Separated But Living Under the Same Roof

[JamesG]

Hello folks,

I am new to this forum and new to the DB community. Until this week I had never heard of DB. I bought the book and am stunned at how clearly it speaks to my situation. (I wanted to buy a copy for my W and say, "This is us!", but I did not.)

Here is the backstory: W and I have been married 7 1/2 years (together 14 years). We have three children under 5 years of age. Both of us come from divorced families. As a result, we have always put the children first. Over time, we ended up tending to their needs more than our own.

We gradually became roomates. She did the lion's share of the child rearing and I spent a lot of time at work and pursuing hobbies. We tried couples' counseling on more than one occassion but after short-term successes we would always revert to a pattern that involved us not acting as a team, lots of score-keeping, resentment, disappointment, and arguing. The physical realtionship came and went; but, always the emotional content and the connection was lacking. Meanwhile, the arguing was growing more intense. (For example, we would have a great Friday and Saturday only to have a knock-down-drag-out argument on Sunday.)

About three years ago, W went and spoke to a lawyer regarding filing. She chose not to file at that time. For the last year, she has been asking for a separation. Each time she brought up the subject I resisted, calling it a "last resort." Eventually, in October, she told me that she wanted to separate immediately. We began living apart that night; we took turns staying at the marital home with the children--alternating nights, 4 a week for her, 3 for me. After a little less than a month of following the "alternating arrangement," she went to see the same lawyer. She told me later the same day that she was going to file as soon as she made some arrangements (I believe the issue was/is money for the lawyer's fee). She also told me that she was "moving back in" because it was too hard to be separated from the children every other day. She proposed that we create a schedule that would allow me to visit the kids at the house and then leave. My legal counselor advised against that arrangement and told me to move back into the marital home as well. As a result, we are now separated but living together in the marital home. (We are sleeping in separate bedrooms. Although she has told me that she finds the arrangment "uncomfortable," there have been no arguments or disputes of any kind; in fact, we had a quick dinner out together last night to discuss the holidays, after which she thanked me several times for keeping the communication open watching the children so she could go shopping.) She and the kids spend Saturday nights at her father's house.

At the outset of the separation I spent considerable time trying to get her to talk with me; I pursued, begged, pleaded, sent e-mails and texts, said "I love you," etc. None of these efforts were productive in the least. Since encountering DB (this week), I can see why and, as a result, I have backed off and am giving her space.

Since the separation I have been seeing a counselor and working on myself and my issues. I have been reading books and getting rid of a lot of clutter--both physical (an issue in the marriage) and emotional--that I let build up in my life. I believe I am making progress (my W has said that she can see my progress and the progress I am making as a parent--she says she has no longer has worries about me as a parent). Unfortunately for me (because I want the marriage to work), she has also told me that she does not believe that my changes make any difference for our marriage. She has told me that she does not hate me and is not angry at me and does not want to keep the children from me but that she does not want to take the "risk" of getting back together to make another go of our marriage. She says she has tried many times in the past and that each effort failed and that there is no point in trying again; in addition, she said she feels "free" from the weight of the relationship now.

We are scheduled to attend an "out-of-court" D seminar in mid-December. The group putting on the event is a legal-religious organization that attempts to have couples put their children first when working out their differences using D coaches and lawyers committed to a collaborative process. I believe my W is waiting to obtain the information from this event before making her next (legal) move.

There is a lot more background, e.g., emotional interactions outside the M, home renovation project, etc., but that is where the M stands in a nutshell.

The prosepct of losing my W and family is devastating and has hit me like "a ton of bricks." My previously-closed eyes are wide-open to my shortcomings and the role that I played in bringing our M to this point. Although painful, this knowledge has motivated me to work on myself, which I know and can see is incredibly necessary and benefical. Still, my heart is sick and my stomach is in knots every day. Being hopeful and patient is incredibly challenging, especially when a person has no idea how a situation will play out. I want so much for to reunify with my wife and family. Any thoughts from other members of the forum are welcome and would be appreciated greatly.

