wife won't admit PA with OM

[Accuray]

25 we are saying the same thing, although I definitely felt the long term EA would be worse than a one night PA, and the worst of all would be a long term EA that went PA.

Looked into Retrouvaille, there's one here in January. W won't go, but it does look good.

Accuray

[25yearsmlc]

25 we are saying the same thing, although I definitely felt the long term EA would be worse than a one night PA, and the worst of all would be a long term EA that went PA.

Looked into Retrouvaille, there's one here in January. W won't go, but it does look good.

Accuray

Retrovaille really is a Godsend and I'm grateful for it. But we were in the mood for fixing things in ourselves AND we were willing to do the follow up although we didn't know how it would be for us, commuting...(the workshop was in a different place so we had a HUGE drive for the follow up and that was tough).


As for the one night stand, to me, the one night "anything" is something that I can say now, would not necessarily, matter a whole lot.

When I was first married the very thought of that horrified me. But that was then. I'm wiser and less judgemental and rigid now. And I'm more secure.

And as for the emotional thing, or "emotional affair", there is a gray area there that no one is addressing. IF a man KNEW that the EA would NEVER go beyond talk,

there are plenty of men who would LIKE it if someone else got to hear their wives problems...sad, but true. Maybe that also applies to husbands having EAs but since women tend to emote and talk more, it is more likely to be a woman with issues talking to OM, than the reverse.

Second, there are topics we share with our girlfriends AND a male friend that might be something our spouse is not comfortable talking about, like the death of someone or disease OR politics or religion.

You may have a legit reason to discuss it with a friend and yet suddenly if the friend is the oppsoite sex ---OMG- it's a sin.

My real point is, It's a lot harder to know when you are "over the line" in an EA

than a PA....

Simply put- a Physical affair requires some ACT on your end, and an EA doesn't....

I am sure now SOMEONE out there who is hurting, will want to quibble about that and pretend that "All EAs are wrong and just the same and just as wrong as a PA!!" and I've seen very rigid people posting that here.

I always wonder, how that rigid viewpoint and hammering home that point, repeatedly, is working in their marriage...


At the time of my "almost PA", which is how I would describe it, I didn't feel my interactions with OM were inappropriate - UNTIL we both wanted more.

Jake, your comments suggest to me, that you are more threatened by the PA and in part that's bc you know

for YOUR WIFE, like most women, a PA ALSO MEANS AN EA...

so of course you'd prefer only an EA.

A lot of men can have either or both with a woman. But Not so much women...

To my feminist friends who want to harangue about that^^^ comment, hey, if you are over 40 you can address it but otherwise, wait til then... things may not be so black and white when you are a bit older.


(I hope I have not managed to offend everyone by now...)

[In_Shock]

(sorry for thread-jack ----- hi 25. hadn't heard from you lately. wanted to say hi ((hugs))

m

[Accuray]

25,

Male friends are certainly fine. Pat Love has an excellent document on her web site about what's "over the line" in an EA.

My W was telling OM she loved him, she thought of nothing but him, she wanted to fly away to a beach with him, not being with him was torture, etc. Multiple "I love you" declarations per day. Lots of sneaking around and secret nights out for dinner and drinks, taking off work secretly to go for walks together for the afternoon, secretly meeting for drinks after work, having lunch together every day.

That, to me, is an "Emotional Affair". Having a male friend who you sometimes discuss your problems with is simply not the same. On the Pat Love site, she says that if you wake up and your first thought is of OM, if you dress to be appreciated by OM, if you are emotionally bound to OM to the exclusion of H, you're over the line.

Accuray

[jake999]

For my situation, I know that this was more than "just friends" and may be defined as an EA at a minimum. Hundreds of texts per day and tons of minutes on the phone and calls placed as soon as I'm not around tell me that it wasn't just physical attraction or one night stand.

She told me that their "friendship" started because she liked talking to him and getting his viewpoint on things that were going on with her life. She even said that if she was able to talk to me then she wouldn't have had to talk to him. That doesn't really bother me if it ends there, because we are working on fixing that now. However, I have evidence that some would say is murky/unclear and others would say is crystal-clear that a PA was going on. That's what is really hurting me.

