Daughter is not mine...

[thehollowman]

25yrsmlc,

I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my post so thoroughly. It helps to see the mindset/view of the cheating spouse. (Not that I agree with it).

To answer your questions/comments...

ASSUMING YOU WANT A RECONCILIATION...and trust me, it's NOT clear to me that is what you want...


I do want a reconcilliation. At least I think I do. But I want a reconcilliation with the woman I married; the mother of my kids. NOT with this solely career focused woman who used a very difficult time in our lives to justify breaking her vows and destroying her family. Also, please keep in mind many of the things I am posting here are things in my head that I have NOT said to her.

Plus, I don't know what your w SAID her issues in the marriage are. Did she say you are an angry man? IF so, do you see how you are going to FUEL that negative image?

What were her specific complaints about marriage to you and what of those complaints, were valid AND what are you doing about those?


After my daughters diagnosis and numerous hospitalizations I withdrew into severe depression. She at first was understanding and tried to help, send email links, bring books on depression, etc. After a while she became more curt or noncommunicative. She was tired of me sitting around feeling sorry for myself. I gained a lot of weight, I wasn't taking care of myself (hygiene, dress, etc). I had no interest in anything.

She told me on several occasions she was unhappy but it didn't mean anything to me. I wasn't happy either. She slowly started pulling away from me. I later noticed there was less physical affection. Not just sex, mind you, but hugs and other nonintimate signs of affection.

One morning I was actually feeling pretty good and I went into the bathroom while she was getting ready for work. I put my arms around her waist from behind and went to give her neck a kiss. She stiffened up and jerked away. She made a comment about how I am always pawing at her when she is trying to get ready. That I always ruined her hair and makeup.

I didn't know what to say. Later she told me that she was no longer physically attracted to me since I had gained so much weight. As you can imagine that did wonders for my self esteem and self image.

I do not have anger management issues. In fact I am trying to quit being such a "nice guy". My life revolved around making her life easier. I handled virtually all the household responsibilities. I kept the vehicles gased and tuned up. I would go out in the morning during the winter to clean snow off of her windows and warm the car up. I even cleaned her cats' litter boxes out. All of the time. I would arrange my work schedule to accomodate hers. (In case you haven't noticed my "Love Languages" are physical affection and "Acts of Service").

I have my inlaws in town this weekend. They know about her cheating.

how do they know? If YOU told them, what was the goal?

She told her father. She told me that he told her we have all done things in life that we are not proud of. I am sure there was more to the conversation but that is all she told me. But knowing her, and reading between the lines of the letter I got from my inlaws, she left a LOT of things out. If all they know is what she told me that she told them; she left a lot of the story out and minimized anything that would put her in too bad of a light.

The babysitter/cleaning lady/nanny told my cousin that she thinks Audrey is his child.

what?? Who appointed her to do this? Who would say this? FIRE HER....

OMG SO NOT any of her business...shockingly indiscreet and arguably evil...WTH? Never heard of such an outrageous breach of trust.

She is a 65 year old Polish woman who grew up under the Soviets. She doesn't mince words. In fact, if I had listened to her years ago we wouldn't be in this predicament. She told me that something was going on between my wife and douchebag. I refused to believe it. She told me that she would stay over one night and I should drive out to the hotel to surprise her and see if he was with her. Hindsight is 20/20.

My wife's first husband cheated on her when she out of town visiting her mother in the hospital. (At least that is the story she has told me). She would always make a point about how anyone who cheats is the lowest of the low. How could he do that to her while her mother was dying? Yet she did the exact same thing to me while our daughter lay dying. In fact going over old phone bills and calendars I noted that she called me at the hospital one night while she was at the hotel with him. Nice, huh?

Another good thing about the nanny is she says things to Lori that need to be said. She tells her "You no good mother. All the time you leaving and girls crying and waiting for you. You no cook you no do nothing." You can imagine how this goes over with my wife. She has said to me a couple of times that we need to say something to her. Even though she has been with us for so long she has to show some respect to her employer, blah, blah, blah. Trouble is I agree with her.

My wife just spent 5 days in Arizona on business. He was with her. This weekend she leaves for Grand Cayman for 8 days for an industry conference. I am sure he will be there. Every night I have the girls they ask me if mommy is going to come home and why does mommy have to work all of the time.

