Another crisis.....but H opening up now

[angel61]

So he did come back today after all.

However I sensed a difference in how he is interacting with me. On the phone, he did not seem to want to talk to me longer, saying he needed to sleep after a minute of convo, and then the next day he said his phone was dying.

When he got home, he did not look me in the eye and was irritable. I verbalized to him that I feel that his barrier was up, and he just said no, no such thing. When I brought up the topic of the post session today, he said "ok, ok we'll go in a way that sounded like he was just being forced to go.

I think he has been in touch with OW again.

I am wrestling with my self on calling him out or not. My mind says no, he said he will handle it his way, OW will be gone in at most a couple of weeks time, maybe he is just feeling the withdrawal, maybe he has given himself his own internal deadline. Once OW leaves, it will be hard for them to keep in touch as the time difference is terrible and the cost of calling is great. Although with skype and facetime, it should not be a huge barrier. It really should be his determination to keep the M that should motivate him. I know he has a timeline in his head, as he always has for everything, being the control freak he is.

Of course, inside me there is the person who wants to have it all out with him. When things are not going well, I go back to having fantasies of freedom. Ands thinkingof all the things I can do if H were not here, if I didn't have to go through all this. And it is really an exercise in self control and patience to stop, and remind myself of why I want to keep this M. Thats why I am here, at 6 something in the morning, locked in the bathroom and typing my thoughts, venting.

OK, time for some thanksgiving. At least we are going today. I asked him if he really wanted to go, because he didn't sound like he did, and he said no, he was fine with going.

Well, nobody ever said piecing was not bumpy. It might yet be the longest part of this journey, so I better keep my seatbelt fastened, and also curb my desire to give up and flee, just when we are getting close.

[AJM]

Buckle up Angel. You have learned so much about this journey, and it is far from over.

Hang in there!

AJ

[25yearsmlc]

So he did come back today after all.

However I sensed a difference in how he is interacting with me. On the phone, he did not seem to want to talk to me longer, saying he needed to sleep after a minute of convo, and then the next day he said his phone was dying.

When he got home, he did not look me in the eye and was irritable. I verbalized to him that I feel that his barrier was up, and he just said no, no such thing. When I brought up the topic of the post session today, he said "ok, ok we'll go in a way that sounded like he was just being forced to go.

I think he has been in touch with OW again.

I am wrestling with my self on calling him out or not. My mind says no, he said he will handle it his way, OW will be gone in at most a couple of weeks time, maybe he is just feeling the withdrawal, maybe he has given himself his own internal deadline. Once OW leaves, it will be hard for them to keep in touch as the time difference is terrible and the cost of calling is great. Although with skype and facetime, it should not be a huge barrier. It really should be his determination to keep the M that should motivate him. I know he has a timeline in his head, as he always has for everything, being the control freak he is.

Of course, inside me there is the person who wants to have it all out with him. When things are not going well, I go back to having fantasies of freedom. Ands thinkingof all the things I can do if H were not here, if I didn't have to go through all this. And it is really an exercise in self control and patience to stop, and remind myself of why I want to keep this M. Thats why I am here, at 6 something in the morning, locked in the bathroom and typing my thoughts, venting.

OK, time for some thanksgiving. At least we are going today. I asked him if he really wanted to go, because he didn't sound like he did, and he said no, he was fine with going.

Well, nobody ever said piecing was not bumpy. It might yet be the longest part of this journey, so I better keep my seatbelt fastened, and also curb my desire to give up and flee, just when we are getting close.

Angel I have little time these days to post...but YES piecing is no picnic.

Very bumpy. Many times you question whether you should have bagged it in the first place.

For US, Retrovaille ended, the questions for the most part...at least for a long time. But every crisis that every marriage has, trigger SOME questions in us, however unsaid or deeply hidden...


But I"m a little bummed he isn't more "Cured"but then again, he was not totally "off" of OW when he went. AND in truth, to me it seems as if we were piecing long BEFORE Retrovaille and then it kickstarted us. Whereas you sort of were on the fence about piecing, just hanging in, seeing "what would happen" as if neither of you had any real control over things...

The post weekend activities will help (They won't hurt the r--unlike some mc's, or t's, I can definitely say I never saw Retrovaille aggravate ANYONE's situation...)

