Finally confronted H on affair...Now what????

[keep_going]

Wed
This is the email I sent H after our argument last night..

"H,
I apologize for getting upset this evening. I got frustrated because I felt that you were not listening to me and we were just repeating conversations we had previously had since earlier that evening, regarding various topics - girls' swimming class, me going back to work and maritza's firing). I also felt, based on one of your questions earlier, like you didn't even read my email earlier today.

The truth is that I felt hurt and rejected, like you just don't care about what I have to say and you just zone me out. Not that you do it on purpose, but just because what I tell you doesn't have any importance or mean anything to you so you just don't register it. It makes me feel worthless and invisible and that is why I got upset and lashed out.

I also felt hurt because I felt like you were not showing any empathy for my phone being dead or the fact that I got rejected on the credit card application. I felt like you were just trying to get out of here in a hurry and I was not thinking that you were probably tired and that you had already stayed late enough as a favor for me. So I am sorry about that too. I do truly appreciate you staying late tonight and I am mad at myself for not only not showing any gratitude, but blowing it. Besides, my "bad news" are not your problems, and the truth is that they are pretty petty if I think about them more objectively, so I am sorry.

It probably sounds to you like a broken record when I apologize, but I now always try not only to analyze our interactions when our communication breaks down, but to see my faults in them so I can improve in the future. I am sorry I hurt you again."

[keep_going]

And here is H's email back:

"Hi.
Thank you for the email.
Last night....
I just want to be clear that I wasn't asking you to repeat yourself. I was asking for clarification and an update on nanny and work. I know that you feel that you shouldn't go back to work just yet (which is fine), but you originally told me that about a month ago so I was wondering if things had changed. And the reason I was wondering if things had changed was that you mentioned last night that you weren't going back to work until you found something that fit your schedule. So I was wondering then if that meant you were actually looking for work already, which surprised me. It wasn't me being "eager" and I tried to explain that to you last night.

I'm very sensitive to phrases like "as I told you before" and "let me repeat myself". I just think they're incredibly rude and even if I did feel like I was repeating myself, I would never say it. I don't say it when you ask me to explain finances over and over. I just do it and don't complain.

As far as your email yesterday, I did read it and to be honest, I just forgot why you needed to go. I was so ridiculously overwhelmed yesterday afternoon that it was almost ludicrous. I don't get overwhelmed at work easy, but I was definitely there yesterday. It was just the sheer volume and weight of the issues I was dealing with. So I'm sorry I wasn't empathetic about the phone or the credit card. I will try to pay closer attention.

If you don't mind, I'd like to address some housekeeping items...

Working:
Although it would be easier on us if you were working, that doesn't make it the right decision, so please don't assume that I'm eager or, even worse, think I'm looking for some benefit from it when we divorce. To be honest, that statement got me pretty upset and I haven't been able to shake it. I've always said that we're in this financial situation together until you go back to work. I thought it was only fair that I work and pay the bills while you take care of Nico and the girls until Nico's able to sleep through the night and things are settled down more for the girls. I thought we agreed on this early on, but maybe we misunderstood each other. I want us to be able to get through this together so that we're on better financial footing when we do split up our assets. Making decisions about this stuff is difficult and I don't want you to feel pressured or worried, but it's hard not to when we're in this situation.


Credit Card:
I'm sorry that you got turned down. I think the main problem is that they are only considering YOUR income, BUT they are also considering ALL of OUR debt. In other words, they don't consider that you're splitting the debt. So if I were you, I would have no qualms about submitting the total household income when applying for a card, simply because they are also looking at the TOTAL HOUSEHOLD debt too. It's only fair that they consider both. Since you're not putting my name on the credit card, you're still liable for the debt that you incur on that card. (Of course, I am too while we're married, but I trust you completely.)

Budget:
I'm gonna try to take a crack at a budget, but I'd like you to help. Can you start by updating the spreadsheet that we started back in the Spring with your current expenses? I'd be happy to add in my expenses.