My cousin is a nurse and asked me if I wanted her to find out about DNA testing. If my cousin suspects this she will probably tell my aunt. Who will probably tell my mom.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? Is this child SO different looking? Or are you telling people? WTH?


Also, my brother-in-law has connected the dots. He knows how old Audrey is. He knows when Lori was fired from her previous job. He knows that she spends an inordinate amount of time with him and travels with him for business. He has been telling me for over a month to have a DNA test done.

YOU need to put a stop to this. Stop them from hurting your d and if you really care about your w's rep, it's up to YOU to stop the rumors...good grief.


The question I am asking myself right now is do I tell my inlaws tomorrow morning. The truth will eventually come out. I have family members now questioning her paternity. Those suspicions will soon reach my mom. If she hasn't already had that silent fear.


Why do they have all these suspicions? Why will "the truth" come out? I'm missing something here...

I've never heard of this many people questioning a child's paternity, when the mother is married. Is the child a different race than you?



We are both caucasian. Obviously my cousin is inquiring because of what the nanny said to her. My brother in law is very sharp and he is simply connecting the dots along the timeline. I think the biggest reason some people are starting to contemplate this is because of what my wife has done/ is doing. She had cut off almost all contact with my family. She has moved out and is seeming to lead a different life as a different person. No one understands why. We didn't fight, etc. The trauma of the loss of my daughter is what my mom is telling herself (and giving my wife the benefit of the doubt). But her actions seem so much more drastic than what people expect.i.e, you already lost one daughter and it emotionally affected the girls. Why would she do something that is going to cause them even more difficulty? That is what no one can figure out.

There is more than a modicum of truth in that a part of me would like to hurt her somehow in her father's eyes.

wow. That would not help your marriage at all. But it would hurt both him and her. Gee, how's that make you feel about yourself?


I understand where you are going with this and what you are getting at, but... You need to take into account what she has done to me and to our family. She has betrayed me in the most despicable base manner possible. She has fractured our family tree. To say that I want my pound of flesh is an understatement. The angry, rapacious vengeful part of me wants to hurt her in such a way that she will feel the agony she has caused me.

However, I love her so much it hurts. And that is what is killing me. My decision would be so much easier if I hated her.

Anytime she was sad or upset and there was nothing I could do to help make her feel better really bothered me. When she was pregnant with our oldest she was sideswiped by a cab in NYC during the winter and knocked down. As soon as I made sure she was okay I chased the cab down. If not for her being okay and intervening, I would probably beat the s**t out of the cabbie. That is what we men do. Our DNA directs us to protect and provide for our family.

That is what I am trying to do now. Protect my family. If my tone here is angry...so be it. Better here than when I am on the phone with her or in her presence.

My counselor said the two things I need to look for are remorse and insight. Remorse: is she truly sorry for what she has done and working to make amends. Insight: does she understand why she did what she did and what steps is she taking to insure that it never happens again. I don't see either of those with her.

You may be right. Maybe my attitude is what is allowing her to justify her behaviour to herself. I am trying to work on myself. Truly. I am down 50lbs. I am at the same weight I was when we were dating. I have been dressing better. I have continued to see the psychologist and take the antidpressant. I am talking with my DB coach.

The new tact this week is to try something in her love language. After reading the book it was like a light bulb went off in my head. My love languages are touch and acts of service. I can see now that hers are gifts and quality time.

She used to complain that I never get her anything or take her anywhere. When she would get me something I would tell her not to spend the money that I don't need it. I would get upset that she went shopping all the time(retail therapy). I can see now when I would chastise her for spending money on a gift for me she felt like I was rejecting her love. That was never my intention.

I thought all of my acts of service and embraces showed her how much I cared for her. I see now that I should gotten her some small things in addition to my actions. So, after talking with my DB coach I am going to try it this week. I am going to buy her a housewarming plant for her apartment. When we first started dating she bought me a "love fern" for my condo. It is still alive. I tell myself that as long as that is alive our love is alive. So I am going to buy a "love fern" for her apartment.

I have to wrap this up. 25yrsmlc, if I upset you with my post it was not my intention but I stand by what I have written. I am on an emotional roller coaster.

