DB'ing is soooo hard!

[25yearsmlc]

Rick I Think this is your main thread so I'll post here...

hope I'm right about that.

Seeking answers - thank you so much for your reply and kindness.

I'm interested in what SHE SAID the problems were in the m and what you believe are legit issues for YOU to work on, in YOU...that's what I am looking for...b/c you only control you. And some of this past history stuff is great for a t to work with

but this site is solution based short term therapy...so I want to know what can YOU do to help the R and what can you STOP DOING that hurts it?

DBing is a Simple but radically different approach...



Background - I am 53, W 45, both on 1st marriage and have been together all of our adult lives. Three sons - 24, 21 and 13. Basically had kids right away.

W background - molested as a toddler, her Dad (and love of her life) dies at age 8, mother left with 7 kids to raise so very little support for my W. She learns to keep everything bottled up inside. Spends teen years being promiscous, drunk and addicted to diet pills. She is a seriously beautiful woman who was able to attract any man she ever wanted. Gets engaged to another guy, pregnant and has an abortion. At 18 meets me, works for me and we become great friends. At 20 moves from her Mom's house to mine and has our first child on her 21st birthday.

Okay so this ^^^is all about her and how wacky and damaged her back ground is and how odd it is that you would choose her

b/c there's not one good quality about her listed here (except for her looks). Don't you think that's strange?


Marriage years - the tough stuff was that W had a complete inabilty to trust so very tough for me all along. Also, W had a problem with creating a double standard in that she could have any male friend she wanted, even flirtateous but could not give me the trust I needed. In addition ,while being a loving, generous woman, and incredibly loving Mom, she never really would accept adult responsibilities in many ways. She withdrew over and over whenever the world of adult responsibilities were there. She had a weird self loathing and incredibly negative body image problem.

Still waiting to hear about YOU and your issues...if she's a total loser than I guess you are powerless to do anything.

Do you want to be powerless? If not, then find something to work on in YOU.


Marriage problems - I would often be angry about her mistrust, double standards, lack of financial understanding or effort, inabilty to communicate, and drinking too much at times.

Oh I see. So your anger was totally justified b/c of these other flaws SHE had? Sense any pattern here Rick?

I don't mean to hit you with a 2 x 4-- but you are really missing the boat here.


These problems were always there but the great stuff kept our family going.

what great stuff? I didn't see or hear of any. Oh, she's really pretty? Is that the great stuff?

Seriously, I am asking you, is that what's great about your m and her? IF that's it, I can imagine her self esteem would be low

b/c looks fade and every woman knows it. So does every man.


However, her issues kept growing inside, as well as her unhappiness.

She is basically saying we are incompatible. Her biggest complaint is that I did not listen to her, that I would take over the conversation and overwhelm her.

Okay so here is ONE thing she said that YOU can work on....So what 180s are YOU doing to contrast that negative image she has, with the new "listening" you?

There's some truth to this in that we were polar opposites in that I was the breadwinner of the family, and would see any problem as an issue to be fixed immediately. It was my nature to go at problems directly to fix them, while she would hide away from any issue.

Wait....What do either of these traits^^^ of yours, have to do with being a poor listener? You just touched on a real complaint of hers and then glossed right over it...and the complaint was that you don't listen to her (or value her opinion??) And then you skip her concern and talk about yourself and your interesting quirks (but not flaws) and then you criticize her, again.

Do you see where you managed to put her down again at the end, after supposedly addressing a flaw of yours? And you didn't address the flaw; you explained and excused it.


Basically she has reached the end of her rope, is burnt out, depressed, unsure of herself in every aspect of her life, not sure what she wants (including H and kids), wants to be alone and not have to answer to anyone. She is seeing a psychiatrist and is on an antianxiety medication. This has been going on since March and I see her getting worse.

I read that 90% of women on anti-depressants have critical spouses. Any truth to that in your sitch? Just asking what you think of that statistic.

Again, if this is all going to be about how flawed and wrong SHE IS and how you are understandably flummoxed,

then you have little hope of changing the M b/c you are not really looking at yourself to change. You sound like you want her to get it, and not like you want to get it or change you.

Sorry but the success rate around here is way higher for those marriages in which the LBSer changes the most and first...and sometimes without any reciprocal change in the WAS...but the LBSer is still a better person for it.


Here's what happens when we are lucky...

Sometimes the WAS sees it, and wants back in...b/c they miss what they could have had...and the LBSer sees that her approach to a flawed neglectful h could have been warmer and more loving

and sometimes she sees that it's not about being "right"; it's about being happy.

And sometimes she gets lucky and becomes a woman only a fool would leave, and sometimes her h isn't a fool anymore.

Best news I ever got from a mc was NOT that h was selfish or wrong, but that I had some work to do.

B/c then I was Not powerless in the demise of my m. You are not either, unless you choose to blame her for all of this.

If she has an a, and she's at least having an EA, in her mind you probably pushed her into his arms.

Doesn't make her or the A right. But stop acting as if this is all totally a shock to you or inexplicable.

I barely know you and yet I can imagine she HAS been lonely and depressed and you have shut her down.

How could she feel good about her life or herself, the way YOU described it, and her?




She is saying that she never really made any decisions in her life, basically let things happen, and that she has f'd up her life. She never really did had the normal formative years that many of us do - college, independence, freedom as a single person, etc. I can see how with all of this going on in her head and that it has reached critical mass, she needs to break off and figure it all out.

It's just so awful to do when my W has written me off as a human being, never mind 24 yr marriage partner. It's so hard not to be a part of her life anymore, nor maybe forever. I'm doing my best though, but as sad as humanly possible while doing it!

explain this^^...are you being sad as humanly possible around her and your sons or what? I don't know what that means there.

And since you must have heard by now, you can believe NONE of what she says and only half of what she does. Stop paying attention to the scary monsters in your head that tell you that you are not a part of her life anymore.

That's Not irrevocable. Not much in this situation is.

Thank you so much. You are so kind.

I'm not big on confronting about an A, unless you are saying it's an absolute deal breaker if true.

OR you are sure you are going to DO something about it (in the legal sense, not breaking legs)

And you don't have to confront for that anyhow. But if you want to

keep the Road Home, Paved and Smooth...you might not want to make it so hard for her to return. And confronting and blaming and telling others...makes it a lot harder for her.

Shame and guilt will backfire on you also. Plus they don't really have a place in a loving m, do they?

Do you want to repair this marriage?

Can you step back and work on you and only you?

Can you GAL? Can you describe 2 180s you are doing?

Can you be the best dad you can be so your boys don't feel like both their parents are AWOL?

Can you understand that your w sounds as if she is in full MLC and possibly has good reason for being unhappy in the marriage

That's actually good news--YOU can do something about it

it's NOT good news to hear that the "marriage was GREAT" and suddenly she was gone...makes no sense. Makes you a powerless victim. Do you get that?

If you want to be in charge of your life, than take charge of it.

That means YOU and only you are responsible for your happiness.
Work on being the best YOU that you can be. What does RIck need to work on other than being a better listener? May I guess that Rick needs to be less critical? have you read The Five Love Languages?

Next to the DB books I'd say it's among the best marriage books I've read.

I'd guess your Love Language (the way you show it) is not what your w wants or needs to hear or receive...