But back to your main point, Piecing isn't easy. We had done it for a year BEFORE going to Retrovaille.

So now you both SAY you want the m to work.

You both SEEM to be trying...and that's got to be enough. You can't study and determine "if he really really means it." Not fair, and it IS controlling and hypocricital of you b/c after all,

what if HE knew of your fantasy life about life wihtout him? Just wondering if there's a double standard.

I urge you NOT to repeat the mistakes of the past. (Besides, there are plenty of new ones to make!)..but seriously, anytime you repeat an old mistake, an old "you" triggers old HIM, and it sets you back so far.

NOT worth all the work...so start fresh each day. Stop staring at him for reciprocity -loved your comment about being willing to GIVE and NOT stare at what you are getting back "from the deal" and then withdrawing if it's not enough.


Just love him as best you can. As he is.


FOR NOW, let that be enough.

You'll know down the road if it's not enough for you.

I'm not totally clear on what you think you could have without him, (your fantasy life) but I actually like that you are CHOOSING to be married, not "trapped in terror" of being alone.

It's empowering to know why you are trying. Remember how you felt during the weekend. IT was real.



((( ))))

[Lotus]

Waiting to hear how the Post session went.

I would not jump to the conclusion that he has been in contact with OW. Read your notebooks again, and believe in the person you spent the weekend with. It is hard not to be suspicious. I was very suspicious, but focusing on the homework and the Post sessions made all the difference. I had to keep my insecurity to myself. That is all it was - insecurity, but it might have enabled me to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory!

[angel61]

Its 5AM here in the island, the last day of our vacation. As I wait for the sunrise, and listen to the howling wind outside, I reflect back on the past year and am thankful of how where I am now.

25, I love your advice on loving him the best I could. I carried those words with me throughout this week. It made me see the effort he put into all our interactions. When we were leaving on Monday, we had a few stressful moments on the trip, but he would make a visible effort to smile and cheer me up, that I even once went over to him and told him "I do think we are improving a lot" and gave him a peck. He seemed pleased.

I brought our Retrouvaille book and the Love Dare, meaning to talk about things while on vacation, but felt that he was already so focused on making things better that I decided just to sit back and watch, and not make any move at "working on he M". No R talk, no M talk, vacation time!

I think it was a good move on my part. Although he had moments of quietness, he generally was so cheerful. I would see him laughing and happy, his expression no longer guarded, and in his eyes, I no longer see the "shark eyes" look.

The 2nd morning we were here, we even ML, after 5 mos! We woke up early from jet lag, and were playfully doing some stretching exercises, when one thing led to another. This happened again after 2 days. I realized that when H said he was working on our sexual relationship when we were at Retro that he really meant it.

I decided to put OW away from my mind. This is probably the last week she will be in the US. H does not seem depressed or distressed that she is leaving. My intuition tells me he is closing that chapter of his life. Of course there will be always worries that he will not fully endit, theat he is writing "finis" only a letter at a time.... but this part I can only leave to God. I demanded a year ago that he end it all, and that only served to make him rebellious. I promised to let him do it his way and I just have to trust him, and God.

I can tell that H is trying his best to understand loving as a decision now. he has not said anything, or shown outwards signs of affection like touching me aside from ML, but he never was really affectionate in the first place. I tell myself not to demand it like before, but instead to just show it, when he is ready.

Lotus, our weekend went well actually. After the post he seemed back to his normal self. he commented that there were always things to learn from the post. He also noticed how some came without their spouses, and told me he felt that it was useless to do so, that if they really wanted to work on their M they should always come together. I did check and find out he had talked to OW on the phone while he was away, and that probably made him depressed. Well, he might just make the connection that OW = depression or unhappiness....again, it might just have been goodbye time. I noticed that OW called him, several times, not the other way around.

25, about me and the double standard.... let me just tell you, one of the reasons I got married at 36, was because I loved my freedom so much. I was single, having fun, with my own money, could do anything I wanted, was professionally way ahead, already a department head in a hospital, driven but impulsive, a risk taker. I am the artistic, creative type, with a temper to match. I am like a man in a sense - I do not even cook, do the groceries, or manage the household. These are things H does for me. He is my complete opposite - traditional, domesticated, organized, treads the straight and narrow.