I know I need to "put myself in her shoes" to try to see things her way. But there is so much anger and hurt inside. I have no one to talk to. I have not told any of my family or friends about her infidelity and certainly not about our daughter's paternity. So the only people who know about the affair are her family and anyone she may have told. Not really the people I can go to for comfort. Thank God I found this board. Please help me.

thehollowman
PS I am sorry that my post is so disjointed and nonsequential.

PPS I know someone who has millions tied up/lost in this MF Global fiasco. I copied and pasted the paragraph you sent me regarding turning it over to God. He liked it. Thank you.

[keep_going]

Hollowman

First let me start by sending you my condolences on your multiple losses. I cannot even imagine how you must feel after all the family tragedies you have endured in the past year.

I am also sorry that you find yourself here due to marital problems. On that front, I can empathize and know the pain you are going thru.

After reading your thread and the advice you have been given, my heart just broke. I am not one who writes a lot - mostly a lurker, but there are some similarities between us. I, like you, currently have a lot of anger towards my H.

He left last Nov. just after we found out I was pregnant with our third child, (We now have 3 kids under the age of 4...) and right after we had bought a house.

Sometimes in the middle of the night, when I have to get up to feed our 3 month old and just 20 minutes later one of the girls wakes up crying asking for daddy and then the other one wakes up an hour later...In those moments I want to curl up, cry and give up. Why? My thougths are - WHY AM I GOING THRU THIS ALONE? H SHOULD BE WITH ME. Isn't that what marriage is about - for better or for worse?

You are going thru something A LOT more difficult than me. For goodness' sake - YOU LOST A DAUGHTER. As bad as my sit. is, I cannot even start to comprehend the pain that it must feel to loose your own daughter. But perhaps you may be feeling something like what I go thru when I am at my lowest. Which gets me to the point of my posting.

Perhaps a lot of your anger has to do with your whole situation and your loses - specially your daughter. You might be angry thinking how unfair it is that you have to deal with the loss alone - without your wife. You should be dealing with this loss together, right?

Perhaps your anger has also a lot to do with YOUR loss itself. I have to imagine that a year (and particularly with all the challenges you have faced) would not be enough to go through the grieving process of losing a child? Again - I HAVE NO IDEA because I have never experienced anything like that. I can only imagine...

So my point is that given everything you have gone through and all the pain and loss you need to grieve and accept, you have not been ready to let go of that anger. I know there are several steps in the grieving process and one of them is anger...

I understand and admire that you want to work on your marriage now - and you should. But I would strongly encourage you to start with your OWN HEALING. FOR YOU AND YOUR DAUGHTERS. It sounds from your comments like they are struggling too. THEY NEED THEIR PARENTS NOW MORE THAN EVER. Remember - they lost a sister too and they are very young. This is going to take a lot of love and tender caring for them to overcome their current situation. And they need the adults and the pillars in their lives (you, your W and rest of the family) to show the way and re-assure them that everything will be ok.

This is what I try to remind myself in my darkest hour, in my loneliest moment - MY KIDS NEED ME TO BE STRONG.

Regarding the situation with your wife. I have read a lot of threads on this boards (I am a big time lurker) and I can tell you that all that 25 has told you is GOLDEN ADVICE if you are trying to fight for your marriage. Yet, you might not be there (because of your loses, pain and anger) and therefore, your reluctance to accept it fully? But perhaps this can be something to think about, so please, come back to the advice givren and re-read often. When u r in a different state of mind, you might get something new...

On the other hand, please try to see a different POV. Even if your W is with OM, she is grieving a loss of her child as well. And I assume that she has always been a good mom, so SHE MUST BE GOING THRU HELL, JUST LIKE YOU. And perhaps she is also full of anger. So you may think that her live is all love and rosy with OM, but perhaps it;s not.

Do you want to inflict more pain to BOTH OF YOU with your actions? Haven't you BOTH have already suffered enough? She will live with all the consequances of her actions -
LIKE WE ALL DO, so why try to impart justice yourself?

I also assume that your daughters' illness was not sudden (it sounds like there were a lot of hospital stays), and both you and your W had to deal with that on a daily basis, while still trying to be a good parent and continue living. Every human being will deal with pain like that differently, and even though I am not trying to justify your wife's affair, perhaps her way of trying to cope or simply survive was to deny reality and avoid it? You went thru a major depression. It sounds like while that happened, she was left to try to keep the family semi-functioning?