Lead by example. Show your sons the same...give your w space and time and stop worrying about all her symptoms (the cousin is a symptom, not a cause of the problems and if you focus only on him,

you'll miss the chance of a lifetime.)

Hope this helps.

[rickb89]

Okay. I'm starting to figure out how this blog works and will use this as my main thread because it has most of the info on my sitch.

I am doing my best to DB and it I find it so confusing and difficult.

Right now my W is still living at home with me and the kids, and staying dettached from us all, spending the bulk of her time in a room of her own.

She is in a full-blown EA and speaks to the OM (my cousin) around the clock. Many people are aware it is going on, including my sons, my MIL who lives with us and my cousin's brother. The anger towards my cousin is enormous, and many people are very upset with my W. The stress on me is enormous as I am in the middle of all this trying to help my wife, my sons and everyone around us. My cousin lives in another state so the distance has prevented a physical confrontation, and I have had to speak to my sons and my cousin's brother who have all at times wanted to harm my cousin. I understand that this EA is a symptom of the problem, not the cause, however it is massively painful to deal with.

My W is in a constant state of emotional upheaval and cannot seems to find answers to her current life crisis, which for her encompasses her entire life situation, not just our M. She is seeing a psychiatrist and I cannot really tell if it helps or not.

What she has asked for is for time to stop the train she has been on for years. She wants to evaluate her entire life, evaluate her choices and non-choices over her life, learn to grow up, decide who she really is and then hopefully live her life happily. She has asked that when we she does decide to share things with me she just wants to me to hear her, listen, go away and think about it before presenting my opinion. She has said she has been extremely unhappy for years.

As for our M she has said that she has been unhappy in it for years, married too early, never did the things most people did to mature on her own (moved in with me at 19), never really was able to reconcile her inner most feelings (if she even knew what they were) with her outer life. She has said she feels we are incompatible, and do not bring out the best in each other. She has said she felt that she could not rely on me.

What I am having a lot of difficulty with is that she will give exampes to back these feelings up and when I hear them, I know that she feels this way, but I feel she is misreading each example as far as it relates to what I was doing, feeling, intent, etc. I can't explain how amazed I am by our differing perceptions of the same incidents.

I am letting her talk when she wants, not doing all of the pursuing actions (and I did them all at first), not being confrontational about the EA (and that is unbearably tough for me), GAL of my own, being as pleasant as I can, etc.

I am not sure if I can see any small changes in favor of our marriage. She is still with me however. I worry that the more I DB and let her go, the more she will continue the EA. I worry that if I keep letting her talk about her bad feelings in our marriage, and not be willing to discuss both views of the issues then she will continue to accept her feelings as the Truth about us and will not be willing to reconcile. I worry that she is only staying in our house for economic reasons. I worry that I am being used while she continues the EA.

So I go about my days, I listen to her, I give her space and freedom, I take care of the house (I'm doing this alone), I take care of the kids (I've been Mr Mom since this started). It's not easy. I have been told by so many that while they respect my ability to honor my love and marriage to her by staying, that I am just being a dumbass and should kick her out for good (my sons feel this way too).

I know this sounds like any country song you could lsiten to (poor old me) but I really do not know what the right course to take is. By heart tells me to give this time (its already been six months) until it plays out. I do want us to reconcile. I can work on this with her even with the EA, but I would draw the line if there is a PA.

I plan to not confront her with my opinions and views when she is choosing to share her feelings with me. I hope this works within the realm of DB'ing.

As time passes however, I am starting to forget what it was like to live with her as H/W. I'm starting to long for some peace, and have started visualizing living without her. I figure I have to start mentally and emotionally preparing for this in case it happens.

Any thoughts from you great people out there? Any advice? Thanks so much!!!

[rickb89]

25yearmlc - thank you for your response and kindness. I will do my best to answer your questions.

I could have listened to her better over the years, I really did not respect or trust many of her decisions and so I would really hard sell my opinion of what is right to do or not do. Given that she was so fragile (now I see how much she was suffering emotionally in so many parts of her life)I wish I could have found a better way to get us to be at a place where we could have made better decisons as H&W. Whatever we could not resolve we both internalized for years. I wish I could have understood her better, that I somehow could have got past my own pain and perceptions to get to a place where we could have actually communicated. I wish I had understood her needs better. That all she really needed was the small things from me to be happy. While I fought to support the family, while I took on the world I missed in many cases opportunities to give her the little gifts that mean so much to her.

I realize that I have presented a laundry list of her past problems and that I did not mention any of her good qualities. I mentioned only the problems because I wanted to present the background for what bacame issues throughout our marriage, and what lead to todays WAW. I realize that I brought baggage. I brought an overwhelming urge to beat the world, to survive and provide for my family because of my familes divorce and subsequent poverty. My fear from childhood that anyone could make a choice that could doom your family unit and survival and you could have no say in it whatsoever, made it very tough for me to deal with my W's issues. I did feel powerless against it as you have pointed out.

I married my W because she has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known, a heart and a giving nature that I saw as extraordinary. Also, we had the same desires for family, and a love for the world in much the same way. Yeah, I saw the issues between us right fron the start but I felt that love would get us over each issue. I thought that logic alone would tell her that something destructive would make no sense to continue, so the the only outcome would be to change it for the better. It had to happen because we would want to be happy, and have a successful loving family.

25yearsmlc - I am trying to as open as I can to your comments but what pattern am I missing? Go ahead and use the 2 * 4! I do want to work on what I can control. I'm afraid that my real problem is that I could not face the truth, that in my desire to have the W and family I always wanted I overlooked so much, which eventually came back to haunt me. I feel like if I really took a stand on the things that were tough for me I would have lost my W and family. I really let things go that should have been resolved and I did not have it in me to take a stand. In its place I became angry, I became focused on what I thought I could control, I continually verbalized what was tough and all of that contributed to negativity, and her unhappiness.

We did have a lot of greatness in our family as well. We love our kids to death and they were happy in many ways, we shared so many of the typical family things. My W and I shared a lot of common parts of our lives. There was fun, love and it kept it all going. We just did not have the tools and communication skills to do more than table our difficulties until it reached critical mass.

You asked whether I have succeeded in a 180 where her issue was that I did not allow her to speak, that I overwhelmed her with her with my force of opinion. I don't think I have until very recently been able to do that because the threat of our marriage ending made me even try harder, in my way. But, I think I have finally got it and have been successful of late. I'm now trying to figure out how we can meet somewhere in the middle in communicating, but right now she only wants to be heard when she wants to speak. She has asked that when she talks I just listen and don't talk, but instead take some time with what she has said.

Okay, so I have written a laundry list of what I saw her as doing to harm the marriage. I do see that in my handling of the problems I was very critical, and made her feel lonely. What I don't understand is how I could have comunicated better with her, without alienating her? If I began approaching each issue with an open heart and mind and that did not stop what was harmful, if I could not talk it through, nor let it go without the problems continuing what could I have done better? I used to be so patient. I used to listen for hours and would have done anything to show her her fears were unfounded. I did not want to end up speaking to her so strongly. Please note that I was not verbally abusive. I did not call her names. I was however, desperate to solve the issues because if I didn't they were killing me, and killing our family's chance of survival. What can I do better?