Getting married to me was clipping my wings.... but I loved my H and my D to death, and gradually learned to compromise and settle. I understand that with a family, risk taking is no longer an option. I let my logical, scientific, thinker self take over, and sometimes, I even tried to emulate my H and become an organizer. I do not believe that being that way is not being myself, its just aother aspect of me taking over. But sometimes, why I sometimes still have that yearning to spread my wings, and I just tell myself that I can do that later, when my D (who by the way has a huge anxiety problem and is absolutely a zero risk taker) is older.

Before I end this post, I do have a question, and some obesrvations which I would like to know if those who have passed through this felt also:

At this point, will it be OK to start showing him affection and love? My H is not the affectionate type, and waiting for him so I can mirror might not work, or might mean a looong time. I am trying to feel him out to see if he is ready, but at this point, I think he will be overwhelmed.

About my feelings: I got so comfortable with DBing and being detached that I am afraid when I have moments of closeness, afraid of opening up and bieng hurt or having expectations. Even during ML, I found myself feeling strange, like being a third person inside me, analyzing my feelings at that point that I could not really get into the feeling of bonding and intimacy.

I find myself wanting closeness but being afraid at the same time. I have to leave the room after a whole day of being together. I find myself at a loss for word, no conversation, when we are together. Normally I am a very loquacious, never running out of things to say kind of person, am witty and entertaining with other people. Now, when I am with H, I desperately search in my mind for a safe topic but could not come up with any.

Is that the effect of training myself not to say anything?

Will my natural ebullience come back?

[Lotus]

I'm always a little stumped by the people who start using DB and then go to Retrouvaille, and then try to combine the two. They really don't go together. And they relate to different stages of reconciliation. DB is developed for the spouse trying to attract a disinterested spouse back. And Retrouvaille is for the couple who are both willing to put effort forth and rebuild the marriage. This is especially true after the weekend, because, those entering the weekend are not necessarily willing to put forth effort nor have the decided to rebuild the marriage.

In DB, you keep your feelings to yourself, and project a happy, carefree image. In Retrouvaille, you dialogue daily (or close to it) and reveal your true feelings.

So here you are, halfway between the two, wondering what to do. And I don't have the answer for you. Perhaps 25 can do a better job. I know that your natural ebullience will come back when you learn to trust again. But when will you learn to trust again? For us, the Post sessions were a crutch that we leaned on. We crawled before we walked, and we walked before we ran. But we went every weekend, and we did all the homework, and a lot of dialoguing.

I can't say how my husband felt. I was in a lot of psychological pain during the process. Trust, learning to trust was so hard. It has to do with forgiving. You can't trust until you truly forgive. And you can't forgive until you trust. That structure! That house of cards that is love! Love, trust, commitment, forgiveness....all at once -- everyday! Or the house of cards will fall.

The fact that you are ML again is huge. It shows his commitment. The heart follows. OW is almost gone. I'd say don't push for anything until she is truly gone. Then go to as many Post sessions as you can. Ask him to dialogue with you, at least 2x per week.

And act like you are dating him. During that period of our reconciliation I was being as sexy and attractive as I could think to be. For example, when he came home from work, I would be wearing a bikini and cooking dinner (this is Florida, it's not that weird), and I would offer him a beer and an hors d'oeuvre, and keep him chatting with me in the kitchen while I fixed the meal. Like I do with company when I have people over. It broke our usual routine of him coming home and retreating to the bedroom and watching tv alone until I called him to dinner. I knew things were better when I really found myself laughing at his jokes. Actually laughing! That hadn't happened in years.

It's a slow process. Don't rush it, but I don't think you should shy away from actually dealing with the process of healing.

[angel61]

HI Lotus,

YOu got me right! I am in a dilemma. But I am sure there is a solution to it. I remember feeling the same way when I first read the Love Dare. Here in the boards, everyone says "eewww, its pursuing" and I did agree, it is pursuing if you do the dares on someone who is disinterested. But it was immensely valuable to me in understanding what unconditional love really is, and led me to being able to forgive (most times, at least), lose most of the anger and resentment, and understand what choosing to love is.

At this point, I am sure there are still some DB principles which would apply, and some of which I have to slowly back away from for the purpose of developing a connection with my H.

