25yearmlc - thank you for your response and kindness. I will do my best to answer your questions.
I could have listened to her better over the years, I really did not respect or trust many of her decisions and so I would really hard sell my opinion of what is right to do or not do. Given that she was so fragile
this^^^ is a BIG DEAL...it doesn't matter that she was "fragile" (Why even mention that?) To me is tounds like you were bullying her or bludgeoning til you got your way.
Naturally, to YOU, your solutions were "Logical" but that's not how it must have felt to her...and btw, there are often more than one answer to a problem and logic can exist on both sides of a problem or issue.
Okay thanks for your feedback and yes your points make sense. Yes, there are more than one solution to a problem and logic can exist on both sides of a problem or issue. What if you're not offered any solutions? What if we were being destroyed by the staus quo yet no alternatives were being considered. Let me be more specific with examples and get your input. One example is trust. She could not give it, ever, and I never gave her any reason to mistrust me. Yes, she married me and had kids with me but the mistrust was always there and was so destructive. Everything and anything that involved a female was suspect and I was treated as such. On the other hand she could be friends with anyone she wanted, and even was obviously flirtateous. There was a destructive double standard in our lives. She had things happen in her childhood that could have been the root cause of this. Okay, so I tried being loving, patient, logical, discussing it, tried suggesting therapy, anything and everything I could think of. I was pushed and pushed and still kept calm and tried my best to see it work out. I know that she definitely felt judged by this. What could I have done differently? I listened to her telling me she didn't know why she was like this and to her credit would try and make up for it, but how does anyone keep getting slammed by this for years? How is my reaction to this bullying and bludgeoning til I got My Way? My Way never existed, nor apparently her way. I know my frustration with this caused her unhappiness, but what could I have done? So, if I tried to work it out, and it was brutal, then my frustration is considered to whining, bullying? I could have given an ultimatum I guess but I believe that there has to be a way that resolves this for people.
Yes, I know I have to work on myself (the first hundred steps of change). Asking you these questions is my attempt to find a way out of this mental entanglement. I do see that I judged her negatively here, but I do feel I was so trapped by not being able to find a means for us to get over this that I was unhappy and stopped sharing areas of my life that I should have been able to share with her safely. She kept twisting everything into a scenario for mistrust.
What about our finances? She refused to be part of it, face it or work with me on it. To her credit she did work and would pool what she earned with me. That was where it stopped though. She would not face any of the big decisions with me on these things and would just make her own choices that would inevitably put us in a world of trouble. I tried everything I could think of to work with her on it, showing her how it all works, talking to her, writing things down so she could see how they worked, having her get her own account, etc. In the end she would always spend beyond what we had, etc. I worked around the clock to make ends meet, all along. I took care of all the finances myself and it was enormous pressure. In the end she would focus on what made her happy - the kids, things she likes, etc.; which is great but this enormous responsibility does not go away and I really had an ongoing problem with it. Ironically, she is unhappy that I spent so much time in the office working at it.
I'm not cheap, I'm was never unable to be with her and my family and enjoy things, however I did have to work harder and longer to stay afloat in this. And no, my childhood fear of poverty did not warp me in that I was seeing threats that weren't really there. It was all too real and I worked my butt off to deal with it, and tried to work with her to find some sort of solution that would not ruin our finances.
Yes, she saw my unhappiness with this and yes felt judged. How could I have handled this differently?
(now I see how much she was suffering emotionally in so many parts of her life)I wish I could have found a better way to get us to be at a place where we could have made better decisons as H&W.
like partners of equal worth...which she was not in your eyes, based on other comments You have made. You just finished saying you did not respect her opinions...so I'd start with THAT as a way of changing how you interact.
People know full well if someone disrespects them and only give lip service to the concept of "building consensus". IOW she knew you'd get your way b/c you did not respect her way, and you knew it too. You wanted her to be happy enough to stay, but not at the expense of you not getting your way.