You ask me why I say I'm as sad as humanly possible. How that cannot be self evident to you? There isn't one bit of love or affection from her, there's the EA, there's her walking away in almost every manner. There's my sons being abandoned too. There's such a feeling of the death of a M and family. I'm here willing to do my part to improve and asking for anyone with insight to pls tell me what they think I could be better at. It might be said to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, but that is so tough to do.

Okay, so am working on myself and GAL. I am taking all of your advise to heart and putting into practice. I have always been taking care of my sons, showing my committment to the M, and doing my best to leave the path back to the family open. It's tough though. How do you do this when the WAS is having an emotional affair from within our house? I do not confront about it, and when my sons complain to me about it I explain to them that this is only a symptom and there is a much bigger picture their Mom is dealing with right now, and to be there for her when she needs us.

BTW I did read Five Love Languages. And I do see that I did not show love to my W in the way she needed (the small gifts as signs of love).

I really do appreciate your feedback. Thank you.

[rickb89]

Hello fellow DB'ers. Would you consider this to be on the right track? Input is desperately req'd!

My WAW is living in our home, yet completely emotionally separated from the kids and me, involved in an around the clock EA, contributes little to the household in terms of typical family stuff, has incredible mood swings, and has crushed us financially. She has told us that she is resolving a lifetime of issues and is not sure what she will be in the end, nor how she will figure into the family in the end, if at all. In short its a lot of PTSD, and a full-blown MLC. She has asked for solitude and that if she chooses to share anything to just hear her out and make no immediate response. She has said she is so burnt out she cannot handle anyone's else's needs, and does not want to be burdened with guilt.

To GAL I am doing the following. I have let her go her own way. I don't confront her about the EA, which I have done before. I don't discuss our R or M and if she brings it up I just listen to hear and ask questions to clarify. I have stopped giving her my opinion or take on things although it kills me not to. I have my own parts of my life I enjoy and have been actively involved in all of it - hanging with my sons, yoga, reading, hiking, movies, friends. I am single handedly and silently getting us out of debt, then need to fix up the house so that if we D or S I will have an option of selling the house and recovering some of the equity to be used to start a new life. I am investigating the ins and outs of divorce and custody. I am not making any demands on her and I am being as pleasant, silent and nuetral as I can be under the circumstances. Yes, I initially did all the normal reactions that people do when the bomb dropped but have learned about DB'ing since then. I am mentally and emotionally detaching and am looking forward as if I am going to be a single Dad.

This is not easy to do. Her EA is with my cousin so i feel doubly betrayed and have just enough clarity left to stop myself from providing some much needed street justice to my cousin, and have stopped my sons from doing the same. While I do feel such anger deep inside I am looking to follow the enlightened path in all aspects of this. Its tough to do when we all know the EA is unending and constant.

I have vowed to show my sons what the honorable thing to do is in terms of allowing another to find their way even though it may be at great expense to myself, and that my marriage vow to her means something. It's so tough because everyone (including my sons) thinks I should make her leave and move on. I have vowed to let her work this through all the way to the end, but frankly I wonder if I am just being blind to reality. Maybe all of this DB'ing is just giving her the opportunity to create a new life for herself on her own timetable.

Thoughts? Thanks!

[Finah]

has crushed us financially.

You need to start securing your finances....EA/PA doesn't matter, they are known to burn thru money.

She has told us that she is resolving a lifetime of issues and is not sure what she will be in the end, nor how she will figure into the family in the end, if at all.

That's mature.

She has asked for solitude

One way ticket to the moon perhaps?

and that if she chooses to share anything to just hear her out and make no immediate response.

wow if I was a woman I hope to find a guy like you who would just let me talk and offer nothing in return.

She has said she is so burnt out she cannot handle anyone's else's needs,

She seems to have no problem meeting the needs of POSOM.

and does not want to be burdened with guilt.

Yeah why deal with reality this is much more fun.

For example, she will see my unhappiness and her not trusting me as a reason for her feeling bad about us but will not discuss what is behind it all. So basically I get told over and over about her bad feelings but she will not discuss any issue in depth. If I try to reason, it pushes her further away. It's tough because I don't want to agree with her when its not justified and if I keep quiet she feels that she is right and we are not compatible, but if I try to talk about it she says this is evidence that we can't get along.

My WW is kind of like this in a sense, which really I don't think is good at all, the EA/PA's that resolve mainly around that issue......never really end good.

A lot of the success stories revolve around the notion that most who are having the A......have no intention of leaving their family.........but they don't want to lose their A partner either........and when push come to shove it's usually the family that wins out.

This kind of just shutting down and leaving everything behind.......is a serious issue w/ ur W, which you know.

Reflected sense of self, fusion, the whole 9. She see's that you are unhappy which makes her unhappy, your attempts at GAL don't work on her b/c she doesn't trust them, she doesn't trust them b/c it doesn't change how she feels, her inability to self soothe when you are happy.

Meaning her happiness doesn't come from w/ in...... Hence her EA, which probably makes her happy on some degree, but she is quite conflicted b/c she is not completely happy and can't figure out why.

She will continue to pull farther and farther away b/c she see's you as a source of the unhappiness, you, the kids, the house.

Rick.......you are coming up on 9 months of this.

You keep this up much longer and you will run yourself into the ground.

Time for a separation in my opinion. And she is the one to go, not you.

I think you have to make this happen somehow, even if she is unwilling to leave.

The thing with your cousin.....isn't going to last, it won't work, your entire family from the sounds of it will ostracize them to the fullest.

But I'm afraid that if you stay w/ her........she is going to constantly see you as the problem, the whole trust thing, funny coming from someone who is having an A.

And if she hasn't ended her EA by now.......which sounds like a PA to me.....

Then it's time for some change, b/c this isn't working.

1 rule though........the kids stay with you, at all cost, they are more important than your W at this point.

Really I think there is a good chance this might be saved.......but a separation sounds like its in order.

Just my opinion though......9 months + unwilling to end her EA/PA.......someone needs to go.

[25yearsmlc]

rick,

I appreciate the rarity of someone asking for 2 x 4's and I know what you mean is you are fine with me being direct. So I will be. I will also play devil's advocate b/c most of what you are hearing in your real life is the same anti-marriage crap we all heard, "kick them out" "teach them a lesson" etc...

that does 2 really destructive things. It HURTS the marriages AND it prevents our own growth b/c we focus on dumping the party we labelled as the "guilty" ones. Your well meaning friends and family want peace and predictability most...and that's not what we are aiming for on this site.

We are aiming for the preservation OR restoration of a marriage and that ALWAYS requires change on OUR END (the LBSer) and we must make the first 100 changes or more, before we can even hope that the WAS will reciprocate....

so don't focus on HER flaws and what SHE needs to work on b/c you have plenty of your owns tuff....

I have no idea how ALL these people in your family know about the EA but it does you and them NO GOOD to know.

Makes it harder for her to recover from IF she were so inclined, and if you have not noticed already, it hurts their support of your marriage...they just want it over. They like black and white answers and movement...when that might not be in YOUR interest.

So here goes...

25yearmlc - thank you for your response and kindness. I will do my best to answer your questions.

I could have listened to her better over the years, I really did not respect or trust many of her decisions and so I would really hard sell my opinion of what is right to do or not do. Given that she was so fragile

this^^^ is a BIG DEAL...it doesn't matter that she was "fragile" (Why even mention that?) To me is tounds like you were bullying her or bludgeoning til you got your way.