Thank you.

[CO1978]

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone here. I am in a very similar situation, and I am getting great support and advice here. Try to stay strong (easier said than done, I know) and keep up with your self improvements.

[sandi2]

Hi James, and welcome to our community here at DB. I'm so glad that you've read the book, but remember that it is just for you....not her. The Divorce Remedy is Divorce Busting updated. These books and this board are going to give you the tools you'll need to survive the journey ahead of you.

A few things you need to know, your posts will be fully monitored in the beginning, so if it seems slow to show up on the board, just be patient.

If you share a computer with your W, you may want to erase any history to this site. I'm not suggesting you be dishonest, but again, the information here will be for you....not W.

It is important to post every day possible, b/c that will keep us....more connected, and builds your support group.

IMHO it's better to stick to one thread instead of trying to post in more than one forum here at DB. I think the mods like for us to start a new thread after about ten pages of replies. Something to do with bogging down the system....IDK. No biggie.

So......here we go......

There are two words you'll hear till you get sick of it, and those 2 are "time" and "patience". This took years to get where you are now, so don't expect it to mend quickly.

Living together under the same roof can be horrible, but OTOH, you have a tremendous opportunity that separated LBH's don't have. I'll get to that later.

It is vital that you calm yourself and never operate out of fear. You feel the fear chomping at your heals b/c you don't want to lose your W and the M. The thought of your family breaking apart is enough to paralyze you. So, the first thing is to take deep breaths and focus on [i]yourself[/i].....only yourself (and the kids). Notice I left out the W. When your focus is on what she is doing, or saying, or thinking......you will not be making progress. Okay? That's the first thing you have to get under control....your fear.

Speaking of "control", the only person in this M that you can control is James. The only person you can "fix" is James. So when she does something that would ordinarily upset you.....remind yourself that you don't control her. You will feel more free from that burden, when you put it into practice. And, you'll get those chances every single day. So you've been warned!

If you have not read Michele's article on the WAW Syndrome (home page here at DB) then please do that right now. It describes the WAW very well. Even though the two of you are under the same roof......she's a WAW, b/c it's what's in her heart that makes her a WAW. There's another term that has been used here on the board.....a WW (wayward wife). A wayward wife can remind you of a rebellious teenager! You wonder what on earth has happened to change this woman. You don't even know who she is anymore! Am I right? Well, I can tell you who she isn't. She isn't the girl you fell in love with and M. But.....then I bet she could say the same about you, huh? So again, I warn you to be prepared to continue seeing this stranger who is residing inside your W's body, and don't even waste your energy trying to figure her out. Your job is not to figure her out, nor to rescue her, nor to fix her. Your job will be discussed by other members advising you what to do and don't do.

I don't know if you've ever been a goal setter or not, but you need to set a couple of short, achievable goals. Break it down into smaller steps. We all can help you with some of the steps.

I hope you'll do something I'm going to suggest for the rest of this week. I want you to think of your W as if she is nothing more than a co-worker. You are polite, nice, mannerly, etc. You can discuss matters regarding schedules, things regarding the children, and day to day things as if you'd do with any other co-worker in business. You may have to think of yourself as being "professional" when you're in the presence of your W. Don't beat-up this idea by thinking it's hypocritical...but rather, think of this as a plan to survive the rest of this week.

BTW, James, I was a WAW. My marriage has survived. There is hope for your marriage. So don't give up!

P.S. Weekends & holidays may be slower around here than through the week, so don't be discouraged.

[workinghardguy]

Welcome James... sorry you're here... but if you have to be anywhere while in this mess, this is a good place.

I can relate... My W and I are still living together in the same bedroom and in the same bed. We have a S5 together and a SS11 and SD9 from her first marriage. And while the older two are not mine, I have been parenting them since they were 3 and 1 so they may as well be. W and I have been in this mess since 9/9, so almost three months. She wants a D some time next year once we clean up some fiscal matters. Yesterday I came home to find her online drafting divorce papers.

