Starting Over

[ESN]

so exBF stayed over last night. She slept all night.

Yay Happy for you.

Yeah, it's amazing to get some sleep after three nights of not sleeping, though I didn't sleep well. But tonight, hopefully, I will. I went to bed too late and was overtired, so I get like D.

The thing is, though, this is VERY distinctive - she sleeps when he's here. When he's not, she lays on top of me all night with her eyes open. Despite my comforting her that everything is okay, mommy is here, etc.

[adinva]

Thanks for the info. What I'd do then is doublecheck with BF as a courtesy to see if he'd be OK still going together (real casual, and don't go into what anyone thinks or who knows or R talks) - just make it sound like you think it would be fun and if he still thinks so then let's plan on it. Keep the tone light.

Assuming he's ok with it, go - and DB like crazy. Look good, have fun, brush off any R talk from anyone (I found "oh we're taking it day by day" to be a useful noncommittal brush-off response), and enjoy your D. That is all very attractive. Be prepared for someone to corner you - thank them for their concern and use your brush off response.

As I mentioned in my thread, I think it's pretty clear that outside support or people "talking to" the wayward one does no good at all and just gives them a chance to reinforce their thinking.

Being attractive and fun on the other hand, does NO harm and can do lots of good.

So that's what I would do.

[ESN]

Oh boy, I don't know about attractive. I picked THE WORST costume. It's a nerd - and she looks VERY nerdy! (frompy nerdy) but I can have a lot of fun in it, and I know people will think it's a blast.

[adinva]

LOL! Your personality will be the attractive part then.

[ESN]

Yeah, let's hope so. Because it is NOT an attractive outfit.

[ESN]

So here's something I wanted to mention. After exBF disappeared for three days and didn't answer his phone, etc. he sent an email that said "I don't have intentions on abandoning my family." But that also mentioned he hadn't listened to my voicemail and that he plans to contact a child psychologist and needed to rest his arm and catch up on work.

It was annoying to say the least. This is very very typical of exBF to want to appear like something he is not. I'm sorry, but driving off b/c your daughter won't go to bed without telling anyone and then not answering calls or texts for three days is not cool. She vomited that night, and I had no idea what she ate for dinner (our sitter just had a stomach virus and was out for a week, so I texted to ask him) and he didn't respond? And then tells me he didn't listen to my voicemail? Which basically was kindly calmly asking him what happened that night and validating that I know he's tired, etc. (Gee, like I'm not?)

So a friend advised that I just write back "Are you coming tomorrow, if not I need to make arrangements?"

(B/c Thursday he comes to see d at 3 and he wrote me on Wed.)

But my gut was telling me to do something else - it was telling me to reflect a little of my own reality (adinva, you may know this from Pia Mellody) ... I feel like just saying "will you be here tomorrow" let's exBF continue to think of himself as this amazing guy, when really we're a bit stranded. I haven't slept for three nights, bills keep coming in that he said he'd pay and isn't, etc. And I'm handling it all but I'm not going to NOT say anything.

So I wrote back with a lot of questions. I said that he left the other night without telling us and had D closed in a room which is something we don't do - and that if he had a sleep plan around that, perhaps we could have discussed it first. I asked what he wanted me to think about that night and the next three days and then writing to tell me he didn't listen to VM.

I asked what he was hoping to hear from a child psychologist,and if he wanted any input on her sleep from me -

He didn't write back but later that day, I texted and asked if he was planning to show up. He said he'd be late (ugh) - when he came over he was being mean. I just let it all go and let them do whatever - and later I said, "Y'know, I stayed up with her for three nights and didn't hear from you and it was pretty tiring. I said, I'm trying to deal with this as best I can, but you're still being mean." He said "I'm tired." And I said, "Well I thought that was the point, you wanted to rest and get away and you did - and he said, "I had to work a lot." I was really understanding and said I know b/c I'm working a lot too, still mostly unemployed, have to move, and being up with her all night is hard." So he lightened up a little and then said, "I can't keep doing this." I said, "Nor can I, but she's our kid and we're her parents, and I would like us to be friends around this - it doesn't have to be more stressful than it already is." So he lightened up again (joked or something) (which is his way, I guess, of letting me know he's heard me or I've gotten through.