Again - I am assuming A LOT, but I am just so moved and touched by the amount of PAIN and HURT associated with everything in your situation, for EVERY member of your family, that I have to wonder if perhaps you and your W will need to first heal from the loss of your daughter and give yourselves TIME. Who knows how each of you will come out of your own grieving process...

And this loss could eventually become a bonding experience for you both AND YOUR CHILDREN if dealt with appropriately. Why not focus on that, instead of focusing on her R with OM?

I am personally having a very hard time trying to work on my R with my husband, since I am not even healthy myself. In other words, if I cannot get a hold of my anger about my situation as a single mom of three very young and precious lives, and the loss of my really really bad marriage, then how can I expect to make any inroads in my R with H.

I have to work on forgiving before I can make any inroads...

Please know - I am NOT asking you to give up, but to PLEASE take care of yourself first.

First because YOUR CHILDREN NEED YOU MORE THAN EVER - RIGHT NOW. And second because you, like every other person in this planet, deserves to heal, find peace and be happy.

Stay strong and continue getting help - you need it and will greatly benefit from it. I wish you the best in your recovery and will check in to try to encourage you if I can in some way.

[thehollowman]

keep_going,

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them. I am sorry to hear about the state of your marriage. Like many, I never thought I would find myself here. But none of us know what God has in store for us.

After I read your post I reread 25yrmlc post. And then I read it again. I can see how my wife felt frustrated with me, anxious about our daughter. She had told me in the past she wasn't happy. I "listened" to the words but I never "heard" her.

Before she moved out we had a fight. During the fight she told me that looking at pictures of us and seeing the cards and things she had gotten for me just reminded her of how she felt unappreciated and unloved. Like 25yrsmlc, I think she feels that I drove her into the affair because of my actions (or lack thereof).

It is very hard to swallow that pill.

I am trying to show her that I do love her and still care. I got her a plant for her apartment. She didn't appear suspicious or wary. She was a little surprised and said thanks. End of story.

Later that night I realized it was too late for me to call and say good night to the girls. I texted her my hugs and kisses for the girls. She responded almost right away. Lately it has felt like she has been doing a 180 on me, i.e., my calls going to voicemail, etc. So I view this as a tiny, almost imperceptible and infintesmal, step in the right direction.

Its funny how life/God(?) puts things in your path when you need them. My mom was experiencing chest pain the other day so I went over to check on her after she got back from her doctor's appointment. While I was there I went through a box of old books in my own room. The one on top was [/u]How to Win Friends and Influence People[u] by Dale Carnegie.

Chapter 1 talks about the exact things that 25yrsmlc and you did. Some of the choice quotes...

"...ninety nine times out of a hundred people don't criticize themselves for anything, no matter how wrong they may be. Criticism is futile because it puts a person on the defensive and usually makes him strive to justify himself. Criticism is dangerous, because it wounds a person's precious pride, hurts his sense of importance and arouses resentment."

"...realize that the person we are going to correct and condemn will probably justify himself or herself, and condemn us in return."

"Do you know someone you would like to change and regulate and improve? Good! That is fine I am all in favor of it. But why not begin on yourself? From a purely selfish standpoint that is a lot more profitable".

"When dealing with people remember that we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity."

The chapter ends with this "Don't condemn, criticize or complain."

All of this sounds like it is taken out of DB and DR.

I sent my inlaws an email thanking them for watching the girls and lamenting the fact that we didn't get to spend more time together. All I said in regards to Lori's and my situation was this:

"This is a difficult time for everyone; Lori, the girls, you, my mom, our families and myself. I truly appreciate your efforts to reach out to Lori. I love her so much it hurts...and as difficult as the situation is, I am afraid all we can do is pray and wait. The door to reconciliation is open. I hope and pray in time she will come home."

I have started cutting my mom and other family members off when they start to make disparaging remarks about my wife. I remind them that I am still married to her and that she is still the mother of my chilren. Then I gently remind them of all of the hardship she has been through not just in the past ten years, but in her life growing up as well. I have found that that makes my conversational partner a little more sympathetic to her and whatever she may be going through.