As far as getting my way, that never happened. I wanted the respect to be trusted to share my entire life with her and not be shackled by a double standard. I wanted to make sure our family was financially sound in the short and long term. You're right I did want my way in that. That's what I believe should happen in a marriage and family. How could I build consensus by myself? I know this stuff sucked for both of us. Please, and I am desperate in this. What could have/can I do to work with her on these things? I have always been so willing to comprimise but what was happening was so in the extreme and threatening. I feel like you're not seeing how difficult these issues were and when I showed my frustration I was also responsible for pushing her away.
DO you see how that happened? It does not make you the worst guy in the world- but it's common- and rarely addressed until it's too late.
Please share with me how I can handle conflict resolution differently? If you're partner is not going to stop or change, and all my manners of trying to work with it are not working, then what to do? I would always end up at the same point (and by then she had experienced my frustration). Walk away? Just let things go on destructively? Lose my home and have the kids suffer it? Allow a double standard to go on forever? How do you do you do it right when you have tried to be empathetic, tried calm conversations, willingness to comprimise, etc?
You are hearing me at the tail end of this, at the point of living with a WAW. I get the impression that you think I was some sort of tyrant. I was anything but that. I was as gentle as could humanly be in this, and yes there was anger and frustration. I don't know what I can do differently.
She's still in the house so it's not too late...
Whatever we could not resolve we both internalized for years. I wish I could have understood her better, that I somehow could have got past my own pain and perceptions to get to a place where we could have actually communicated. I wish I had understood her needs better. That all she really needed was the small things from me to be happy. While I fought to support the family, while I took on the world I missed in many cases opportunities to give her the little gifts that mean so much to her.
I realize that I have presented a laundry list of her past problems and that I did not mention any of her good qualities. I mentioned only the problems because I wanted to present the background for what bacame issues throughout our marriage, and what lead to todays WAW. I realize that I brought baggage.
I brought an overwhelming urge to beat the world, to survive and provide for my family because of my familes divorce and subsequent poverty.
not sure what this^^^ means. The terms sound angry though.
I am just saying that I had a tough background and was motivated to make sure I was a good provider, father, husband, etc. I channelled this into areas where I could improve my life and family's life. I worked very hard, am honest, got my college degree, gave my time as a martial arts instructer and coach, worked on social economic issues so that I could have a hand in bettering the world so that people may not have to suffer as I did. Yes, my wife has her altruistic ways too and she has a great heart so I'm not saying I am a saint and she's not. I am however saying that I was not blinded by my past to an extent that I could not see some solutions to adult problems.
I said earlier that I wish I had been able to just listen to her better. You know I actually started out that way but as the problems lasted and the pain grew I really could not hear her explanations any longer. I lost faith in anything changing. I really felt I had the answers to things but I see that they weren't the answers for her. What could I have done differently once I was at the end of my rope? I would try and try to talk these things through but once I got on a roll she would shut down.
My fear from childhood that anyone could make a choice that could doom your family unit and survival and you could have no say in it whatsoever, made it very tough for me to deal with my W's issues. I did feel powerless against it as you have pointed out.
But much of your own behavior brought this very thing about. You sound extremely controlling and "right" and that need to control cut her out. Which is how she ended up feeling as she has.
I'm not saying it's "ALL" your fault but do you see how the fears of losing control often lead us to be too controlling - and then we bring about the very thing we most fear? This happens a lot.
That's odd because I feel I have no control whatsover over anything. I'm not sure what I could have done differently? If I let it all go the way it was, we were doomed financially. If I let the issue of mistrust go unacknowledged then I was allowing a destructive force to rule our marriage. Yes, I saw these as challenges and chose to meet them head on, but in the end my way did not work with her way. How could I have saved us without making her feel the way she does? I really don't understand. I married my W because she has one of the most beautiful souls I have ever known, a heart and a giving nature that I saw as extraordinary. Also, we had the same desires for family, and a love for the world in much the same way.
