Living in the trenches....Thread #5

[workinghardguy]

Hey Navy... I think you did ok... you set some boundaries and got some info. I may not have thrown in the last apology and getting into the "weeds" of who did what probably didn't help, but you stood your ground.

W and I did the same dance a few weeks back. I was tired of being treated like crap so I told her to stop. It ended up sounding a lot like your convo. Validation, apologies, listening, and so on. Since then things have been much more positive in our house. She doesn't feel that I'm trying to restore our M, or at least expecting her to restore our M, so she doesn't feel the need to be toxic and mean.

Oddly enough since having a little detachment epiphany this morning I found myself being much less nice to her. Not mean, just not overly nice. Positive with the kids and such, but just disinterested in her and her life. Guess we'll see where that goes.

[Redo]

Hey Navy:

Just checking on you. Feel free to let me know if i am crossing any lines here...

The convo you had with your wife is eerily similar to some convo's i had with my wife.

But i think you did pretty good. It was a calm rational talk and the second time at-least you did not take the bait for bringing up the past.

I think once our fragile egos are hurt, it is very hard to overcome the hurt and try to work on the R. I think your wife is facing a similar issue. She's feeling this big hurt that she's been wronged for 7 years. It will not matter at all if you try to explain out anything there. She cannot seem to forgive that 7 year issue. But still, she is sticking around...

I dunno. Maybe you can try to steer this around all by yourself. Be assertive, in control. Tell her you'd like to take her out to dinner a friend. Not a husband. See how she responds. If she responds positively then you can try to connect with her deeper through the 'friend' angle. Then she might slowly overcome her ego.

Good luck!

[workinghardguy]

I'll toss in that the seven years is a smokescreen as well. It hasn't been seven years of pain and misery. That is simply the villifying that the WAS does in order to justify their actions to themselves.

This morning, in a message from a friend, he was saying my W said she has just been too miserable the past 8 years to go on any further. Ummm... we've only been married 5 and dated 2. So apparently she was miserable before we met!

[Navyguy]

If she responds positively then you can try to connect with her deeper through the 'friend' angle. Then she might slowly overcome her ego.

Good luck!

That's what I thought was happening...I was just being her friend. Then we ML and I thought we were well on our way back to be a marriage...then things went back downhill. I guess it's back to the friend angle...do what works, right?

[alamo76]

Rooting and praying for you, navy!

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. You have, at least, something (and someone) to work on your marriage.

[greenblue90]

Navy
Don't worry about the conflict. Your wife has some serious growing up to do. If I remember right she has been like this for 10 months right?! When will she stop punishing you? Is this a dynamic you want for life?

I understand that to some posters just having your W is enough, but IMHO despite not having physically walked away she has mentally walked away, and she hasn't come back.

So just like you go dark when your WAW physically runs away you will need to do a mental going dark. She was nice to you the next morning probably because she felt bad for needlessly harassing you, but until she decides to mentally come back, it's only a matter of time until she becomes moody again.

A little conflict is ok now. She is pushing you around because she knows she can. She is acting like a brat because she refuses to forgive you, yet refuses to take the responsibility for a divorce. Don't be mean, but if SHE starts it, call her out. Also don't be afraid to tell her the following.

"if you are so miserable, and can't forgive me, well it might be better if you go."

Or

"if it's so bad that you must go, I'll understand"

Notice how she always says she can't forgive you because you keep pushing it? This is pure avoidance. She can choose to forgive but she is "stuck" on being right, and you being wrong. As we both know this mentality is very detrimental to a marriage.

This may sound harsh but she needs to be brought to the point where she realizes that forgiveness is better than losing the things she cherishes. This could mean you.

This is where you need to stand up and say

"you can be mad at me for the rest of your life, but I won't be around to take your wrath."

You've done your part Navy and she knows it, now she needs to decide if her foolish pride is worth throwing it all away.