There is so much more to say but I have to get back to work. Thank you for reading my posts. It means a lot to know that others are hearing me (sort of).

thehollowman

[sandi2]

Before I say anything further, I apologize in advance if I have any chain of events mixed up. Also, I do not want you to think I am defending your W for engaging in an A. I simply hope I might try to shed some tiny light on something I can identify with a little (very little).

I also saw this quote from Keep-Going and wondered if it would help you see something that started long before the tragic death of your D. If I understand correctly, that your W had not had an A before your D was diagnosed?

In those moments I want to curl up, cry and give up. Why? My thougths are - WHY AM I GOING THRU THIS ALONE? H SHOULD BE WITH ME. Isn't that what marriage is about - for better or for worse?

Now this is Keep Going's feelings of her H being physically absent in the family.

I think your W felt that you were emotionally absent in the family, when she needed you the most.

Remember when you told about the cab driver who hit your
W and you would have done a lot of harm to him, if not for her? You said:

That is what we men do. Our DNA directs us to protect and provide for our family.

I understand. Makes perfect sense. OTOH, let's look at the time when your D was diagnosed and look from your W's POV. You actually described the situation yourself:

After my daughters diagnosis and numerous hospitalizations I withdrew into severe depression. She at first was understanding and tried to help, send email links, bring books on depression, etc. After a while she became more curt or noncommunicative. She was tired of me sitting around feeling sorry for myself. I gained a lot of weight, I wasn't taking care of myself (hygiene, dress, etc). I had no interest in anything.

She told me on several occasions she was unhappy but it didn't mean anything to me. I wasn't happy either.

Just as it is in his DNA for a man to literally fight someone to protect his family, so is it her DNA to depend upon her H for his strength (after all, she's suppose to be the weaker vessel, right?) and notice that she needs him to give of his strength. Don't know if you're a Christian or not....but that's a picture lesson of us depending upon Christ for His strength. But anyway, she depends upon her H for his protection and his leadership. The female is usually smaller in build, weaker in physical endurance, and more emotional than the male. In times of crises, who does the female turn to? The male, right? No matter how educated she may be, or how successful she may be, or how much money she has.....it is her very nature to look to her husband when danger threatens to hit her....and especially her child. I don't care how tough she may be according to modern society, it is something that runs so deep within her that she can't help herself. That's the way God made her all the way back to the first woman. My question to you is.....where were you when crises hit? I'm sorry.....I know this seems very harsh to ask this sort of thing....but I want you to understand where she's coming from.

To be blunt, you failed her when she needed you most. You didn't fail her by not saving her child. You failed by withdrawing into your own selfish sorrow. She was not afforded that luxury. She felt just as abandoned as our poster "keep-going" does. The emotional abandonment is very, very bad on a woman. IMHO, it kills the in-love feelings for the H. At first, she's hurt, but after a while it turns to disgust (disrespect). She can't admire him any longer. She can't depend upon him to "show up" when tragedy hits.

That's not to say she didn't understand what you were going through, but you're suppose to be stronger than her!! Her natural instincts are telling her to draw strength from her H b/c he's the stronger gender. But you said it.....yourself.....it didn't mean anything to you. And that was what broke her down. She felt alone.

She slowly started pulling away from me. I later noticed there was less physical affection. Not just sex, mind you, but hugs and other nonintimate signs of affection.

That's what happens when a woman stops feeling what she's designed to feel for her H. Usually, she'll find somebody who shows her that she matters, or at least, he gives her some attention. I can think of more than one reason she would have turned to another man, and why she's still with him.

And like I said, I may have something out of whack on the time line, but here's what I really want you to consider,....She's trying to stay alive. You are trying to survive, too. But just as sure as the different ways the two of you went through those dark days with your D....so are you both surviving in different ways. You gave up then, and she's gave up now.

She hasn't had this A to do it "to" you, as you described. I noticed how you worded that a couple of times. She doesn't see herself doing this "to" her children.

Does it make what she's done, and continues to do, anymore acceptable or "right"? No, not at all. Does it make what she's done, and continues to do, more understandable? That's up to you.

I pray that you can find peace, b/c without it...you won't make it. I hope she can find peace also.

(((many hugs to both of you)))

[25yearsmlc]

what sandi said...


You do go on at length about how wrong and "despicable" your w's affair was in your hour of need

but according to YOU, you deserted her first. IN case you didn't realize this, she had her hours of need too...and they were spent alone, or caring for the other child. OR sending you links and asking for you to get help so she would not have to bear the burden all alone, as she did...

