What do I do next?

[Accuray]

Yeah, as I've said I've researched this ad nauseum. On your last point, one of the more interesting points I've read again and again is that we come into marriage with a bundle of expectations and pre-conceived notions. In many cases, we believe that these are "normal" or "everyone wants/expects this", so we never bother to verbalize or explain them, and if our partner questions them we get very hostile because they are our core beliefs.

For instance, if you were raised in a house where mom makes the kids lunches in the morning and dad takes out the garbage, chances are when you get into your marriage you'll take out the garbage and "expect" your wife to make the kids lunches without ever discussing that expectation or questioning if it's fair. You just won't make the lunches, and not even think about the fact that *not* doing it may be a problem, because you have a core belief that it's not your job. Then, if you actually DO make the lunches, you'll view it as doing a favor for your wife, which in many cases will make her crazy.

What I've read is that these unspoken assumptions are often a huge source of tension because although we hold our core beliefs to be "normal", they're rarely going to match the assumptions our spouse is bringing to the marriage. When the assumptions don't match, and you can't have a productive discussion about it, it starts a negative cycle of resentment that eventually drives you apart.

One thing I've tried to do is evaluate ALL the things that get done to keep our household running, figure out what my baseline assumptions are about whose "job" that is, and then challenge myself on each one. For instance, historically my wife would clean up the clutter in our daughter's room. If she outgrew toys or books, I assumed my wife would be the one to sort through them and give away the stuff my daughter no longer needs.

Through this process I started to question "why do I assume that's my wife's job?" She also works full time, we never discussed who would be responsible for that, so why do I just assume she owns it? If you start going through that process with each element of "work" in your household, you'll get in touch with your own assumptions and beliefs, so when you start piecing, or start a new relationship, you can actually discuss this stuff up front, agree to share responsibility for it, or agree on who will take the lead. The point though is not just divide the stuff that naturally falls in noman's land, you've got to evaluate all of it.

I can tell you first hand that if you start taking on stuff that you previously assumed was your wife's "job", and truly believe you own it versus you're doing her a favor, that's the type of 180 that demonstrates real and positive change -- but you have to be willing to keep it up and keep doing it.

Just my two cents on your second paragraph above

Accuray

[luvhurts49]

I've been reading quite a bit of other peoples sitch's throughout the many different topic on this site and it really has me confused as to classify what is happening between me any my W. By that I mean, is my W in a MCL? Is she a WAW? Or is she just depressed, confused, unhappy, etc and just wants a D so it can all end? It really is confusing when you actually sit down and examine the situation. So if anyone has any advice on this, I'd be happy to hear it as I am confused as to how all these relate or even how to identify one from the other.

[Accuray]

Those are just labels that represent groupings of issues so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You definitely have a WAW -- she wants a divorce and you don't. MLC may be one driver for WAW behavior, or it may not be.

I guess if you read about and understand MLC behavior and motivations, it can't hurt. You can probably effectively apply the same strategies regardless of whether or not your W is having an MLC.

The bottom line is that she wants out and you don't. What are you doing about that?

What have you tried?

How is it working?

What do you still need to do or do better, and how are you going to do it?

In my opinion those are better questions than what's driving your W's behavior because you can't control that and may never understand it completely.

Listen to what she's telling you very closely about what you do or say or don't do and how she feels about it. Don't argue or rationalize it away. Internalize it, own it, and address it (or decide not to) but don't let it slide.

Accuray

[luvhurts49]

I'm doing about the only thing that I can think of doing at this point. When I have my kids, I take care of them and do everything that I can to make them happy.

Before my W left, you could say that I was impatient, would be confrontational, would raise my voice, and be easily annoyed or frustrated especially when it came to my kids. Now, I'm trying to work on being more patient, change the way I approach conflict with my kids, be more aware of the tone of voice I am using, and try to remain calm instead of annoyed and to talk things through as to not become frustrated.

My progress in these areas are still a work in progress, but I think it's getting better. I still need to work on always having to right and always trying to pushing my opinions onto others.