Yeah, I saw the issues between us right fron the start
what were they? How did you work on solving them or moving towards each other where there were gaps?
The one thing I can see is that when we spoke about issues, the clearly stated goal to find a solution was not how the discussions happened. I used to say to her all the time that she would start each conversation out by being visibly upset and then tell me how I or something about us made her unhappy. I would usually feel very unjustly acused and would really press my case that what she was perceiving in me was not the case. She admits she would get overwhelmed and close down, which only made me try harder. The fact that we had issues that I felt we could not resolve based on our history only made me more fearful that this would be another feeling she would have and act on and that anything I said or did would really have no affect on her opinion.
but I felt that love would get us over each issue. I thought that logic alone would tell her that something destructive would make no sense to continue, so the the only outcome would be to change it for the better. It had to happen because we would want to be happy, and have a successful loving family.
Let me try a possible translation of the above, "my opinion is logical and therefore MY opinion is "right" (happy does not matter) and therefore what I want is, conveniently enough, what we should always do and follow...strangely, this did NOT please HER but alas, SHE is not logical....she is wrong..
Rick-if SHE thought the happy family solution was so obvious, she would have chosen it. Isn't it odd that you assume YOUR choices are best for all, over the years, and always were, and yet she was miserable? Even you admit she has been unhappy a long time...your logic assessments overlooked her misery. Does not sound so logical to me.
25yearsmlc - I am trying to as open as I can to your comments but what pattern am I missing? Go ahead and use the 2 * 4!
I THINK and I could easily be wrong as I'm going only on what I see here and my experience as a wife...but you bludgeoned her and possibly everyone else in your family, with your wants/needs "explanations" that were self serving. I think it was selfish behavior, and you left your w's needs and wants out of the picture for a long time. She had baggage too, and though that is not your fault, ignoring it was an odd but convenient choice to make, don't you think?
Self serving? How so? If by wanting to be trusted and able to share all aspects of my life based on it is selfish then I guess I am. If I had to deal with internal threats to keep the family financially afloat, and my desire to change that is considered selfish, then I guess I am.
Hey, I sked for a 2 * 4 so I'm glad you're sharing with me but really, what could I have done? I listened, I empathised, I comprimised, I tried to explain and show her things, I even let her do whatever worked for her without any demands.
And by the way I never overlooked her "baggage". In fact I just about accomodated it completely by letting it control us. And as far as leaving her wants and needs out of the picture, I have heard her when she says that I missed the small things she wanted. I get that. I'm willing to work on me.
I do want to work on what I can control. I'm afraid that my real problem is that I could not face the truth, that in my desire to have the W and family I always wanted I overlooked so much, which eventually came back to haunt me.
this^^^ is probably true and it will take bravery on your part to address it. But it's the brave ones who succeed here. And it's not for the cowardly to look deep within, where the real journey is...
Look, I'm am looking at myself in this. I just can't see what I can do differently that would have a positive impact? I mean, I can see how my responses didn't work but I can't see what I could have done as an alternative. I see that you made these principals work in your own marriage, that it took years, and I respect that, and what you are saying here.
I feel like if I really took a stand on the things that were tough for me I would have lost my W and family.
Not sure what you are referring to...^^^
I meant that I felt that the issues where not going to have any other outcome than they were having and if I said "no more" to it, our marriage would have ended.
I really let things go that should have been resolved and I did not have it in me to take a stand. In its place I became angry, I became focused on what I thought I could control, I continually verbalized what was tough and all of that contributed to negativity, and her unhappiness.
well those are important insights. Work on doing the opposite of this. 180s...the negativity [censored] out the will of many around it. Like a vortex...watch for that.
We did have a lot of greatness in our family as well. We love our kids to death and they were happy in many ways, we shared so many of the typical family things. My W and I shared a lot of common parts of our lives. There was fun, love and it kept it all going. We just did not have the tools and communication skills to do more than table our difficulties until it reached critical mass.