And you were out of action for awhile... she reached out to you a lot...the emails and links and suggestions for getting help and telling you point blank to lose weight b/c she wasn't attracted to you as a heavy man--she wanted to be attracted to you...what did you do about it then?

I'm sorry to say this, but that's how I see it, so not just how your wife may see it, but ME, how I'd see it.

I'm reading this and shaking my head when you said you "got depressed" (as if you think SHE wasn't frantic and terrified and sad as hell too....)

WHO do you think SHE needed then?

As Sandi said, we women are programmed to go to our men for comfort and strength at that time, in our hour of need, to lean on each other if possible

but you checked out on her and the marriage long ago.

Only when she withdrew her affection and had an affair, did you bother to notice much...and instead of owning your part in this, you initially stared again, at YOUR loss and went into the self pity mode and got mad at HER.



How has that^^^^ helped your situation? B/c this site is about doing what helps the marriage and NOT doing what hurts it...simple but radically different than most....and this is a KEY concept for you to grasp ASAP.



I'm sorry to say this but as a woman who barely managed to avoid a full out PA 20 years ago in a time of marital neglect that pales in comparison to yours

I can very very easily see how the affection and affirmation and support of OM must have been so appealing to someone in so much need.

I'm not defending it but heck yes, I understand it.

And the other thing-a signficant % of couples divorce when a child dies and it's not b/c they "blame" the other parent (though I'm sure that happens too) but b/c they want to escape the pain of their past. This isn't shocking.

I did medical malpractice law for several years and saw this a lot. The appeal of the affair with OP is, in part, an escape from severe grief--

The OP does not know the deceased child. They are not reminders of the great sadness that hangs over the parent/spouse 24/7...

it takes an usual couple to make it through those times.

The good news is that I do see hope in your sitch. As you lose weight and get back into shape, that visual is such a great symbol of the changes within, that she cannot help but wonder if you are becoming the man she fell in love with. That's a great start.


You can come here and vent all you want and complain about her and how SHE much change for you to want her back...but SHE is not here posting to save the marriage

and the only person YOU have any control over is YOU...

so you are our focus. Do you understand why that is?

All your criticisms of her, and the need you have of her confessing all, do nothing to advance your cause. THey simply help you stay mired in anger and despair, which are both unattractive AND unproductive, dark places to stay.
[u]
Don't anchor yourself in the pain of it all.

We all do things in grief we are not proud of and I'm sure her father said that.

I know you are deeply in grief but don't lose sight of how many others loved your daughter too, so you are not alone in your grief, but sadly you have not been there for anyone else in theirs....

maybe that's why you are not getting the "Support" you think you want, (ie condemning your wife's actions.)

I'm not so sure the "worst thing" your w could have done was cheat on you.

Leaving your d to suffer and die alone seems worse to me, off the top of my head. But does that matter? What about what you did to her? Are you ready to own some things now?

I know these are LOTS of 2 x 4s at once.

But you need to change your POV FAST...or it'll be too late. The longer you stay mired in self pity and self righteous anger, the harder it'll be to reconcile.

So decide if you want to be "right", or happy again.


Your anger may be misdirected grief, I don't know and I"m not qualified to assess. But my guess is you need to get help from a professional and separate your issues.

Sorry. And good luck. I hope you manage the anger you feel and really take that brave, terrifying deep look inward, where the real journey lies.

God bless and comfort you and your wife at this time of year, and

May you find peace and may you reach out to her and help share the burden of the grief you both feel...

((( )))

[thehollowman]

Do you recommend that I verbalize to my WW what you all have said here?

That is, I understand now that you felt emotionally abandoned, that you tried to help me, etc, etc.

[25yearsmlc]

Do you recommend that I verbalize to my WW what you all have said here?

That is, I understand now that you felt emotionally abandoned, that you tried to help me, etc, etc.

if you truly understand what we are saying and if you truly "Get it" and mean it, then I don't see how it could hurt.

But you have to be clear and brief but show that you GET IT...so no talk of HER choices except how she tried to reach out to you and no discussion about HER failures..

it's all about what you did or didn't do. You went into self pity and dealt with your grief in a way that did not help her at all. You were MIA and she really needed you, etc.