Of course, when it comes to my W, I still want to understand, but I also know that I can't change her mind for her. I can only "fix" me and I can't "fix" her and sometimes that gets me a little frustrated. On top of that, I'm not as sure that there isn't OM as I was in the past. I have contemplated spying on her or hiring a PI as I would really like to have that piece of mind, but on the other hand, I'm not sure what it would do to me psychologically if she was/is with OM.

[Telemark]

"I'm not sure what it would do to me psychologically if she was/is with OM."

I'll tell you: it rips your heart out. You feel like dying. You wonder what he has that you don't have. You are in disbelief that your W would freely give herself to another. Your self-esteem and self-respect evaporate. Your imagination runs wild with images of them together.

That's on a good day.

My W admitted her EA to me, but only after I confronted her with evidence of their non-stop texting. She is now living with him. Nothing could have prepared me for this level of pain.

Think about it very carefully before you decide to investigate.

[luvhurts49]

Now my W has quite a few friends that got D because their S cheated on them--one even threw her and their 3 kids out to move his GF in. Even my W mom left her dad for greener pastures. I would have a hard time believing that any of my W friends would accept my W seeing OM considering many of these friends were the victims of an A from their H. So, if I did "find" evidence of OM, would presenting it to my W dad or her friends do any good at all? Would presenting proof to my W do any good?

[Accuray]

Well said Telemark, that's exactly how I felt too.

Luvhurts, my W was also a daughter of divorce and took it very hard, and had many anti-affair friends. She basically avoided confiding in anyone who would tell her what she didn't want to hear, and sought out those who would support her decisions.

Involving friends and family to be your advocates is a bad idea and does not work. It will just make you the bad guy and make your W resent you more. If there is OM that relationship is bringing her some happiness and relief. If she views you as trying to take that from her that pushes you farther apart.

If OM is there, it's not about you to begin with, so you can't change that either. Awareness will make you feel much much worse per Telemark. The *only* positive is that you'll know why DB isn't working and may better understand W's behavior

[luvhurts49]

But then isn't knowing whether there is OM worth it then? I mean, if there is OM, then I know it isn't just me and that it is mostly her and that it is her looking for something different. Sure, I can change certain things about myself and I can make myself a better and more desirable person, but in the end, I can only do so much for myself and it is very unlikely that I could ever make myself that "something different". So what I'm asking then, isn't it worth it to know whether there is OM and that there isn't anything that I could have done to make anything better?

[Telemark]

LH49, I understand your reasoning, and it is that same reasoning that drove me to check my W's phone, e-mails, internet logs...and in the end all it did was make her so angry she ran away even faster, and made me more miserable.

Not knowing if there is an OM is frustrating; knowing there is an OM is excruciating. It is up to each person to decide if they can handle the truth regardless of how painful it might be.

[Accuray]

I agree with Telemark on the relative pain of knowing versus not knowing, but you do have to decide for yourself. In terms of another warning, I felt I "had to know". Now, I wish I had a "Men in Black" mind-eraser light to look into, because despite the fact that we are piecing and reconciling, that knowledge is a horrible burden to take forward in the relationship.

The other thing is that once I knew a little, I felt compelled to know everything. Often the little bits that you find will only give you a small part of the picture, and your imagination will attach the worst possible meanings to anything to read. Don't underestimate how badly a little bit of knowledge will make you feel.

Because I wanted to know everything, I dug into everything, then felt compelled to spy on my W's communications and I was good at it too -- this was not good. Eventually I realized it wasn't doing any good and was just making me feel worse so I stopped. I guess the point is, know yourself. Will you be able to stop with a little bit of information, or will that just make you want more? How obsessed will you get about it and what will that do to your peace of mind?

Generally you're setting out on this path trying to improve your mental state with the new knowledge, but it will often have the opposite effect and make things far worse.

With regard to your comments, knowing there is OM shouldn't change anything you're *doing* if you're doing DB right. It would just change how you feel about it. If knowing about OM would change what you're doing, then you're not really working on you, you're trying to run a program to get W back. W will see through that, and if you do reconcile, it will be very difficult for you to keep it up because your goal has been accomplished. It must be about you.

The difference in knowing about OM or not is expectations -- if OM is involved your expectation should be to stabilize things and not push W farther away. If OM is not involved, your expectation is probably to see W move closer little by little. Regardless, however, the things that you do right now don't change.

-- Accuray