After reading all of your comments I'm really understanding that I should be grateful to even be this fortunate in my reconciliation opportunity right now. And I am. I kinda look at it like my W ultimately chose me over him in some sort of competition in her mind. Why?

I think about my W with the OM a lot and keep envisioning them together. Anytime we are together and I get the urge to be closer to her, hold her hand, give her a little kiss, etc, I think that the OM probably had the same thoughts since he is a normal person like everyone else and that he probably did the same things.... it makes me sick. I wasn't her first relationship so it's naive to say that she's never done those things with someone else... but to do them while with me is something I never thought would happen.

I'm having a hard time forgiving her. We have got along well since the last argument that I posted about. But I think that her complete lack of remorse and all the lies she told are eating at me. Will that go away? Let's say that the PA truly never happened... what would she have to say to me to convince me of that? The only thing I can think of is to have a 100% honest and logical conversation about every possible piece of evidence I have. From what everyone on here has said, that will drive us apart and probably won't ever happen. So how do I just accept it and move on? I want to, but am struggling.

Btw, thank you all for your continued insights.

[Hopeful321]

Jake--I felt like I was reading about me.

For my situation, I know that this was more than "just friends" and may be defined as an EA at a minimum. Hundreds of texts per day and tons of minutes on the phone and calls placed as soon as I'm not around tell me that it wasn't just physical attraction or one night stand.

I discovered my H was sending a female coworker over hundred text messages a day for 3 months. As soon as I would leave for work, he would text her. And I got the same speech, "WE ARE JUST FRIENDS." We had separated lasty year, he told me he did not want to hear from me at all. The entire time he was gone, they were texting back and forth all day long and everyday.

She told me that their "friendship" started because she liked talking to him and getting his viewpoint on things that were going on with her life. She even said that if she was able to talk to me then she wouldn't have had to talk to him. That doesn't really bother me if it ends there, because we are working on fixing that now. However, I have evidence that some would say is murky/unclear and others would say is crystal-clear that a PA was going on. That's what is really hurting me.


He told me the exact same thing.


It will take to time to get over it. He moved back in last year after 3 weeks of separation and I never forgave him for it and it ate me up. And now we have been separated for 4 1/2 months and I am finally healing from it. I made the mistake by letting him move back last year, but I haven't this time. Only time will heal you. I have decided to put all that behind me and move forward.

[sandi2]

Good grief! How do these people ever get any work done when they are on the phone TM all the time?

[Accuray]

Jake:

I think about my W with the OM a lot and keep envisioning them together. Anytime we are together and I get the urge to be closer to her, hold her hand, give her a little kiss, etc, I think that the OM probably had the same thoughts since he is a normal person like everyone else and that he probably did the same things.... it makes me sick.

I felt this way too, this will get better with time. You'll have fewer episodes eventually, then they won't last as long when you do have them. Unfortunately the last thing to go will be in the intensity.

Your W will notice when you're feeling this way. You may want to come up with a code word or something to let her know that you're having an episode so she understands it's not something she's done recently. You can also Google for "affair recovery", there are checklists of things she can do to help you heal.

For now, however, very important not to beat up W with blame, guilt, and your sadness. Remember, she was on the fence -- if you're no fun to be with, that's not going to help things. People like a spouse who makes them feel good about themselves, if you're beating her up emotionally she's not going to feel good about herself and eventually she won't feel good about you either.

I wasn't her first relationship so it's naive to say that she's never done those things with someone else... but to do them while with me is something I never thought would happen.

Agreed, at one point W told me to just think of her EA like an ex-BF. ex-BF doesn't bother me at all, *because I wasn't there*. No comparison, it's the betrayal, lying and rejection that hurt.

I'm having a hard time forgiving her. We have got along well since the last argument that I posted about. But I think that her complete lack of remorse and all the lies she told are eating at me. Will that go away?