I'm not trying to make you feel worse, but want you to know how to say it without spending an hour rehashing....just make the point that you get it now, in a way you didn't before.

And if you had it all to do over again, you'd do LOTS of things differently...and you know you both miss your d....you wish you both had better tools for grief THEN, but hey, we're all human and doing our best and then, with NO expecatations, thank her in some way for hearing you (maybe a small hug??) to somehow convey that you just want HER to know that YOU KNOW that you didn't show up for her and you sure wish you had....

and end the talk.

Don't expect her to slap her forehead and wake up and now want you back.

Best case scenario is you will have planted a seed that takes weeks or months to grow.

make sense?

[sandi2]

if you truly understand what we are saying and if you truly "Get it" and mean it

I agree, and you really have to get it, or it will not be genuine.

Just a few days ago you were harboring some very bad feelings toward your W. Maybe you need a few more days to absorb this information.

Like 25 says, don't say anything to your W with expectations.

When you're ready, this could be very healing for both of you......but it doesn't mean it will get the two of you together. But for now, finding peace between & your W is very much needed. There's so many facets of grieving, you don't need this part.

Don't forget, when you are ready to say something about this, it doesn't mean she'll be quick to forgive you (any more than you are about the A).

IMHO, it's not necessary to voice any part about her turning to OM. You want her to hear it without veering off into an old argument.

This may even need to be delivered in small parts at different times.

[thehollowman]

My inlaws were here this weekend. My MIL called to see about picking up the girls on Sunday and bringing them back Monday morning. I was gone for work so the girls were staying with my mom. My sister was in town with her kids so they were staying at my mom's house as well. My MIL wanted to pick the girls up and take them to her brother's house (about 30min away).

I told her that wouldn't work because D1 had school the next morning. She then suggested that they get a hotel room in town. I told her that the girls have been bounced between home, W's new apartment and my mom's house. I told her that the girls need stability in their lives right now and I want them to sleep at home. She and my FIL are more than welcome to stay over as well. There was an awkward pause but then she agreed it was probably for the best.

Sunday afternoon they arrived at my mom's to pick up the girls. My sister called me after they left to tell me how things went. When they got there they stayed by the door with their coats on insisting they were fine and didn't need anything. My mom was afraid they were going to leave without anything other than banal pleasantries being said. Thank God for my sister.

She cornered my MIL and carefully broached the topic. She asked gentle probing questions and soon she and my MIL were talking about our situation. Eventually my mom joined them. The inlaws ended up staying for almost three and a half hours! My FIL didn't say much but my sister said she could see how upset he was about the whole thing. When they were leaving my BIL pulled my FIL aside and told him that he thinks there is another man. BIL told him he has seen this numerous times in teh business world. If only they knew...

So my sister called me after they left. She wanted to make sure that I didn't tear into my inlaws (see earlier post). My inlaws are not supportive of her decision. My MIL told my mom over and over again that this is not my fault. She told my mom that she raised a wonderful son and she saw me as an amazing father and wonderful husband. That made my mom feel better. Made me feel good too.

I saw them in the morning when I got home from work. FIL took D1 to school and MIL and I talked. She told me most of the stuff that my sister told me. She told me not to blame myself and that I should keep on being the best dad possible for the girls. I was careful with what I said but I had to stop myself a few times from saying too much.

MIL told me how broken up FIL is about all of this. I guess he has tried to talk to her several times but she won't listen to him. This made me think; she has accused me of going behind her back and calling her family. This must have been after he had called her.

While we were talking D2(not my biological D) climbed up onto my lap. She asked me "Daddy, how come mommy doesn't want to live at my house?" My father in law sat stone faced and my MIL began to cry. Oh, I forgot to mention that they had seen one of the cards D1 made for her mom. It read "Dear Mommy, I love you. Please come home. Love A". My wife has accused me of putting things into the girls heads and trying to go behind her back to her family. Clearly that isn't the case. The girls know something isn't right and are confused. My inlaws are confused as well. Hell, so am I!

My FIL told me that he had not told his parents yet nor her aunt. I found this interesting. Her cousin is her best friend; closest friend growing up, maid of honor, shoulder to cry on after first marriage ended. If the cousin knew about what is going on she would have said something to her mom. If she had said something to her mom then the mom would have immediately gotten on the phone with FIL. None of this happened. Based on that and the content of the letter I recieved from my inlaws prior, she appears to have completely cut herself off from her own family.