You don't have to drop a bomb at her, if anything she'll bail to spite you. Instead slowly turn up the heat, she'll notice. You started by demanding respect, now follow through.

[25yearsmlc]

good grief Navy, enough already.

At worst, You were a flawed, somewhat clueless selfish h for awhile...(and I guess SHE was perfect all through those years...but of course)

and so now, forever, she will hold onto this no matter what you do??

Screw that...she's sick and miserable and is pissed at you for not constantly reminding yourself that you once were imperfect and hurt your w's feelings?

Who wants to live like that? WHO CAN??

All I know is that as of now, she's miserable and selfish and unkind to you and denies you what wives are exclusively able to provide.

and you're getting close to being a doormat Navy.

I'm sorry but that's how I see it.

Instead of fearing her wrath or her reaction, tell her YOUR NEEDS ARE NOT BEING MET, BY A LONG SHOT...

and if that matters to her, she needs to do some work of her own.

If it does not, then imo, I say --

Let her go discover how great it all is out there without all that "abuse and pressure" from a smart, kind good looking man who is devoted to her and the kids....

Let HER clean the house and LET HER pay the bills and let HER do the shopping and car maintenance and yard work AND child care and go to class and find supportive friends without you...

and let you move on in your life and find a woman who can say "Thank you" and not cringe when you touch her...

Navy, if you want to stick around solely to be a dad to your kids more fully

then so be it. I'll stand by your choice. I am not suggesting you "teach her a lesson" or punish her...but there is a difference between that and enabling someone to mistreat you and call it something else.

I think it's sad that your kids won't know what a m could/should look like...I cannot imagine them seeing this m as it is now, being good for them in the long run.

I'll support any choice you make at this point. But I do not see what you are doing as working, I'm sorry to say. ML once in a year isn't progress when she seems to hold that against you too...

imo-
She's biding her time w/school, and is totally unaware of how self absorbed she is.

If she were on her own, she'd learn fast that having NO ONE else cleaning up or cooking OR paying the bills, might make you look a lot more attractive.

and yes OTHER WOMEN would see your value, and for the life of me I can't help but think that's the only way she'll wake up to reality.

sorry buddy...but this has gone on too long imo. It's cementing her victimhood, like she really thinks EVEN NOW that she ought to be angry at you? It's sickening to me...it's the least forgiving description of someone, for less actual "wrong", than anything I've read here...

She thinks you have wronged her in some serious way and you enable that mistaken belief. Who is she kidding?

What about NOW?? Today, Who is abusing whom?

She has no idea what reality is here.... she's clueless to that. I fear you're not making headway putting up with ANY and ALL of her whims this way. She keeps getting away with mistreating you and you keep asking her if she's mad at you...who cares?

let her be! No more chasing her out with the nicotine shots...let her wallow in her own misery. Stop owning it. It's NOT your fault and its not your responsibility. Isn't it obvious you cannot "fix" it? (And She resents your efforts at doing so.)

that's my .02

ps

growing up we had an Army Colonel as a neighbor, whom we all liked/admired. He had been a POW for 5 years...he was funny and humble and engaging..

He had also had an affair at some point after the POW but before we met him...how do I know? The whole neighborhood knew b/c somehow his w would let it slip out. And she's make snide remarks around him, little snarky comments that would undermine him.

If we asked about his POW issues, he'd begin to talk but she'd interrupt or change the topic. At first I thought she was protecting him but she wasn't.

All of her 4 d's have weird r's with men...or are divorced or never married.

Her son lives FAR away (the dad died).

I recall thinking to myself "I don't know what happened years ago, but as of TODAY, SHE is the bad guy.."

No one liked her, we all liked him.

She made him pay every day for something done with years earlier, and ALL Her kids knew details they did NOT need to know...

I knew her choice was the worst of choices; I learned to either leave or stay and forgive. But staying and NOT forgiving, was hell for all concerned. You really are not doing your kids the favor you think you are doing, by enabling this...