Naturally, to YOU, your solutions were "Logical" but that's not how it must have felt to her...and btw, there are often more than one answer to a problem and logic can exist on both sides of a problem or issue.


(now I see how much she was suffering emotionally in so many parts of her life)I wish I could have found a better way to get us to be at a place where we could have made better decisons as H&W.

like partners of equal worth...which she was not in your eyes, based on other comments You have made. You just finished saying you did not respect her opinions...so I'd start with THAT as a way of changing how you interact.

People know full well if someone disrespects them and only give lip service to the concept of "building consensus". IOW she knew you'd get your way b/c you did not respect her way, and you knew it too. You wanted her to be happy enough to stay, but not at the expense of you not getting your way.

DO you see how that happened? It does not make you the worst guy in the world- but it's common- and rarely addressed until it's too late.

She's still in the house so it's not too late...


Whatever we could not resolve we both internalized for years. I wish I could have understood her better, that I somehow could have got past my own pain and perceptions to get to a place where we could have actually communicated. I wish I had understood her needs better. That all she really needed was the small things from me to be happy. While I fought to support the family, while I took on the world I missed in many cases opportunities to give her the little gifts that mean so much to her.

I realize that I have presented a laundry list of her past problems and that I did not mention any of her good qualities. I mentioned only the problems because I wanted to present the background for what bacame issues throughout our marriage, and what lead to todays WAW. I realize that I brought baggage.

I brought an overwhelming urge to beat the world, to survive and provide for my family because of my familes divorce and subsequent poverty.

not sure what this^^^ means. The terms sound angry though.


My fear from childhood that anyone could make a choice that could doom your family unit and survival and you could have no say in it whatsoever, made it very tough for me to deal with my W's issues. I did feel powerless against it as you have pointed out.

But much of your own behavior brought this very thing about. You sound extremely controlling and "right" and that need to control cut her out. Which is how she ended up feeling as she has.

I'm not saying it's "ALL" your fault but do you see how the fears of losing control often lead us to be too controlling - and then we bring about the very thing we most fear? This happens a lot.


I married my W because she has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known, a heart and a giving nature that I saw as extraordinary. Also, we had the same desires for family, and a love for the world in much the same way.

Yeah, I saw the issues between us right fron the start

what were they? How did you work on solving them or moving towards each other where there were gaps?


but I felt that love would get us over each issue. I thought that logic alone would tell her that something destructive would make no sense to continue, so the the only outcome would be to change it for the better. It had to happen because we would want to be happy, and have a successful loving family.

Let me try a possible translation of the above, "my opinion is logical and therefore MY opinion is "right" (happy does not matter) and therefore what I want is, conveniently enough, what we should always do and follow...strangely, this did NOT please HER but alas, SHE is not logical....she is wrong..

Rick-if SHE thought the happy family solution was so obvious, she would have chosen it. Isn't it odd that you assume YOUR choices are best for all, over the years, and always were, and yet she was miserable? Even you admit she has been unhappy a long time...your logic assessments overlooked her misery. Does not sound so logical to me.


25yearsmlc - I am trying to as open as I can to your comments but what pattern am I missing? Go ahead and use the 2 * 4!

I THINK and I could easily be wrong as I'm going only on what I see here and my experience as a wife...but you bludgeoned her and possibly everyone else in your family, with your wants/needs "explanations" that were self serving. I think it was selfish behavior, and you left your w's needs and wants out of the picture for a long time. She had baggage too, and though that is not your fault, ignoring it was an odd but convenient choice to make, don't you think?



I do want to work on what I can control. I'm afraid that my real problem is that I could not face the truth, that in my desire to have the W and family I always wanted I overlooked so much, which eventually came back to haunt me.

this^^^ is probably true and it will take bravery on your part to address it. But it's the brave ones who succeed here. And it's not for the cowardly to look deep within, where the real journey is...


I feel like if I really took a stand on the things that were tough for me I would have lost my W and family.

Not sure what you are referring to...^^^

I really let things go that should have been resolved and I did not have it in me to take a stand. In its place I became angry, I became focused on what I thought I could control, I continually verbalized what was tough and all of that contributed to negativity, and her unhappiness.


well those are important insights. Work on doing the opposite of this. 180s...the negativity [censored] out the will of many around it. Like a vortex...watch for that.


We did have a lot of greatness in our family as well. We love our kids to death and they were happy in many ways, we shared so many of the typical family things. My W and I shared a lot of common parts of our lives. There was fun, love and it kept it all going. We just did not have the tools and communication skills to do more than table our difficulties until it reached critical mass.

Get the tools. You'll need them in life no matter what else happens...no one "likes" conflict resolution. But avoiding conflict is more or less guaranteeing more of it...
if she's willing to go to c for THAT ALONE, it'll help (and might get her to discuss other things. But YOU will need to do a lot of "owning up" for a while for her to trust that it won't all be about kicking her to the curb for her "once in a life time run for happiness" fantasy).

Tell your sons to STOP JUDGING THEIR MOTHER...show some respect. They have no idea what she has been through and it's YOUR job to stop them. I'm appalled at what you say they tell you. Why do you have those types of conversations?

My fear is you are whining/blaming and so angry that they want YOU to be quiet and in the past -- that only happened when you got your way, which was usually an angry thing...


You asked whether I have succeeded in a 180 where her issue was that I did not allow her to speak, that I overwhelmed her with her with my force of opinion. I don't think I have until very recently been able to do that because the threat of our marriage ending made me even try harder, in my way.

well that's disquieting, given that your "way" has been pretty darn forceful so ==you bullied her into silence but now you want her to share more? Um, gee, I doubt she's feeling like sharing much now...

But, I think I have finally got it and have been successful of late. I'm now trying to figure out how we can meet somewhere in the middle in communicating, but right now she only wants to be heard when she wants to speak. She has asked that when she talks I just listen and don't talk, but instead take some time with what she has said.

THEN SHUT THE HELL UP. Don't work on getting in the middle of it..Just shut up for once.... yes, that's right. Do NOT tell her how you feel. I'd bet A LOT OF MONEY she knows...b/c that's all she heard for years.

She's being clear with you. Do NOT argue with her or react with Your needs...just listen to her...may be hard for you, but it is NOT complicated...thank her for her clarity and in this one small thing, SHOW HER YOU HEAR HER and are not putting your need to be heard, again, at her expense, again, over her request to be heard. LISTEN TO HER....how can you think arguing NOW would help your cause, given the pattern of the past?

A real 180 here is available. Shut up and listen to her. HEAR what she says as it is valuable info...consider it a "recon" mission....put the transmitter in receive only...No transmissions from you....


Okay, so I have written a laundry list of what I saw her as doing to harm the marriage. I do see that in my handling of the problems I was very critical, and made her feel lonely.

among other things..also unwanted, unvalued, held in contempt even?? (your first review of the m was almost totally hostile to her, imo)

and years of being critisized take a toll on a woman. Have you read the Five Love Languages? You may find that her love tank is NOT what you thought it was and that's it's close to empty now and has been running on fumes for awhile.

Your way of showing love for her before, and I don't know what it was, clearly wasn't in her love language and that matters.