Sandi's advice is great and follow it. Also prepare yourself for a whole of "distancing" from her. She will say things and do things to push you away. When you start to gravitate towards each other she will then violently turn away again. My W has told her friends, told my friends, hidden from Facebook that we are married, told her family, deleted all pictures of us from Facebook, and most recently put me on the customized list of people who do not get her Facebook updates.

Sandi is right that your W is not the person you married anymore and neither are you. My W married me largely as a provider and security. But when she lost her job and our financial house got messy that didn't fit any more, plus she had grown somewhat past that. There's a lot more involved and it's never one thing, but know that what you are hearing is not unusual or unique.

A couple basic concepts to start on:
1. This is not all your fault. Right now you feel it is. You will beat yourself up and feel horrible and like a failure. Stop. It took two to get you here, and she played a role too. You at least are owning up to your issues and willing to work on it, she is willing to run away.
2. Detach. Stop owning your W's emotional state. She chooses to be mad, sad, angry, hurt or whatever. That's her problem.
3. In your W's mind she has already left your marriage. Sorry to be the one to say this, but that's how WAW's operate. This is hard to hear and hurts, but it is what it is. It doesn't mean she lacks feelings for you or can't return to the M; it just means she isn't in the M right now. So don't do things or think of things in the mindset of "if I do this maybe she won't quit on our M" she pretty much already has.
4. Patience. You are ultimately in control here. You two are only done when you choose to be done and give up. Even if she divorces you things still aren't done. It's when you choose to no longer go on that it truly is over.

Sorry... my S wants me to sit with him for a while so I have to go... guess the coloring got old And since I'm GALing tonight I want to get some time in before I head out. But take care of yourself, exercise if you don't already, and get sleep. This is an ultramarathon you've started. I'm sure we'll write again.

[JamesG]

Thank you for the support, CO1978. I appreciate it very much. For me, the loneliness and isolation that has gone hand-in-hand with the separation has been, at times, overwhelming and debilitating. The roller-coaster ride of ups and downs is also very challenging: there are days that I know I am making personal progress (and I feel very confident, empowered, and good about that) only to feel deflated later when my W seemingly takes little notice of the changes that I am making (especially with regard to how such changes directly address her previous complaints about me and our M). Being patient with the process and continuing to work on myself in a context where I am receiving so little feedback from my W are among my biggest challenges at this point. I am grateful to know that I can rely on the support and advice of the members of this forum during these difficult times.

[JamesG]

Thank you for your thoughtful advice, sandi2. I appreciate it.

I have not read DR yet. I intend to do so. I understand that I am not to share DB/DR with my W. The challenge is that in reading DB, I have found that there are literally hundreds of sentences in the book that speak directly to arguments/points/issues that my W has raised during the course of our M. Had I known about the content of this book one, two, or three years ago, when the M was in such a place that I could have handed my W my underlined and starred copy, said that the book truly spoke to me about our experience, and asked her to read it, she would have done so without hesitation--and then we would have discussed it. Obviously, the circumstances now are substantially different and were I to hand her DB she would likely be pushed away/turned off because she already has checked out of the M in her heart. (As an example, before discovering DB, I gave her an article about Judith Wallerstein's research on the impact of D on children. (My W has repeatedly said that her principle concern about a D is the well being of the children; and, she has told me that she has previously stayed in the marriage because she did not want the children hurt by D.) My W obtained a copy of the Wallerstein book but, instead of reflecting on the long-term impact of D on children as a reason to work on our M, she took notes from the text (made a "blueprint," if you will) of what to avoid in the D process in order to damage the children the least.)

With regard to some of your other points: we do not share a computer so that is not a concern.

Time and patience are very tough concepts for me to execute. This is especially true now that I feel that I have finally woken up to my role in our M and I am desperate to keep my family together. I agree that the issues my W and I are confronting are the product of years of disappointment, negative interaction, poor communication, disproportionate levels of participation in the M, and lack of unconditional love. One of my biggest challenges is that after recognizing these issues, rather than communicate more, etc., I am to communicate "less." That said, I will heed your advice about interacting as "professionals" for the rest of the week and see where it leads.