Get the tools. You'll need them in life no matter what else happens...no one "likes" conflict resolution. But avoiding conflict is more or less guaranteeing more of it... if she's willing to go to c for THAT ALONE, it'll help (and might get her to discuss other things. But YOU will need to do a lot of "owning up" for a while for her to trust that it won't all be about kicking her to the curb for her "once in a life time run for happiness" fantasy).
Tell your sons to STOP JUDGING THEIR MOTHER...show some respect. They have no idea what she has been through and it's YOUR job to stop them. I'm appalled at what you say they tell you. Why do you have those types of conversations?
My fear is you are whining/blaming and so angry that they want YOU to be quiet and in the past -- that only happened when you got your way, which was usually an angry thing...
You asked whether I have succeeded in a 180 where her issue was that I did not allow her to speak, that I overwhelmed her with her with my force of opinion. I don't think I have until very recently been able to do that because the threat of our marriage ending made me even try harder, in my way.
well that's disquieting, given that your "way" has been pretty darn forceful so ==you bullied her into silence but now you want her to share more? Um, gee, I doubt she's feeling like sharing much now...
But, I think I have finally got it and have been successful of late. I'm now trying to figure out how we can meet somewhere in the middle in communicating, but right now she only wants to be heard when she wants to speak. She has asked that when she talks I just listen and don't talk, but instead take some time with what she has said.
THEN SHUT THE HELL UP. Don't work on getting in the middle of it..Just shut up for once.... yes, that's right. Do NOT tell her how you feel. I'd bet A LOT OF MONEY she knows...b/c that's all she heard for years.
She's being clear with you. Do NOT argue with her or react with Your needs...just listen to her...may be hard for you, but it is NOT complicated...thank her for her clarity and in this one small thing, SHOW HER YOU HEAR HER and are not putting your need to be heard, again, at her expense, again, over her request to be heard. LISTEN TO HER....how can you think arguing NOW would help your cause, given the pattern of the past?
A real 180 here is available. Shut up and listen to her. HEAR what she says as it is valuable info...consider it a "recon" mission....put the transmitter in receive only...No transmissions from you....
Okay I hear you and appreciate the benefit of your experience. Receive only, got it.
Okay, so I have written a laundry list of what I saw her as doing to harm the marriage. I do see that in my handling of the problems I was very critical, and made her feel lonely.
among other things..also unwanted, unvalued, held in contempt even?? (your first review of the m was almost totally hostile to her, imo)
and years of being critisized take a toll on a woman. Have you read the Five Love Languages? You may find that her love tank is NOT what you thought it was and that's it's close to empty now and has been running on fumes for awhile.
Your way of showing love for her before, and I don't know what it was, clearly wasn't in her love language and that matters.
What I don't understand is how I could have comunicated better with her, without alienating her? If I began approaching each issue with an open heart and mind and that did not stop what was harmful, if I could not talk it through, nor let it go without the problems continuing what could I have done better?
start with listening-NOT fixing or answering or telling her what you feel. Just put your transmitter in "receive only" mode. And as for what you are describing above, are you saying you have done that? Since when? If it's recent, then it's too new for her to feel safe with the changes yet.
I'm saying that I always was this way, and that when nothing changed I would complain about it. I eventually stopped believing things would change becasue they hadn't, so what discussions would begin as an open attempt to communicate would end in frustration.
I used to be so patient. I used to listen for hours and would have done anything to show her her fears were unfounded.
I did not want to end up speaking to her so strongly. Please note that I was not verbally abusive. I
so then what? You raised your voice (yelling tends to make the recipient NOT care at all about content, merely that they are being verbally bullied and yes, abused...yelling IS not okay) OR were you just relentlessly arguing til you got your way or what? Your earlier descriptions of your communications don't sound like calm level headed give and take sessions...
did not call her names. I was however, desperate to solve the issues because if I didn't they were killing me, and killing our family's chance of survival. What can I do better?