What I don't understand is how I could have comunicated better with her, without alienating her? If I began approaching each issue with an open heart and mind and that did not stop what was harmful, if I could not talk it through, nor let it go without the problems continuing what could I have done better?

start with listening-NOT fixing or answering or telling her what you feel. Just put your transmitter in "receive only" mode. And as for what you are describing above, are you saying you have done that? Since when? If it's recent, then it's too new for her to feel safe with the changes yet.


I used to be so patient. I used to listen for hours and would have done anything to show her her fears were unfounded.

I did not want to end up speaking to her so strongly. Please note that I was not verbally abusive. I

so then what? You raised your voice (yelling tends to make the recipient NOT care at all about content, merely that they are being verbally bullied and yes, abused...yelling IS not okay) OR were you just relentlessly arguing til you got your way or what? Your earlier descriptions of your communications don't sound like calm level headed give and take sessions...

did not call her names. I was however, desperate to solve the issues because if I didn't they were killing me, and killing our family's chance of survival. What can I do better?

What are you talking about and when? This^^ descriptions does NOT jive with your other self described ways of communicating, and getting your way with your "logical" arguments and purusing them until it went your way.. but for now she asked you to LISTEN to her and process and ponder for much longer before responding and

even then I'm not sure you ought to say much. Your words don't mean a lot right now and mostly can only hurt your cause unless they are words of peace and affirmation.

You ask me why I say I'm as sad as humanly possible. How that cannot be self evident to you?

I asked IF you were making the changes and SHOWING how sad you were at the same time. That's what I said...b/c then the martyr routine won't help and it only makes it seem like the "Changes" are tactics used to get her back or achieve your strategic goal, and not to become the man you hope to become, ie. your best self....


There isn't one bit of love or affection from her, there's the EA, there's her walking away in almost every manner. There's my sons being abandoned too. There's such a feeling of the death of a M and family.

How appealing to her....You are supposed to be modelling a PMA and GAL...but I'm guessing you are not and it's Not all her fault. Do you see how that is something YOU can and ought to change? Don't project your pain onto everyone else there.

Remember the DB rules about behavior now?

Be upbeat, pleasant, looking forward to what life is offering you. You have healthy sons. Enjoy them. You have had "an awakening", etc.

Did you really "get" what the Div Busting books said about how YOUR attitude needs to be attractive and attractING?

You are (supposed to be) modelling for your son's the fact that YOU and ONLY YOU are in charge of your happiness- just as they are for theirs ....show them that. Detach from your w's actions and do some fun things with or without her.

Besides, who wants to be with a man who is so "Sad as humanly possible'?

Sorry but your neediness is going to be a huge turn off just as you need to show the oppposite. Be a man only a fool would leave

and show the opposites of the negative images she has of you.


I'm here willing to do my part to improve and asking for anyone with insight to pls tell me what they think I could be better at. It might be said to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, but that is so tough to do.

don't ask your w for feedback of any kind right now. Live your life as well as you can. Make it a good one. Give her something to miss, or think about...by having a fun loving life and be as loving with your boys as possible.

IF your w died, you would not shrivel up in the fetal position and never laugh again. So don't do that now.

Imagine your w has "gone for good" and time has passed and you are happy...what does that look like? Envision it. Now try to create some of that NOW in your life...


Okay, so am working on myself and GAL. I am taking all of your advise to heart and putting into practice. I have always been taking care of my sons, showing my committment to the M, and doing my best to leave the path back to the family open. It's tough though.

this is nice stuff but what GAL are you doing? Be specific...I joined 2-3 clubs, AND a writer's group, I auditioned for shows, I worked out, I volunteered at a woman's shelter, I was in a ski club, I took a class, so, THAT is what I mean when I say "GAL"...meet new people, do things I had put off, etc. Had some fun, helped others and myself, etc.


How do you do this when the WAS is having an emotional affair from within our house?

YOU GAL AND GET OUT OF THE HOUSE...see above.. A little mystery would not hurt either. She does not need to know YOUR whereabouts at all times...

I do not confront about it, and when my sons complain to me about it I explain to them that this is only a symptom and there is a much bigger picture their Mom is dealing with right now, and to be there for her when she needs us.

how do they know this EA stuff??? Why are they complaining to YOU?


BTW I did read Five Love Languages. And I do see that I did not show love to my W in the way she needed (the small gifts as signs of love).

I'm betting there is at least one more LL she had (we usually have more than one) and were there opposites That you did? I mean, if she did value gifts, are you the type that ignored birthdays?

I find a lot of women like gifts on special days like that, but they have another LL too....quality time, touching of affection not always leading to sex, acts of service, etc. Think about it...she sure likes being heard...

But I'm Glad you read it.

I really do appreciate your feedback. Thank you.

good luck, seriously.

Tell those who want you to give her the boot that they are NOT helping you.

And trust me, WE all heard things like that. It's not helpful even when well meant.

[rickb89]

25yearmlc - thank you for your response and kindness. I will do my best to answer your questions.

I could have listened to her better over the years, I really did not respect or trust many of her decisions and so I would really hard sell my opinion of what is right to do or not do. Given that she was so fragile

this^^^ is a BIG DEAL...it doesn't matter that she was "fragile" (Why even mention that?) To me is tounds like you were bullying her or bludgeoning til you got your way.

Naturally, to YOU, your solutions were "Logical" but that's not how it must have felt to her...and btw, there are often more than one answer to a problem and logic can exist on both sides of a problem or issue.

Okay thanks for your feedback and yes your points make sense. Yes, there are more than one solution to a problem and logic can exist on both sides of a problem or issue. What if you're not offered any solutions? What if we were being destroyed by the staus quo yet no alternatives were being considered. Let me be more specific with examples and get your input. One example is trust. She could not give it, ever, and I never gave her any reason to mistrust me. Yes, she married me and had kids with me but the mistrust was always there and was so destructive. Everything and anything that involved a female was suspect and I was treated as such. On the other hand she could be friends with anyone she wanted, and even was obviously flirtateous. There was a destructive double standard in our lives. She had things happen in her childhood that could have been the root cause of this. Okay, so I tried being loving, patient, logical, discussing it, tried suggesting therapy, anything and everything I could think of. I was pushed and pushed and still kept calm and tried my best to see it work out. I know that she definitely felt judged by this. What could I have done differently? I listened to her telling me she didn't know why she was like this and to her credit would try and make up for it, but how does anyone keep getting slammed by this for years? How is my reaction to this bullying and bludgeoning til I got My Way? My Way never existed, nor apparently her way. I know my frustration with this caused her unhappiness, but what could I have done? So, if I tried to work it out, and it was brutal, then my frustration is considered to whining, bullying? I could have given an ultimatum I guess but I believe that there has to be a way that resolves this for people.

Yes, I know I have to work on myself (the first hundred steps of change). Asking you these questions is my attempt to find a way out of this mental entanglement. I do see that I judged her negatively here, but I do feel I was so trapped by not being able to find a means for us to get over this that I was unhappy and stopped sharing areas of my life that I should have been able to share with her safely. She kept twisting everything into a scenario for mistrust.