You are absolutely correct about my fears. Point well made.

Thank you for your comments on who I can "control" and who I can "fix." I must continue to remind myself that the work I am doing is for me. I must continue to avoid any attempt to seek her reassurance. I will strive to focus solely on myself and the children.

I will locate the WAW article and read it. Thank you. And, yes, you are absolutely correct: it feels as if I do not know my W any more (and, yes, she could say the same thing about me, without a doubt).

I am more than happy to work on goal setting. Do you have any recomendations?

Again, I appreciate all of your thoughtful advice and encouragement--I need every bit of it.

[JamesG]

Thank you for your kind words, workinghardguy. I appreciate them.

I spent the first six weeks of our separation beating myself up pretty good. During that time I began to come to terms with the role I played in the breakdown of our M. I took responsibility for my (in)actions during conversations and in written communications with my W. She has acknowledged that she knows that we both played a role in bringing the M to this point. The primary difference between us is contained in your point #3: her response (at least for now) to the current state of our M is to escape/leave/run from the M and mine has been to work my tail off to attempt to "wake up" personally and to save our M. You are absolutely correct when you write that she has already left the M. She has. In her heart, I know that we are no longer together. Knowing her, I suspect she has a clear vision of how her life (and the lives of our children) will look in the future--a future that includes me as a parent to the children but not as a spouse. She has told me that she did not reach the decision to separate/D lightly or quickly but that she is now "there;" she has told me that she believes that she is ahead of me emotionally with regard to a D because she has been thinking about it for a long time; and, she has told me that the reason she does not want to give a changed/new/more enlightened/engaged H (me) another chance is that the risk is too high. When I have asked her to be specific about the risk, she has told me the risk is risk of losing any more of her life to a bad M.

Thank you for the advice on detachment. I have a tendency to worry about my W's emotional state, to ask her if she is ok. Again, to continue to improve, I need to continue to focus on myself.

Patience, a powerful but daunting word. I will work on it. I am committed to being in the M until I no longer have the choice.

I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I am hopeful that whatever it is that you desire from your M will come to be. Thank you again for your response.

[sandi2]

Before going any further, I want to ask about this b/c I might forget by the time I get to the end of my post.

We are scheduled to attend an "out-of-court" D seminar in mid-December. The group putting on the event is a legal-religious organization that attempts to have couples put their children first when working out their differences using D coaches and lawyers committed to a collaborative process. I believe my W is waiting to obtain the information from this event before making her next (legal) move.

Whose idea was this seminar? Here's what I see that happens a lot.....a WAW will agree to attend C sessions (or some other type mtg.) with her LBH, but after the fist or second meeting....she then announces (usually at the meeting) that she's made up her mind to go through D procedures. So unless this is a court ordered type of meeting, could you get out of it? Could all meetings centered around the MR be postponed until after the end of the year? I'm just asking b/c that would buy you some time and doing all that during December has to be a nightmare! I agree with your thoughts about how she plans to use this meeting to promote a D.


Okay, so let's look at some goal setting. I think you may have stumbled over your first goal to reach:

I have a tendency to worry about my W's emotional state, to ask her if she is ok.

So what do you think about reaching for midnight this coming Sunday, without asking her (not even one time) if she's okay? If that's too hard, then how about getting through 48 hrs? If you don't make it without slipping up, then observe to see if it is more out of habit, or if something specific caused you to ask. But, here's the thing.....this is a behavior pattern that needs to be broken, and if you can make it through 48 hrs or midnight Sunday, you will be on your way to becoming a more attractive man. Once you stop checking to see if she's ok, then that alone is going to have a stronger, more positive influence on your W.

I'm really glad you brought this up b/c most men want to rescue the fragile damsel in distress. One of many big 180's for you will stop doing what "seems" to be natural or normal. You may have very legitimate reasons for worry over her emotional state, but this is the time, right here and now, to focus on not asking her. Don't ask if anything might be wrong, or if she's okay, etc. Once we have enough time to give you more detailed information describing your role now, the pieces will start to fit.