I don't know, I feel like I confuse DBing with not needing anything and being able to do it all on my own but I really don't know how to go through that no sleep, work all day thing for longer than I did (three days - my eyes were bloodshot and burning and I couldn't see well enough to edit!) And the apt./roommate search isn't going as quikcly as I hope.

I feel like this was very different in how I intereacted with him b/c I had a clear boundary (in my email sort of gently reflecting my reality) and was not coming from a place of emotioanl reaction. It felt good.

[figgeroni]

why are you staying up all night with your daughter...if she has her own room and she has her own bed then why isn't she in her own room in her own bed even if she is having a hard time sleeping?

I have a 2.5 year old and she never sleeps well with someone else

All children are different but there is no need for you to keep reassuring her

perhaps your reassurance is actually NOT reassuring but rather making her feeling more and more insecure

try letting her soothe herself...

[25yearsmlc]

So here's something I wanted to mention. After exBF disappeared for three days and didn't answer his phone, etc. he sent an email that said "I don't have intentions on abandoning my family." But that also mentioned he hadn't listened to my voicemail and that he plans to contact a child psychologist and needed to rest his arm and catch up on work.

It was annoying to say the least.

I assume what annoys you is the voice mail not getting heard?

Listening to voice mails LATE is a habit of mine b/c they take quite long to get through, esp if you have several saved messages ahead of them.

In states where driving "hands-free only" is the law, it's extra hard. MAYBE that's an issue for him. I greatly prefer texts, but yes I know you sent those too. Just saying voice messages get heard last by most people.

This is very very typical of exBF to want to appear like something he is not.

Lila, let's stick to what he did or said, and not attribute negative character flaws or pile on. It does not help YOU or the cause. It's also Not "solution based", which is the essence of DBing.

I'm sorry, but driving off b/c your daughter won't go to bed without telling anyone and then not answering calls or texts for three days is not cool. She vomited that night, and I had no idea what she ate for dinner (our sitter just had a stomach virus and was out for a week, so I texted to ask him) and he didn't respond? And then tells me he didn't listen to my voicemail? Which basically was kindly calmly asking him what happened that night and validating that I know he's tired, etc. (Gee, like I'm not?)

So a friend advised that I just write back "Are you coming tomorrow, if not I need to make arrangements?"

(B/c Thursday he comes to see d at 3 and he wrote me on Wed.)

But my gut was telling me to do something else - it was telling me to reflect a little of my own reality (adinva, you may know this from Pia Mellody)

meaning you wanted to complain? I know you have the right to your feelings!! But you have to stay on track here.

Letting him know how much harder you think your life is, does NOT HELP YOU...that's the thing YOU need to get.

... I feel like just saying "will you be here tomorrow" let's exBF continue to think of himself as this amazing guy, when really we're a bit stranded.

^^^mind reading, negatively, and more UNhelpful stuff....this is a theme for you that you must someday, somehow, realize has done more harm to YOU than anyone.

I haven't slept for three nights, bills keep coming in that he said he'd pay and isn't, etc. And I'm handling it all but I'm not going to NOT say anything.


are you "handling it all"? How? If you are paying them, he does not have to know. If he said he'd pay and meant it, (not you saying it and him being silent) then act as if they have not been paid, so you can get the money from him after you have handled it.

So I wrote back with a lot of questions. I said that he left the other night without telling us and had D closed in a room which is something we don't do - and that if he had a sleep plan around that, perhaps we could have discussed it first. I asked what he wanted me to think about that night and the next three days and then writing to tell me he didn't listen to VM.

I asked what he was hoping to hear from a child psychologist,and if he wanted any input on her sleep from me -

He didn't write back but later that day, I texted and asked if he was planning to show up. He said he'd be late (ugh) - when he came over he was being mean. I just let it all go and let them do whatever - and later I said, "Y'know, I stayed up with her for three nights and didn't hear from you and it was pretty tiring. I said, I'm trying to deal with this as best I can, but you're still being mean." He said "I'm tired." And I said, "Well I thought that was the point, you wanted to rest and get away and you did - and he said, "I had to work a lot." I was really understanding and said I know b/c I'm working a lot too, still mostly unemployed, have to move, and being up with her all night is hard." So he lightened up a little and then said, "I can't keep doing this." I said, "Nor can I, but she's our kid and we're her parents, and I would like us to be friends around this - it doesn't have to be more stressful than it already is." So he lightened up again (joked or something) (which is his way, I guess, of letting me know he's heard me or I've gotten through.