What about our finances? She refused to be part of it, face it or work with me on it. To her credit she did work and would pool what she earned with me. That was where it stopped though. She would not face any of the big decisions with me on these things and would just make her own choices that would inevitably put us in a world of trouble. I tried everything I could think of to work with her on it, showing her how it all works, talking to her, writing things down so she could see how they worked, having her get her own account, etc. In the end she would always spend beyond what we had, etc. I worked around the clock to make ends meet, all along. I took care of all the finances myself and it was enormous pressure. In the end she would focus on what made her happy - the kids, things she likes, etc.; which is great but this enormous responsibility does not go away and I really had an ongoing problem with it. Ironically, she is unhappy that I spent so much time in the office working at it.

I'm not cheap, I'm was never unable to be with her and my family and enjoy things, however I did have to work harder and longer to stay afloat in this. And no, my childhood fear of poverty did not warp me in that I was seeing threats that weren't really there. It was all too real and I worked my butt off to deal with it, and tried to work with her to find some sort of solution that would not ruin our finances.

Yes, she saw my unhappiness with this and yes felt judged. How could I have handled this differently?

(now I see how much she was suffering emotionally in so many parts of her life)I wish I could have found a better way to get us to be at a place where we could have made better decisons as H&W.

like partners of equal worth...which she was not in your eyes, based on other comments You have made. You just finished saying you did not respect her opinions...so I'd start with THAT as a way of changing how you interact.


People know full well if someone disrespects them and only give lip service to the concept of "building consensus". IOW she knew you'd get your way b/c you did not respect her way, and you knew it too. You wanted her to be happy enough to stay, but not at the expense of you not getting your way.

As far as getting my way, that never happened. I wanted the respect to be trusted to share my entire life with her and not be shackled by a double standard. I wanted to make sure our family was financially sound in the short and long term. You're right I did want my way in that. That's what I believe should happen in a marriage and family. How could I build consensus by myself? I know this stuff sucked for both of us. Please, and I am desperate in this. What could have/can I do to work with her on these things? I have always been so willing to comprimise but what was happening was so in the extreme and threatening. I feel like you're not seeing how difficult these issues were and when I showed my frustration I was also responsible for pushing her away.

DO you see how that happened? It does not make you the worst guy in the world- but it's common- and rarely addressed until it's too late.

Please share with me how I can handle conflict resolution differently? If you're partner is not going to stop or change, and all my manners of trying to work with it are not working, then what to do? I would always end up at the same point (and by then she had experienced my frustration). Walk away? Just let things go on destructively? Lose my home and have the kids suffer it? Allow a double standard to go on forever? How do you do you do it right when you have tried to be empathetic, tried calm conversations, willingness to comprimise, etc?

You are hearing me at the tail end of this, at the point of living with a WAW. I get the impression that you think I was some sort of tyrant. I was anything but that. I was as gentle as could humanly be in this, and yes there was anger and frustration. I don't know what I can do differently.



She's still in the house so it's not too late...


Whatever we could not resolve we both internalized for years. I wish I could have understood her better, that I somehow could have got past my own pain and perceptions to get to a place where we could have actually communicated. I wish I had understood her needs better. That all she really needed was the small things from me to be happy. While I fought to support the family, while I took on the world I missed in many cases opportunities to give her the little gifts that mean so much to her.

I realize that I have presented a laundry list of her past problems and that I did not mention any of her good qualities. I mentioned only the problems because I wanted to present the background for what bacame issues throughout our marriage, and what lead to todays WAW. I realize that I brought baggage.

I brought an overwhelming urge to beat the world, to survive and provide for my family because of my familes divorce and subsequent poverty.

not sure what this^^^ means. The terms sound angry though.

I am just saying that I had a tough background and was motivated to make sure I was a good provider, father, husband, etc. I channelled this into areas where I could improve my life and family's life. I worked very hard, am honest, got my college degree, gave my time as a martial arts instructer and coach, worked on social economic issues so that I could have a hand in bettering the world so that people may not have to suffer as I did. Yes, my wife has her altruistic ways too and she has a great heart so I'm not saying I am a saint and she's not. I am however saying that I was not blinded by my past to an extent that I could not see some solutions to adult problems.

I said earlier that I wish I had been able to just listen to her better. You know I actually started out that way but as the problems lasted and the pain grew I really could not hear her explanations any longer. I lost faith in anything changing. I really felt I had the answers to things but I see that they weren't the answers for her. What could I have done differently once I was at the end of my rope? I would try and try to talk these things through but once I got on a roll she would shut down.

My fear from childhood that anyone could make a choice that could doom your family unit and survival and you could have no say in it whatsoever, made it very tough for me to deal with my W's issues. I did feel powerless against it as you have pointed out.

But much of your own behavior brought this very thing about. You sound extremely controlling and "right" and that need to control cut her out. Which is how she ended up feeling as she has.

I'm not saying it's "ALL" your fault but do you see how the fears of losing control often lead us to be too controlling - and then we bring about the very thing we most fear? This happens a lot.

That's odd because I feel I have no control whatsover over anything. I'm not sure what I could have done differently? If I let it all go the way it was, we were doomed financially. If I let the issue of mistrust go unacknowledged then I was allowing a destructive force to rule our marriage. Yes, I saw these as challenges and chose to meet them head on, but in the end my way did not work with her way. How could I have saved us without making her feel the way she does? I really don't understand.
I married my W because she has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known, a heart and a giving nature that I saw as extraordinary. Also, we had the same desires for family, and a love for the world in much the same way.

Yeah, I saw the issues between us right fron the start

what were they? How did you work on solving them or moving towards each other where there were gaps?

The one thing I can see is that when we spoke about issues, the clearly stated goal to find a solution was not how the discussions happened. I used to say to her all the time that she would start each conversation out by being visibly upset and then tell me how I or something about us made her unhappy. I would usually feel very unjustly acused and would really press my case that what she was perceiving in me was not the case. She admits she would get overwhelmed and close down, which only made me try harder. The fact that we had issues that I felt we could not resolve based on our history only made me more fearful that this would be another feeling she would have and act on and that anything I said or did would really have no affect on her opinion.

but I felt that love would get us over each issue. I thought that logic alone would tell her that something destructive would make no sense to continue, so the the only outcome would be to change it for the better. It had to happen because we would want to be happy, and have a successful loving family.

Let me try a possible translation of the above, "my opinion is logical and therefore MY opinion is "right" (happy does not matter) and therefore what I want is, conveniently enough, what we should always do and follow...strangely, this did NOT please HER but alas, SHE is not logical....she is wrong..

Rick-if SHE thought the happy family solution was so obvious, she would have chosen it. Isn't it odd that you assume YOUR choices are best for all, over the years, and always were, and yet she was miserable? Even you admit she has been unhappy a long time...your logic assessments overlooked her misery. Does not sound so logical to me.


25yearsmlc - I am trying to as open as I can to your comments but what pattern am I missing? Go ahead and use the 2 * 4!

I THINK and I could easily be wrong as I'm going only on what I see here and my experience as a wife...but you bludgeoned her and possibly everyone else in your family, with your wants/needs "explanations" that were self serving. I think it was selfish behavior, and you left your w's needs and wants out of the picture for a long time. She had baggage too, and though that is not your fault, ignoring it was an odd but convenient choice to make, don't you think?

Self serving? How so? If by wanting to be trusted and able to share all aspects of my life based on it is selfish then I guess I am. If I had to deal with internal threats to keep the family financially afloat, and my desire to change that is considered selfish, then I guess I am.

Hey, I sked for a 2 * 4 so I'm glad you're sharing with me but really, what could I have done? I listened, I empathised, I comprimised, I tried to explain and show her things, I even let her do whatever worked for her without any demands.