Your WAW has made an adult decision to leave her M and break up her family. So now, she needs to put her big girl panties on. What do you need to do? You give her the space to learn how to wear those big-girl panties all by herself! You don't run to her if she seems distressed. You don't hover trying to shield her from anything that might be unpleasant. You don't take a temperature check to make sure she's okay. In a sense, it's very much like dealing with a teenager. You have to allow her to experience the consequences of her own decisions. That's tough to do, but as long as you try to make everything okay for her, she will continue to make her life and the lives of you and the children.....pretty much hell on earth.

In order for you to look more "attractive" in the eyes of your WAW, you need to pull back from her, and I think you've read that, but maybe you don't realize how much or all the ways to pull back. Here's another goal to set. Stop giving her your undivided attention unless she is speaking to you. That means that you aren't so available to her. Don't be rude or act like a jerk who has no manners, but remember.....she's a co-worker. That's what she wants, right? Stay off the phone/computer unless it has high importance regarding kids. This will be harder than you think. Retraining patterns!

Changing the subject just a little bit here, but how much help does she have with the children and/or chores with housework?

[JamesG]

Thank you, Sandi2, for your considerate thoughts. In response:

The seminar came about as follows: after my W went to a lawyer (early November) and then told me that her filing was an inevitability, I remembered hearing about the "out-of-court" D program offered in our State. I sent my W the program's information in an e-mail and asked her if the program was something that she would be willing to consider as an alternative to what she said she was going to do. She read the program's FAQs and told me that she was very interested in learning more about the program's "collaborative" services. (This is in keeping with her repeated statements that she wants to put the children first during the D process.) The program has one orientation meeting for new couples each month. The Decemember meeting is on the 10th. There is a small fee to attend the meeting (which I said that I would cover); during the orientation a lawyer, a mental-health professional, and a financial planner discuss D; the meeting is held at a local church and lasts about an hour. The meeting is not court-ordered.

I would love to reschedule the meeting; however, my concern is that if I try to reschedule my W (1) will go back to her lawyer because she does not want to wait any longer to "get the ball rolling," and/or (2) will accuse me of failing to follow through with the previously-agreed-upon plan (something that has been an on-going criticism during our M) and/or (3) will see the delay as attempt to slow down the D process (something that she knows that I do not want and that she says that she wants). I would appreciate the opportunity to have more time to demonstrate how awake I have become to our relationship and how I have changed but, honestly, I do not know how to propose it to my W. Do you have any suggestions?

Good suggestion on the goal. Will do. Co-worker only. Got it. Frankly, after my contact with DB, I have made a concerted effort to stop pursuing through attempting to have talks, sending lengthy, heart-felt e-mails, etc. I have found myself slipping at times, e.g., saying during conversations that she has initiated in various contexts that she looks attractive, is a good mother, and is a hard worker.

A few other things:

One thing my W has told me is that because I was absent from the M in the past, she has had to handle everything on her own and, therefore, the prospect of going it alone does not bother her. (The point being, I am not certain that she believes a D will present much of a change in terms of her wearing the big-girl pants.) To answer your question, presently, I am helping with all the household work; I do the dishes, the laundry, make the bed, run the vaccuum, help with/do the children's baths, etc. Much to my shame, my W is correct, I did not do many of these things in the past. Frankly, given the way I have stepped it up, on many nights there are very few chores for her to do. I should like your opinion on whether my new-found (and long-overdue) contributions to issues of family maintenance are working in my best interest.

In keeping with the spirit of working on myself, I spent the majority of yesterday de-cluttering our basement (the accumulation of clutter being one of the on-going issues my W has with me). The trash is in bags and ready to go to the curb. I have been de-cluttering since the S in October. As a result, we are now able to move more freely in the basement. This de-cluttering was very important to me because the accumulation of junk has always bothered me. I simply did not do enough about it until I realized what a negative impact it has made on our M. Prior to DB, I would point out my progess with this process; after yesterday's clean up, I said nothing.