In your sitch, you have no big crime to pay for. Yet it's as if you do. You enable her delusion and her victimhood, and that helps no one.

So if the scraps she throws your way are enough, Okay stay.

OR if the idea that you are a father only is enough, then stay.

OR If you see things we don't, like hope and change in her POV, then stay.

But if you are asking me if I see hope and change in her and whether your efforts are paying off...then I say no, not enough...do something different...or keep getting what you are getting.

[workinghardguy]

Hey Navy... if you haven't already, re-read 25's comments. They're gold. My W and your W sound eerily similar, though mine isn't as far down the cold/mean path as yours.

I had to process a lot when my sitch blew up. And yes, I could've and should've been a better husband. I did one thing a few years ago that hurt my W greatly. Her friends and I were out at a bar. I was drunk and her friends offered me a joint. I had never smoked marijuana in my life, so at my W's encouragement I did.

Well... MJ, alcohol, and I are not friends. I lost my mind and ended up propositioning my W's friend for sex. We didn't actually have sex or even come close. I then cried the rest of the night. Unfortunately all of that comes from stories from others, I don't remember 90% of it.

To this day she holds that deeply against me. When my sitch blew up I beat myself up for that daily. But I've come to realize that, really? I'm not all that bad. Yes, I have issues and I want to improve myself. But compared to what's out there? C'mon, let's be realistic.

And I've come to the realization that I'm too good to be second-fiddle for my W. If we split she's going to be a twice-divorced, 32-year old, single mother of three kids (5, 9, and 11) with one income and a four-bedroom house, and a tech college degree (granted it's nursing). She'll have one great XH (me) and one POS XH (father to SS11 & SD9). Hey... good luck with that! I can already see the guys lining up around the block to grab that baggage. And if she thinks life will be even barely manageable like that she's welcome to drive that car around for a while, especially since she'll make just a hair too much to qualify for any type of support.

So if the scraps she throws your way are enough, Okay stay.

OR if the idea that you are a father only is enough, then stay.

OR If you see things we don't, like hope and change in her POV, then stay.

And the above quote you really need to meditate on Navy... when my sitch started I was in the first sentence. Just stay with me W and I'll take the scraps.

Then I moved to sentence 2 where I wasn't willing to take the scraps, but if she could just let me stay the dad (b/c I LOVE being a dad!) I could do this.

But in the last few weeks, especially since getting to a point of, what I feel, is good detachment I'm in sentence three. I am in this to see a change in her POV. I see little changes. But if there won't be change down the road, and I mean real change, then I will end our M even if she comes back.

Stop owning her hurt and her feelings. They're her feelings. Be your own man, define your own needs, get those needs met, and stand up for yourself in doing it.

[Redo]

Navy, I second everything what 25 said. I think 25 put it best.

If your status quo continues, your wife might just ending resenting her situation even more. Her victimhood becomes so great that everything else you will not matter anymore. I know this because I went through this 2 years ago. Rather than dying a bit inside everyday and walking on eggshells, it is better if you take a stand. I know it is rocking the boat, but the way i see it, the boat is filling up with water fast...

[Navyguy]

Wow 25...you've given me a lot to think about. Some of what you said has gone through my mind at times.

I agree, I am becoming a doormat...no need to apologize for saying that.

I guess I am at the point where I need to take a big step back and assess my situation...when W came back in March, I said I'd do that in October, which has now come and gone.

Patience can only take you so far. Based on what W says, she hasn't even moved an inch toward forgiving me. Occasionally she "slips" and takes an action which shows otherwise, but is usually quick to pullback "so I don't things are fine between us".

I also agree with your assessment of her unknowing self-absorbedness. It's so easy to see now. I think part of the problem there is anytime I question it she runs off (well, calls) her friends who would validate anything she says or does.

Well, like I said, I have some thinking to do. Definitely going to sleep on this one for a couple days before I take any action.

Thanks 25, whg, and karma.