And by the way I never overlooked her "baggage". In fact I just about accomodated it completely by letting it control us. And as far as leaving her wants and needs out of the picture, I have heard her when she says that I missed the small things she wanted. I get that. I'm willing to work on me.

I do want to work on what I can control. I'm afraid that my real problem is that I could not face the truth, that in my desire to have the W and family I always wanted I overlooked so much, which eventually came back to haunt me.

this^^^ is probably true and it will take bravery on your part to address it. But it's the brave ones who succeed here. And it's not for the cowardly to look deep within, where the real journey is...

Look, I'm am looking at myself in this. I just can't see what I can do differently that would have a positive impact? I mean, I can see how my responses didn't work but I can't see what I could have done as an alternative. I see that you made these principals work in your own marriage, that it took years, and I respect that, and what you are saying here.

I feel like if I really took a stand on the things that were tough for me I would have lost my W and family.

Not sure what you are referring to...^^^

I meant that I felt that the issues where not going to have any other outcome than they were having and if I said "no more" to it, our marriage would have ended.

I really let things go that should have been resolved and I did not have it in me to take a stand. In its place I became angry, I became focused on what I thought I could control, I continually verbalized what was tough and all of that contributed to negativity, and her unhappiness.


well those are important insights. Work on doing the opposite of this. 180s...the negativity [censored] out the will of many around it. Like a vortex...watch for that.


We did have a lot of greatness in our family as well. We love our kids to death and they were happy in many ways, we shared so many of the typical family things. My W and I shared a lot of common parts of our lives. There was fun, love and it kept it all going. We just did not have the tools and communication skills to do more than table our difficulties until it reached critical mass.

Get the tools. You'll need them in life no matter what else happens...no one "likes" conflict resolution. But avoiding conflict is more or less guaranteeing more of it...
if she's willing to go to c for THAT ALONE, it'll help (and might get her to discuss other things. But YOU will need to do a lot of "owning up" for a while for her to trust that it won't all be about kicking her to the curb for her "once in a life time run for happiness" fantasy).

Tell your sons to STOP JUDGING THEIR MOTHER...show some respect. They have no idea what she has been through and it's YOUR job to stop them. I'm appalled at what you say they tell you. Why do you have those types of conversations?


My fear is you are whining/blaming and so angry that they want YOU to be quiet and in the past -- that only happened when you got your way, which was usually an angry thing...


You asked whether I have succeeded in a 180 where her issue was that I did not allow her to speak, that I overwhelmed her with her with my force of opinion. I don't think I have until very recently been able to do that because the threat of our marriage ending made me even try harder, in my way.

well that's disquieting, given that your "way" has been pretty darn forceful so ==you bullied her into silence but now you want her to share more? Um, gee, I doubt she's feeling like sharing much now...

But, I think I have finally got it and have been successful of late. I'm now trying to figure out how we can meet somewhere in the middle in communicating, but right now she only wants to be heard when she wants to speak. She has asked that when she talks I just listen and don't talk, but instead take some time with what she has said.

THEN SHUT THE HELL UP. Don't work on getting in the middle of it..Just shut up for once.... yes, that's right. Do NOT tell her how you feel. I'd bet A LOT OF MONEY she knows...b/c that's all she heard for years.

She's being clear with you. Do NOT argue with her or react with Your needs...just listen to her...may be hard for you, but it is NOT complicated...thank her for her clarity and in this one small thing, SHOW HER YOU HEAR HER and are not putting your need to be heard, again, at her expense, again, over her request to be heard. LISTEN TO HER....how can you think arguing NOW would help your cause, given the pattern of the past?

A real 180 here is available. Shut up and listen to her. HEAR what she says as it is valuable info...consider it a "recon" mission....put the transmitter in receive only...No transmissions from you....

Okay I hear you and appreciate the benefit of your experience.
Receive only, got it.

Okay, so I have written a laundry list of what I saw her as doing to harm the marriage. I do see that in my handling of the problems I was very critical, and made her feel lonely.

among other things..also unwanted, unvalued, held in contempt even?? (your first review of the m was almost totally hostile to her, imo)

and years of being critisized take a toll on a woman. Have you read the Five Love Languages? You may find that her love tank is NOT what you thought it was and that's it's close to empty now and has been running on fumes for awhile.

Your way of showing love for her before, and I don't know what it was, clearly wasn't in her love language and that matters.


What I don't understand is how I could have comunicated better with her, without alienating her? If I began approaching each issue with an open heart and mind and that did not stop what was harmful, if I could not talk it through, nor let it go without the problems continuing what could I have done better?

start with listening-NOT fixing or answering or telling her what you feel. Just put your transmitter in "receive only" mode. And as for what you are describing above, are you saying you have done that? Since when? If it's recent, then it's too new for her to feel safe with the changes yet.

I'm saying that I always was this way, and that when nothing changed I would complain about it. I eventually stopped believing things would change becasue they hadn't, so what discussions would begin as an open attempt to communicate would end in frustration.

I used to be so patient. I used to listen for hours and would have done anything to show her her fears were unfounded.

I did not want to end up speaking to her so strongly. Please note that I was not verbally abusive. I

so then what? You raised your voice (yelling tends to make the recipient NOT care at all about content, merely that they are being verbally bullied and yes, abused...yelling IS not okay) OR were you just relentlessly arguing til you got your way or what? Your earlier descriptions of your communications don't sound like calm level headed give and take sessions...

did not call her names. I was however, desperate to solve the issues because if I didn't they were killing me, and killing our family's chance of survival. What can I do better?

What are you talking about and when? This^^ descriptions does NOT jive with your other self described ways of communicating, and getting your way with your "logical" arguments and purusing them until it went your way.. but for now she asked you to LISTEN to her and process and ponder for much longer before responding and

even then I'm not sure you ought to say much. Your words don't mean a lot right now and mostly can only hurt your cause unless they are words of peace and affirmation.

You ask me why I say I'm as sad as humanly possible. How that cannot be self evident to you?

I asked IF you were making the changes and SHOWING how sad you were at the same time. That's what I said...b/c then the martyr routine won't help and it only makes it seem like the "Changes" are tactics used to get her back or achieve your strategic goal, and not to become the man you hope to become, ie. your best self....


There isn't one bit of love or affection from her, there's the EA, there's her walking away in almost every manner. There's my sons being abandoned too. There's such a feeling of the death of a M and family.

How appealing to her....You are supposed to be modelling a PMA and GAL...but I'm guessing you are not and it's Not all her fault. Do you see how that is something YOU can and ought to change? Don't project your pain onto everyone else there.

Remember the DB rules about behavior now?

Be upbeat, pleasant, looking forward to what life is offering you. You have healthy sons. Enjoy them. You have had "an awakening", etc.

Did you really "get" what the Div Busting books said about how YOUR attitude needs to be attractive and attractING?

You are (supposed to be) modelling for your son's the fact that YOU and ONLY YOU are in charge of your happiness- just as they are for theirs ....show them that. Detach from your w's actions and do some fun things with or without her.

Besides, who wants to be with a man who is so "Sad as humanly possible'?

Sorry but your neediness is going to be a huge turn off just as you need to show the oppposite. Be a man only a fool would leave

and show the opposites of the negative images she has of you.