Balancing saying enough versus saying too much is tough.

I agree though, H's decision to ML is big, because he is not one to take that lightly. That is why I believe him when he says that he did not have a PA with OW, in that sense, he does tread the straight and narrow. And this sitch is something that taught me to trust in him, in a sense. The realization that in the end he will still do right, no matter how painful for him, is a big one for me.

As I get more ideas on how DB and Retrouvaille can be reconciled, I will post.

Maybe I should move my posts to piecing though? Might be of more relevance over there.

[MynameisMZ]

Yes! Come over to piecing. Just catching the last bits of your sitch. Will catch up more in AM. Time to hit the hay here!

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

Glad to hear things are going so well, and that you've had a good vacation--and ML--together!

I know what you mean by feeling that there's nothing safe left to say, but that is a temporary thing. Partly, it's the result of your changes, as you filter yourself somewhat to prevent any negative interactions the "old" you might have engaged in. Partly, it's because you've recognized times in his crisis when your H was unwilling or unable to hear you, or even directing all his anger and negativity towards anything you said, and you're not yet sure how committed he is.

My suggestion would be that you "reveal" yourself primarily when you observe that he's responsive, or when you're working on Retrouvaille issues together. I found that the period after my H committed to working on the M, but was trying to break the mental addiction to the OW, was a very difficult one for him because he hadn't yet figured out how to deal with his guilt, and because he swung from intense feelings of relief that he was doing the right thing and loved me, and intense feelings of despair that he'd never be happy again during which he couldn't really focus on me. During the latter, he sometimes was able to tell me what was going on in his head, and sometimes just needed to process things alone. It took an incredible amount of willpower to break the feel-good addiction to contacting her/obsessing about her, so that he could get to the point where he felt good about HIMSELF.

Schnarch points out that we need to reveal ourselves to our partners not to get a particular response from them, but as an act of love and self-love. During the beginning of Piecing, I would remind myself that (at times) I needed to speak out and reveal myself because that was the way I wanted our M to continue, without expecting responses from him. However, it was important not to overwhelm H, who was in a very fragile state at the time.

[angel61]

Finally I hear from you again, Cyrena! Thank you, I am reassured.... all these will pass, you have been through this journey.

yes, yes .... exactly as you said. I do filter myself, I catch myself when I say or do things which was the "old" me. I find it easier now to identify the "old" behaviours that caused trouble in my M, but I am also caught in the struggle of not knowing what I am at this point, and how I would like to be, and self-arguments about not being my "real" self, versus being "real" because I now know what is better. I have to modify my behaviour but make sure that it still is within my personality. It does seem so hard to do though because one of the things I realize is that my personality, that of being a catalyst/influencer/creative/risk taker type is the polar opposite of my H, who is the organizer/steady/conscientious/rule follower/conservative type. Do is sound confused? Did you ever go through this "identity" crises?

Retrouvaille is not just re-discovering each other, but truly, it is discovering ones' self. And I think thats why it creates so much food for thought and conversation.

I also perceive the kind of reaction to the OW that my H has. Way back when he first decided in his mind the direction his life was taking, without telling me, I did sense his relief that is why I knew. But for a long time now, he has been struggling with letting go, and I see it. The ML I feel is symbolic for him as his final letting go.

There are still a lot of things that H has to deal with. His guilt. His being able to forgive himself. He still has to deal with all the justifications and rationalizations, which of course he made himself believe. I do realize that turning around his way of thinking will have to come from himself, perhaps helped by outside forces as he becomes more open to learning. he has started to open up, as evidenced by the fact that he went with me to Retrouvaille, at the same time, he still resists doing all the activities, and reading books, I know he is still not ready, and is afraid of coming out of his comfort zone and accepting full responsibility for his actions. As you said, he is still very fragile at tis time, and I do see that he gets easily overwhelmed and sometimes just cannot process and withdraws.

That is why I also am taking it slow. Thank you for your reminder, Cyrena. I will continue taking it one step at a time, and remember to do things out of love, not to elicit a response. That way, I will be true to myself. I always am reminded that one of God's greatest gifts to us is the gift of time, and I will make full use of that. I think I also need that time anyways to sort myself out.