Wife is out of town again at an industry conference. She will be gone eight days in total. There is a group of them that went together. He is with them. She told me that she is sharing a room with him and a gay coworker. My MIL asked me about her travel and lodging accomodations. My MIL said that W told her father that she and OM were no longer intimate. She asked me if I believed that to be true. I told MIL that she lied to me for years when I asked her if there was anyting going on. So if she was lying to me then how could I be sure she wasn't lying to me now? I know I shouldn't have said that but the conversation was starting to get awfully close to the whole unvarnished truth.

Before she left for the conference she brought the girls and the van back home. Then we drove her back to her apartment She said that she had to leave for the airport in a few hours. I told her that the girls and I would take her. She said it wasn't necesarry that she had arranged for a car. I told her since money is tight cancel the car and we will drive you. The girls started chiming in that they wanted to go with to the airport. W gave me a dirty look and started in on me for trying to use the girls to get to her!!??

Things had actually gotten tense in the car shortly before. I did some research on the net regarding the event. I was trying to show more interest in what she does and I'd be able to ask more thoughtful questions. As we were talking the topic of who was going came up. She told me a bunch of us are going. I asked if he was going. I asked if they were sharing a room. She got very prickly and told me that they were sharing a room and someone else was sharing it with them as well. She then went on saying that we are seperated and I have to move on and let this go; who she is with is none of my buiness, etc, etc. I quietly let her know that people had asked me about her travel and lodging accomodations. She fired back saying "Who? Your mom?" I told her no. That the inquiry hadn't come from my family. For a second she looked scared.

When we got to the apartment. She told me that this is why she doesn't like seeing me. That it ends up ruining her whole day. Then she again told me that I have to get on with my life, she isn't going to change her mind, that I am wasting my time hoping she will come home. I looked at her and told her matter of factly that I haven't given up on her or our M. And that any time I spent trying to keep the family together was not wasted time. She didn't say much to that. She just stared at the floor and then out the window.

I went inside with her to get the file folder with birth certificates, SocSec cards etc. She told me that she didn't know where they were. She also said I needed to stop harassing her??!!I said to her that she is the most organized person I know. That she always knows where everything is and that is one of her qualities that I found so attractive. She didn't really say anything to that. Just looked at me. She found it in a few seconds.

As I was leaving it seemed like she was trying to goad me back into an arguement. She said that most of the stuff in the folder was her's anyway why did I want it, etc. I just smiled at her and told her I would make copies for her. All in all it was a very zen period for me. I never lost my cool or raised my voice. Later, she called before they were about to board the plane and a few hours later she called when they reached Miami. She texted me later to let me know that they reached the final destination.

She has texted twice and called once since she has been gone. The texts have been about the girls but the phone conversation covered a little bit of what was going on at the conference.

I am a little unsure how to proceed when she gets home. The auto insurance for the van expires on the 20th. I told her that from now on the business is going to be paying for the van and the insurance. She said that is something that we will ahve to talk about. I want to send her a reminder about it along with the contact info for Allstate. My coach thinks that this is a good example of setting boundaries. I/We paid for the van and were able to write it off while my daughter was alive as a necessary medical expense. But the business got to use it as well. Now, the business can write it off and we can use it. She doesn't want to pay for the van or the insurane. Earlier she tried to guilt me saying that they are coming into the slowest time of year and money will be very tight. Before I had told her that is not my problem to deal with. That I am done paying. I know when I said it came off as lashing out because I was angry and hurt. Any advice on how to enforce this boundary without seeming angry/petty?

Also, as I mentioned in the last thread; giving/receiving gifts is her main love language. I am going to be in our old neighborhood next week and thought about stopping by her favourite bakery and picking up a few of her favorite cupcakes. The plant didn't seem to trigger anything although I noticed when I was over there the other morning she hasn't gotten rid of it. I am taking that as a good sign.

I have been very disconnected the past few days. One night I cried and cried. But for the last two days I haven't really thought about her that much. Is that a good sign or a bad sign? I'm not sure.

Gotta go. Time to put the girls to bed.

thehollowman

[25yearsmlc]

sorry for the hijack,

but sandi can you check on paige40's thread?

thanks.