Putting it back together, but SSM issues linger

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Thank you so much Adinva, your thoughts are really so helpful. Some additional thoughts and follow-up below:

What "worked"? What did you do that made her feel safe or encouraged or interested in working things out with you?

We had the ILYBNILWY, EA, D crisis that so many people have on this board. The fundamental problem in our marriage was that we were not connected. Both of us wanted to be, but neither of us knew how to make it better, thought the other person incapable or disinterested, etc., so we also never talked about it.

Historically, I *would* get a spark of that connection when we would ML, so that became a very important thing for me in our marriage -- it was one way I could connect, and I think it became overly important for me. There were so many places I was giving up my needs, putting myself in the backseat, etc. (in my view), but I was willing to deal with that and still stay in the marriage. I kind of decided that ML was one place I would not yield and WOULD be willing to walk eventually if needs were not met.

Based on how I felt about ML, I convinced myself that if I could make the experience better for W, that she would also feel more connected and everything would start to improve, so I probably put even more pressure there.

What I have learned is that W would NOT feel more connected through ML, W needed "quality time", and I wasn't giving her any.

When the bomb dropped I made the typical immediate mistakes (confront about EA, confront OM, beg/plead/reason about divorce, pursue, etc.), I was able to turn that around pretty quickly because I found this site, read the books, etc. and that helped to not push W away further, so I was able to stabilize pretty quickly. I also caught a huge break because the EA was over a few days before I discovered it, and was broken off by OM who went completely dark in order to save his own M -- I got VERY lucky there.

What "worked" was in many ways basic "DB" -- don't do or say *anything* to create resentment, don't bring up EA or OM, don't be angry, plan to do all the work myself, etc. I did make sure my W understood the financial realities of D, *why* I was interested in working on the M, etc. One thing I told her is that from this point, she could go forward with me, or find someone else and go forward with them. There was no guarantee that she'd be happy in either scenario, but if there was even a chance of finding happiness with me, wasn't it worth giving it a try? There is so much upside with regard to the kids, financials, shared history, etc. If there's even a slight chance it works out, let's see if we can do it!

Then, I made it my mission to understand what W needed from the M, what made W feel loved, and I set about making sure I provided that.

Although W was dead set on leaving, she slowly came around and very slowly started to engage until she was also "in". That was very trying to go through that for me.

Consequently, she is not giving. She does not give "words of affirmation", she does not seek to do the things she knows I like.

This and the not learning how to enjoy sex, I read as an act of aggression.

Why do you view that as aggression versus just neglect? Tell me more about that please! What do I do about it?

In fact, controlling how giving she is may be a way of putting herself one up from you, so she feels more in control or whatever. If you feel bad about not "performing better" and so you become hysterical and upset, you can shut down the conversation so you don't have to try to do better.

So you're saying that by not giving, she derives a feeling of control in the relationship. When I challenge her about the lack of giving, her breakdown is a way to prevent me from pushing it so she would have to try?

Interesting! What do I do about that? Since I had a WAW, I have some fear that she will walk away again, find another OM, etc. That's there every day. She's already established that she's willing to let everything go, so how much leverage do I really have to push her? Am I looking at this wrong?

yep, I can put myself in your W's place there, and in fact have probably heard "why not just.." a bunch of times from my H. I can say, sometimes I almost could tell that I was sort of testing him by being so "bad", did he still love me? I didn't go through that exact thought process, but I could liken it to the feeling of when I was a kid, disobeying my parents' rules or just sort of intentionally not living up to their expectations. Something that kind of enlightened me about that was a book on birth order, might have been The Birth Order Effect, in which I related to the "disappointed perfectionist." The gist of it is, it's not going to be acceptable so why even try. I wonder if there's some of this going on with your W.

I will look up that book as well. My W and I are both first borns, and she has told me outright that she feels competitive with me, and it bothers her that I am a better communicator, figure things out faster, etc. I don't feel competitive, but I'm very conscious now about not doing anything that would make her feel second rate.

I was thinking about this "testing" notion as well. To some degree, she's done the worst thing to me that she could possibly do, and I'm still here, so can't she move beyond that now? If I haven't proven I love her by sticking with her after an affair, changing myself, and putting my wants in the back seat, what else could I possibly do to prove it?

I know I would respond well to very enthusiastic praise for small achievements and letting a lot of slips go unmentioned. Be very very very patient. Forgive, forgive, forgive, and PRAISE.

Praise drives her crazy. She gets extremely angry when she feels I praise her. I told her the other week that she's a good wife and she got angry. Not sure what that's about, other than that she doesn't like to feel evaluated or graded, and praise makes her feel that way.

Don't have uncomfortable talks, and totally stop trying to force an "O." Just show lots of appreciation for even the smallest flicker of interest or skill. And not with a slant of "this is just a tiny step in the huge pyramid of what I want you to really do" but with a "I'm really happy about this one thing, that's it, just really happy." Just a few thoughts.