Here's the thing, you're very lucky and you don't realize it. You would be doing much much worse if she had the EA and did NOT want to come back. Imagine how you'd be feeling then! Forgiving her is hard, but it's a gift you give yourself. Don't expect the remorse, you may never get it. You need to move on and not expect that. Very hard I know, but a reality.

These feeling will go away (1) as time passes (2) as you feel better about yourself and become a better spouse (3) as W consistently earns your trust. If you become the best husband you will be, you'll feel confident that she's not going to need to go anywhere else, why should she? Then these feelings will subside, but that's you working on you versus her doing anything.

Let's say that the PA truly never happened... what would she have to say to me to convince me of that? The only thing I can think of is to have a 100% honest and logical conversation about every possible piece of evidence I have. From what everyone on here has said, that will drive us apart and probably won't ever happen. So how do I just accept it and move on? I want to, but am struggling.

If you can't move on, then you need to address it. I'm just saying go into that with your eyes wide open and know the risks. She's already told you that a PA did not happen. To go over every piece of evidence will effectively be backing her into a corner and trying to force her to admit she lied. How do you feel when someone does that to you?

She has admitted to EA right? You already know there was a betrayal, how will knowing it was more severe help you?

If you can yell "Ah HAH!" and point your finger at her, that may feel good in the moment, but will it feel good an hour later? How will it feel the next day? How much work will you have to do to pick up the pieces after that?

If you absolutely MUST go there, tell her you need to put your fears and suspicions to rest. You want to "rip the bandaid off" and move forward so you can put all this behind you. You may want to tell her you'll email what you want to talk about in advance so she has time to think about it and doesn't feel blindsided. If there is any way you can avoid doing this, though, try to.

Accuray

[Harrier]

Let's say that the PA truly never happened... what would she have to say to me to convince me of that?

She can't. Jake, I'm going to tell you what my W told me. There is only one answer you'd be happy with. Her admitting to a PA, because it's clear you still think something happened.

The only thing I can think of is to have a 100% honest and logical conversation about every possible piece of evidence I have. From what everyone on here has said, that will drive us apart and probably won't ever happen. So how do I just accept it and move on? I want to, but am struggling.

But even that would not be enough. You could go over every piece of evidence and short of a smoking gun. It will NEVER be enough. Your mind with twist most of the evidence to the way you want you want to believe.

But again, you are looking for a quick fix here. It's not going to happen.

At some point you have to either let it go or decide you can't and move on. If you can't that's okay too..some people have deal breakers.

But you are doing no good dwelling on it. NONE.

Believe me I speak from personal experience. In my situation it was not even close to the norm - maybe 2-3 text per day, 3-4 phone calls a week (none outside of work hours), occasional emails, but they'd go days w/o emailing. But there was no doubt as to what it was.

I did get lucky in one respect, my W admitted it was an EA and apologize more than once and displayed a lot of remorse.(I didn't ask her to).

but even that wasn't enough for me until I reached a point where I could be open to forgiving and moving on. Not forgetting or not a free pass. Strangely, a lot of my trust in my W has been restored.

[Accuray]

Wow Harrier, you were pretty lucky too. I did have the challenging "evidence discussion" with W at one point. Prior to having it I convinced myself that I could just do it once and be done with it.

Per Harrier's note, that didn't work, I really felt the same way after as I did before. I was able to better understand some of what I found, but I really didn't feel better about any of it, nor did I fully believe I had the truth.

Here's the next place you're going to go -- pretend you fully go through all the evidence you have. The next thing you're going to ask yourself is "What don't I know? What haven't I found?"

Then, you will start pestering W to reveal anything else that you might not have evidence for "what else aren't you telling me!" That will also drive you nuts for weeks. You might then find additional "evidence", confront W again, and she'll say she didn't tell you about it because she didn't think it was important, then you'll stew on that for weeks.

See the point? It's a merry-go-round that you just can't get off. There will *ALWAYS* be more questions, and you can't know everything. In addition, W has already altered her view of the past to be more comfortable with it, so she may no longer accurately remember what she has done or said. You just can't know. I have to get to the point where you accept it, or decide that you can't and move on, as Harrier suggests.

--Accuray