I don't know, I feel like I confuse DBing with not needing anything and being able to do it all on my own

YES good insight. You do confuse DBing with not needing anything or being non communicative (silent martyr treatment, with seething resentment right under the surface) b/c you may think the only alternative to silence is fighting.

There are other means of communication that don't arouse defensiveness. One "tip" my DB coach gave me was to NOT ask questions that begin with "WHY did you?..." OR "How can....?" b/c the very words indicate we disapprove of what they did and want them to justify it. Which they do! (And Usually with anger.)

I had a LOT of those questions for my h when he left. "How can you do this to our kids? How can you not miss them (He DID miss them but I was telepathic of course) "Why are you so selfish? Why are you doing this to us?" ETC ETC ETC

Think about it. You may find other things you ask that seem to trigger less than desirable responses from him. Learn to restructure the conversations in a way that does not arouse defensive responses from him and YES you do play a role in it so own that, and see what changes in you, do for the change in the dynamic.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the dynamic to stay the same, if ONE of the parties changes. Make that party, you.


but I really don't know how to go through that no sleep, work all day thing for longer than I did (three days - my eyes were bloodshot and burning and I couldn't see well enough to edit!) And the apt./roommate search isn't going as quikcly as I hope.

Hence the need for a sleep routine getting established. I know there are books around and I assume you have read them, & I know one made me feel lots better about letting my son learn to soothe himself. I was not doing him any favor by "rescuing" him all the time.

I was pregnant when we made it our mission to suck it up and get him to stay in his bed. Took a lot of will power and I wonder if we'd have succeeded if I had not been pregnant. I mean, it was do or die for me. I HAD to sleep or the baby would not be okay...

So I will say 2 things on the topic.

We had HUGE problems with our firstborn around this issue and it seemed to be taking LONGER to get him to sleep after the age of 2 b/c, I suppose, I enabled it. I could not let him cry it out if it meant more than a few minutes, etc. But

1) No matter what solution works, it WILL be very uncomfortable for you to apply it at first. There's no easy way to ease them into this OR you'd have done it by now. I know, Some kids don't have problems with it but for those who do, It's NOT going to be easy. You will have to plod through it or you'll still have her in your bed, or you on her floor, when she's 5...that sounds super fun when you start to date...

2) if you have a job or an important task the next day, OR no other time to sleep, then this really matters. So Whatever approach you take, give it enough time for your d to see that there's a new sheriff in town or a new method and mom won't back down -- you have to make a choice and stick with it.

I feel like this was very different in how I intereacted with him b/c I had a clear boundary (in my email sort of gently reflecting my reality) and was not coming from a place of emotioanl reaction. It felt good.

[ESN]

25 - if the vm comment was a "I haven't listened YET' I would feel fine about that. But not listening to VM related to our D isn't that cool and then telling me that and just leaving it like that, what did he expect me to say?

- thanks for the tip about character flaws. YES! I'll have to do that. Big one to work on. Thank you.

- thanks for the feedback on DBing. I think what I did in that note back to him was not so much complain as RESPOND - not REACT - so different for me. and I revised it three times to take out any potential language that could be construed as a leading question or attack or cornering - things like "Would you be willing to consider doing, a or b" "What should I feel when you do e, g" "How can we better do this or that." It was really different for me and felt great.

- and on the sleep stuff, still trying to figure out why she sleeps for exBF but not for me - even though we do the same stuff around bedtime

[ESN]

As far as believing what he says and not attributing negative stuff I get stuck a little

Like I'm in IC and IC is helping me see that I often get myself into Rs where I don't get my needs met - now I realize that if I had done better and been healthier around that, I may not have chosen exBF in the first place. But sometimes we talk about him to show how I didn't get my needs met and he couldn't give me what I needed. So I don't mean it to be negative, but it feels inherent in this kind of discussion.

Also, my old IC and this new one have both said - believe what they do not what they say, and I don't know where to fall on that. "I'm not abandoning my family" as he drives off without telling anyone and doesn't answer his phone for three days ... I wrote and said "I didn't say you did, but what should I think when you do that, you tell me" kind of thing (trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I don't know what that is - certainly not the normal behavior of functioning beings)