Yeah, I've given up on the "O", although I would love to work on it. It just makes me sad to think about going through the rest of my life with no effort or interest on that front. I will try your suggestions here for sure, being careful not to give praise, but to express appreciation.

Is she interested in staying married, not just on her terms but for the good of both of you? It doesn't seem unreasonable for her to want to try learning your needs and negotiating them to fit around hers. This may be too soon to start working on negotiating, but down the road it sounds like you need to do that.

She wants to live with no expectations. She wants me to view anything she does for me as a gift. She wants me to expect nothing. To be fair, she tries to treat me that way. She really never expresses an expectation and makes very few requests if any. I don't like that of course, because I like to provide and I like to feel needed and wanted. Like most people though, she is giving what she wants to receive.

That said, historically she DID expect me to "read her mind" with regard to how she was feeling and act appropriately, and when I didn't, she would get resentful. She doesn't *really* live with no expectations, she just doesn't express them and pretends that she doesn't expect me to do anything, but she does.

As The Captain pointed out on my original thread, asking me to have no expectations is actually setting a huge expectation of me to be able to live that way.

Her view of marriage is that we should each be 100% self reliant, and not *need* the other person at all, and that what we get from the marriage is a bonus.

I told her I like to view each individual as 80%, and the marriage provides the last 20% of happiness in our lives. We fundamentally have not agreed on that point.

You'll need to negotiate a give and take in your marriage. Maybe when you're meeting more of her needs and she feels more goodwill, you'll be able to start asking for more of your needs to be met.

She tells me I am meeting 100% of her needs. She tells me her "love tank is full" per the 5LL's, and that she has the relationship she's always wanted. The only thing she doesn't like is that she doesn't feel I'm happy with what she's currently bringing to the table, and she wishes I was. That's the last piece that's missing for her, that I be 100% happy with whatever she chooses to provide, versus asking her to provide something that I would like. I don't see how that's a realistic perspective, but maybe I'm off base there. She certainly tries to live that way with me, although she is not happy with herself.

That's why negotiating doesn't work, she doesn't ask me for anything -- there's no "I'll do this for you if you do that for me". Her response will be "do what you want to do and don't do it for me", so there's no sense in making a reciprocal ask. See where I'm stuck?

I insisted that W read it as well, and to her credit, she did that for me.

That's impressive, and a big change from what you described about her. Did you show a lot of appreciation for her reading it? Did she provide any response to it? Did it make her feel pressured or uncomfortable, or the positive feeling of knowing lots of people have overcome similar challenges? Just curious whether the book was helpful.

Yes, she read it and took it to heart. I think she understands that it's a huge issue and a deal breaker for me, and the message in the book for the LD partner to "step it up" resonated with her, so she is making an effort there. That is the best thing that's come out of this whole crisis from my perspective is that my sex life is A LOT better, just not where I'd like it to be because I'd rather have a completely willing partner than someone who is there "to serve" if that makes sense. This is one area in our life where she HAS stepped up, and that's made me feel good about staying the course. I just hope it keeps up, because her pattern is to back off once things get good for me.

I think your giving her the control over escalating was brilliant and she responded to it really well, in my opinion.

It was her idea, I can't take credit for that, and initially it was painful for me but I got used to it.

Maybe this sounds weird but how about a silly code system so that, I don't know, turning her head left means oh yeah that's good. and how about if there was a code for no offense but I'm not into this could we take a rain check. It would be nice to have the power to just STOP and watch tv instead without feeling like you've crushed someone. I can't imagine a guy being willing to go along with this, but talk about letting her call the shots, wow.

Yeah, we've done that, we've come up with some code words for "do you want to ML tonight" but she's not willing to go any farther with the communication, code words or not.

I'm in the same boat here. My T has explained to me lots of times that I may succeed in saving the marriage (it's a long shot, she says) but I may realize in the end that I'm not satisfied with staying in it. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Right now, I've put ALL my needs on hold. I'm not getting ANY of them met by my H (well, other than the paycheck he brings home). Not ANY. Obviously, that's not a marriage I want to be in. I'm fighting tooth and nail to get him to want to stay, and then little by little, I'll have to negotiate with him that if he really wants to stay he needs to do X and ask for Y. Since he doesn't want to stay at all right now, the negotiating is premature. You're getting there because your W wants to be married to you for some reason and so she must be willing to do something to maintain that. But the more goodwill you generate, the more you can erase past resentments and be a better partner, the more likely she'll come around to wanting to meet you halfway.

Thanks Adinva, I hope your H turns things around, I wish I could talk to him! You're a good person for putting so much effort into this and putting your needs in the backseat for so long. I know exactly how that feels, although I didn't have to endure it for nearly as long as you have.

Your comments here are most appreciated.

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