What are you talking about and when? This^^ descriptions does NOT jive with your other self described ways of communicating, and getting your way with your "logical" arguments and purusing them until it went your way.. but for now she asked you to LISTEN to her and process and ponder for much longer before responding and
even then I'm not sure you ought to say much. Your words don't mean a lot right now and mostly can only hurt your cause unless they are words of peace and affirmation.
You ask me why I say I'm as sad as humanly possible. How that cannot be self evident to you?
I asked IF you were making the changes and SHOWING how sad you were at the same time. That's what I said...b/c then the martyr routine won't help and it only makes it seem like the "Changes" are tactics used to get her back or achieve your strategic goal, and not to become the man you hope to become, ie. your best self....
There isn't one bit of love or affection from her, there's the EA, there's her walking away in almost every manner. There's my sons being abandoned too. There's such a feeling of the death of a M and family.
How appealing to her....You are supposed to be modelling a PMA and GAL...but I'm guessing you are not and it's Not all her fault. Do you see how that is something YOU can and ought to change? Don't project your pain onto everyone else there.
Remember the DB rules about behavior now?
Be upbeat, pleasant, looking forward to what life is offering you. You have healthy sons. Enjoy them. You have had "an awakening", etc.
Did you really "get" what the Div Busting books said about how YOUR attitude needs to be attractive and attractING?
You are (supposed to be) modelling for your son's the fact that YOU and ONLY YOU are in charge of your happiness- just as they are for theirs ....show them that. Detach from your w's actions and do some fun things with or without her.
Besides, who wants to be with a man who is so "Sad as humanly possible'?
Sorry but your neediness is going to be a huge turn off just as you need to show the oppposite. Be a man only a fool would leave
and show the opposites of the negative images she has of you.
I'm here willing to do my part to improve and asking for anyone with insight to pls tell me what they think I could be better at. It might be said to believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, but that is so tough to do.
don't ask your w for feedback of any kind right now. Live your life as well as you can. Make it a good one. Give her something to miss, or think about...by having a fun loving life and be as loving with your boys as possible.
IF your w died, you would not shrivel up in the fetal position and never laugh again. So don't do that now.
Imagine your w has "gone for good" and time has passed and you are happy...what does that look like? Envision it. Now try to create some of that NOW in your life...
Okay, so am working on myself and GAL. I am taking all of your advise to heart and putting into practice. I have always been taking care of my sons, showing my committment to the M, and doing my best to leave the path back to the family open. It's tough though.
this is nice stuff but what GAL are you doing? Be specific...I joined 2-3 clubs, AND a writer's group, I auditioned for shows, I worked out, I volunteered at a woman's shelter, I was in a ski club, I took a class, so, THAT is what I mean when I say "GAL"...meet new people, do things I had put off, etc. Had some fun, helped others and myself, etc.
I do yoga, I jog, hike, hang out with my sons, read, go to movies, etc.
How do you do this when the WAS is having an emotional affair from within our house?
YOU GAL AND GET OUT OF THE HOUSE...see above.. A little mystery would not hurt either. She does not need to know YOUR whereabouts at all times...
I do not confront about it, and when my sons complain to me about it I explain to them that this is only a symptom and there is a much bigger picture their Mom is dealing with right now, and to be there for her when she needs us.
how do they know this EA stuff??? Why are they complaining to YOU?
They were the ones to discover the affair, long story. They tried to speak to their Mom but she has removed herself from their lives. She was lying to them about it and because I was unaware of the affair they felt they had to tell me.
BTW I did read Five Love Languages. And I do see that I did not show love to my W in the way she needed (the small gifts as signs of love).
I'm betting there is at least one more LL she had (we usually have more than one) and were there opposites That you did? I mean, if she did value gifts, are you the type that ignored birthdays?
I find a lot of women like gifts on special days like that, but they have another LL too....quality time, touching of affection not always leading to sex, acts of service, etc. Think about it...she sure likes being heard...