I'm here willing to do my part to improve and asking for anyone with insight to pls tell me what they think I could be better at. It might be said to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, but that is so tough to do.

don't ask your w for feedback of any kind right now. Live your life as well as you can. Make it a good one. Give her something to miss, or think about...by having a fun loving life and be as loving with your boys as possible.

IF your w died, you would not shrivel up in the fetal position and never laugh again. So don't do that now.

Imagine your w has "gone for good" and time has passed and you are happy...what does that look like? Envision it. Now try to create some of that NOW in your life...


Okay, so am working on myself and GAL. I am taking all of your advise to heart and putting into practice. I have always been taking care of my sons, showing my committment to the M, and doing my best to leave the path back to the family open. It's tough though.

this is nice stuff but what GAL are you doing? Be specific...I joined 2-3 clubs, AND a writer's group, I auditioned for shows, I worked out, I volunteered at a woman's shelter, I was in a ski club, I took a class, so, THAT is what I mean when I say "GAL"...meet new people, do things I had put off, etc. Had some fun, helped others and myself, etc.

I do yoga, I jog, hike, hang out with my sons, read, go to movies, etc.

How do you do this when the WAS is having an emotional affair from within our house?

YOU GAL AND GET OUT OF THE HOUSE...see above.. A little mystery would not hurt either. She does not need to know YOUR whereabouts at all times...

I do not confront about it, and when my sons complain to me about it I explain to them that this is only a symptom and there is a much bigger picture their Mom is dealing with right now, and to be there for her when she needs us.

how do they know this EA stuff??? Why are they complaining to YOU?

They were the ones to discover the affair, long story. They tried to speak to their Mom but she has removed herself from their lives. She was lying to them about it and because I was unaware of the affair they felt they had to tell me.


BTW I did read Five Love Languages. And I do see that I did not show love to my W in the way she needed (the small gifts as signs of love).

I'm betting there is at least one more LL she had (we usually have more than one) and were there opposites That you did? I mean, if she did value gifts, are you the type that ignored birthdays?

I find a lot of women like gifts on special days like that, but they have another LL too....quality time, touching of affection not always leading to sex, acts of service, etc. Think about it...she sure likes being heard...

But I'm Glad you read it.

I really do appreciate your feedback. Thank you.

[rickb89]

25yearsmlc - thank you so much for your reply, wisdom and experience. I did make a number of responses in #2196364 in blue font. Please understand that I need to read your responses over and over. It's so insightful that I need the time to work on it all. I was responding to your posts by paragraph but in the end I was so exhausted emotionally I just need to let this all percolate into me. Many of my responses to you were with further questions and some of your points angered me and I just need to sit with this all and mull it over. I really do appreciate the 2*4. I want to break through this cloud and get on the correct path.

[rickb89]

25yearsmlc - random thoughts:

- I agree I must have made my W feel so worthless with my complaints. I've got to figure out a better way to handle it when I am feeling at the end of my rope. I should have pointed out all the good I see in her before I got into discussing what was hard. I shouldn't have allowed myself, no matter how bad it was, to get to the point where I only could show my exasperation. No matter what I was receiving I should have been able to rise above a lower form of communication. Ironically,I got to the point where I would verbalize my disatisfaction because I felt so worthless to her (and ending up making her feel worthless). At least that's how I perceived her actions, that I could not have been worth enough to her for change.

- But YOU will need to do a lot of "owning up" for a while for her to trust that it won't all be about kicking her to the curb for her "once in a life time run for happiness" fantasy). This is your comment. What do you mean by "a once in a lifetime run for happiness fantasy"?

- my sons involvement in the EA, and poss PA. Two out of three of them found evidence of it and they were not looking. This smoking gun evidence was something they wished they never had to deal with but it happened. They agonized for quite some time about sharing it with me but in the end decided to. Mostly it was because their Mom tried to lie her way out of it when they spoke to her. They saw that going on, and saw me living as Mr Mom and felt I should know that I was being played. Their involvement only made things harder for the M, but I didn't even know about it. Remember the OM is my cousin. I thought his involvement in her life was an attempt to offer a helping hand to both of us. I was shocked to find out otherwise. Ironically after years of not being trusted she was the one who cheated. My sons have always come to me for everything. My handling of this has been a mixed bag of being sensitive to their plight in this, and times when I should have not been so open. BTW, two of them are in their 20's so they're not kids. In the end I agree that both of us, H & W have not handled that aspect in the best fashion.

- you have pointed out how I would argue points until I get my way. I wish! I never got "my way". I understand that it takes two to get to where we are, so I agree that I could have handled my end differently.

- I agree that I have been playing the role of the martyr at an Oscar winning level. What I don't get is that whenever I do anything to GAL she gets upset and says that our separation is no problem because she can see that I can GAL without her. That frustrates me because if I did not GAL it would be unattractive, and because I have it justifies to her that we will be fine on our own. Also, even in the midst of her affair, she still has to accuse me of OW when I am not doing anything like that. I never have strayed from her since I have known her. You're a woman. Explain it to me!

[rickb89]

25yearsmlc - random thoughts:

- I agree I must have made my W feel so worthless with my complaints. I've got to figure out a better way to handle it when I am feeling at the end of my rope. I should have pointed out all the good I see in her before I got into discussing what was hard. I shouldn't have allowed myself, no matter how bad it was, to get to the point where I only could show my exasperation. No matter what I was receiving I should have been able to rise above a lower form of communication. Ironically,I got to the point where I would verbalize my disatisfaction because I felt so worthless to her (and ending up making her feel worthless). At least that's how I perceived her actions, that I could not have been worth enough to her for change.

- But YOU will need to do a lot of "owning up" for a while for her to trust that it won't all be about kicking her to the curb for her "once in a life time run for happiness" fantasy). This is your comment. What do you mean by "a once in a lifetime run for happiness fantasy"?

- my sons involvement in the EA, and poss PA. Two out of three of them found evidence of it and they were not looking. This smoking gun evidence was something they wished they never had to deal with but it happened. They agonized for quite some time about sharing it with me but in the end decided to. Mostly it was because their Mom tried to lie her way out of it when they spoke to her. They saw that going on, and saw me living as Mr Mom and felt I should know that I was being played. Their involvement only made things harder for the M, but I didn't even know about it. Remember the OM is my cousin. I thought his involvement in her life was an attempt to offer a helping hand to both of us. I was shocked to find out otherwise. Ironically after years of not being trusted she was the one who cheated. My sons have always come to me for everything. My handling of this has been a mixed bag of being sensitive to their plight in this, and times when I should have not been so open. BTW, two of them are in their 20's so they're not kids. In the end I agree that both of us, H & W have not handled that aspect in the best fashion.

- you have pointed out how I would argue points until I get my way. I wish! I never got "my way". I understand that it takes two to get to where we are, so I agree that I could have handled my end differently.

- I agree that I have been playing the role of the martyr at an Oscar winning level. What I don't get is that whenever I do anything to GAL she gets upset and says that our separation is no problem because she can see that I can GAL without her. That frustrates me because if I did not GAL it would be unattractive, and because I have it justifies to her that we will be fine on our own. Also, even in the midst of her affair, she still has to accuse me of OW when I am not doing anything like that. I never have strayed from her since I have known her. You're a woman. Explain it to me!