Yesterday also presented a hiccup: my W took the children to her family's house for the holiday. I was not invited. She and the kids spent the night. I forgot/don't remember being told that they were going to spend the night. I asked about the sleep-over provisions and she told me that she had told me about the sleep over and that she felt that I had not been listening to her (the night before she had a family dinner that I forgot about and she referenced that too when telling me that I had not been listening.) On neither occassion was she/they late nor did she/they have to alter her/their plans in any way. After she said that I was not listening she asked me if I wanted her to cancel the sleep over. I said no and I told her that it was not a big deal and to go and have fun. Did I handle this correctly?

My W has seen a female C three times in the last two weeks. My W says the C is "new agey" and makes her feel comfortable as a woman. My W has told me that she feels "lost" in her life and is discussing those feelings with her C. Other than that, she has not shared any information about her sessions with me. Before DB, I told her that I was willing to listen if she wished to share anything about her sessions with me. Since DB, I have not mentioned the sessions.

I read the WAW article that you recommended. This is my W to a T. She has stopped complaining/nagging. She has told me that she feels resigned to D, that she will always love me but that she is not in love with me, and that it is too late for us. She has told me that she sees that I have changed but does not think that the change makes any impact on the M (it is good only for me and the children, in her opinion). Moreover, she has said that she (1) does not believe that real change can happen as fast as it has for me, (2) is skeptical that the change she acknowledges that she sees will last, and (3) thinks it is too late for our M in any event due to the years of disappointments and unmet expectations. Interestingly, before reading DB but after the S, I did thank my W for complaining/nagging because, as I told her, I finally realized that it meant that she cared about me and our M. She said, "You should have thought about that then." I told her that I wish I had but that I realized it now and was living the change. She reiterated that such a change was great for me and the kids but that she did not want to give our M another try.

I am heart sick about the role I played in bringing our relationship to this point. I am plagued with thoughts along the lines of "If only I had realized then what I realize now" and "If only I had made the changes that I am making now years ago." At the same time, I know that the work that I am doing to change is real and will, in the end, make me a better person. Still, going through this process is incredibly difficult.

Thank you again, Sandi2.

[JamesG]

Sandi2, here is an update since my post yesterday: W acknowledged my de-cluttering efforts from Thursday. I said, "Thanks, it has needed to be done for a long time" and then little more. Later, instead of lingering around on the same floor or trying to watch TV with her, I told her I was going to work in the basement. Surprisingly, she came down to the basement about five minutes later and asked me if anything was wrong. I told her no, that I had some projects that I needed to handle (further de-cluttering, etc.). She seemed (maybe I am reading too much into the situation) like she wanted to talk a little but the children kept coming into the room and interrupting and even though we sent them out several times, she eventually gave up and I did not pursue. Later, she seemed a little put off, cold, and distant (again, maybe I'm just reading into the situation). My conern is that she may be interpreting my giving her space and distancing as me not caring or me giving up on our M. (When I told her that I needed to take care of a few things today, she mentioned that she was not asking me what I was doing. The way she said it had a we-are-going-our-separate-ways vibe.) In my heart, I desperately want to let her know that I love her deeply and want our M to work but I say nothing because I do not want to turn her off or push her away. I also want to ask her to take one more chance on our M but I told her that pre-DB so she knows. Again, my concern is that she may be interpreting my giving her space, etc., as me not caring about our M and I do not want to convey that message. Any suggestions?

I'm working hard to GAL: increased exercise, working on long-neglected personal projects, de-cluttering, taking time away from the house, reading, and I feel great about these long-overdue efforts. At the same time, I am starting to feel the strain of living under the same roof and not being able to have any emotional or physical interaction with my wife. The sense of rejection is intense.

Two, final questions: (1) is there a productive way/way at all to get the DB information into my W's hands/head? I am not sure she is ready to read/digest it but, it speaks directly to our M. Second, is there any benefit/do you recommend me attempting to contact my W's C to schedule a meeting to share information with the C about me?

Thanks again.