Separation Agreement:
I am definitely worried that the bank will require a Separation Agreement to approve the short sale. We don't have one. So my question to you is: do you want to put one in place? I don't think it would hurt for us to have some sort of written agreement. It can be as vague or as specific as we choose, and we can choose not to include subjects we can't agree on. I think it will be a difficult process for both of us, but it's probably something we'll need to do either way.

I do care about you and I do care what you think of me. I still often seek your approval on most things, whether it's a car purchase or work decisions or how I parent. It hurts when I know that you're judging me or you think that I don't care about you. I'm sorry if I come across that way. I'll admit that I have been prioritizing my own needs higher this last year, but I think that's been a long time coming (and it doesn't mean I'm doing it to hurt you). I am paying attention and I am trying to be more considerate."

any thoughts or feedback will be greatly appreciated!

[keep_going]

The hardest thing for me...
I feel like my H is two completely different people right now. Sometimes he is caring, honest, compassionate and nice. Others I feel like I am talking to a complete stranger that is completely detached and uninterested and unaffected by anything that related to his previous life (me and the kids).

Sometimes I believe I am imagining things. When he is nice, I feel guilty and think that maybe I am letting friends and well-intentioned family to influence me and I start questioning his motives. But then I remind myself of his actions. Actions speak louder than words, and I have to remind myself that his actions are saying what he really cares about right now.

And then I get an email like the one he sent me today and the whole cycle starts again...

I think I am losing my mind.

[25yearsmlc]

well GEEZUS RICE...

this is a toughie...

okay I get why you were angry and I love his response to your letter. Both of you owned stuff. Good!

Both of you showed change. Good!

So now, here are 3 suggestions or observations...

1) the baby...OMG I re-read that you have a frickin' 3 MONTH OLD?? Well no wonder nerves are frayed.

Hey, NO WOMAN ON EARTH is pleasant with 3 kids at your kids' ages...good grief!

I'm serious-that's a FACT! The lowest happiness reported in marriages is after the birth of the 2nd child, for about 3 years and things go back up again, unless there's a 3rd child quickly and that starts it up again. Not b/c the kids aren't great but bc of the demands...

the relentless demands on time. I cannot imagine doing what you are doing. I was in law school and h was in medical school when we realized we were UNexpectedly pregnant...I finished law school at night and h watched him and I had him in the day, etc...insane and crazy

but if we'd been having marital issues then??? Um, no thanks...not going to make it.

So you are way stronger than most. I'm impressed with the growth.

Yes you are right, you DO have to suck it up as best you can in the face of tremendous pain and regret....

but you know, he is and was NOT perfect and to say it was an "emotionally abusive" marriage is a bit too convenient and in vogue. It's like he read an article or talked to a t and got a phrase to latch onto...

no marriage is that one sided, NOT when the w has kids AND a big job?? Are you nuts???

You were not sitting on your butt watching TV and eating bon bons wondering why the "loser" you married wasn't cooking dinner for you...

you put in some long hours and though I get why you feel your priorities were misplaced the thing is

you did the best you could at the time with the info you had!!

So stop taking ALL the blame.

I'm very direct. Trust me, I'd let you wallow in your self made situation if I thought you deserved it.

you don't.

2) So go become the woman you always wanted to become, become a woman only a fool would love.
Become the woman he fell in love with and be the best mother to HIS children that you can become.

NO WAY won't he second guess his decision. No way.

But then again, you'll be looking forward, not backwards so who knows where YOU will be then?

All we know for sure is it will be a better place.

3) It's clear to me you have to protect yourself financially b/c you are too vulnerable. Period.

Do what you have to do and make it all business, just as he does in the last few paragraphs. Take the emotion out and stay with the facts BUT PROTECT yourself and don't get cornered into being a working single mom with 3 kids AND a demanding job....

but don't be miserable in your work either. It's about balance, and that's not an easy thing to find.

(We're all finding our way with it even now.)

As long as the legal stuff is separated from you personally
---I really believe HAVING a L helps with this, but I'm a L so maybe that's why.

Seems to me that I get blamed when I represent clients, and that makes it easier on the client.)

Make sense?

Best of luck, and I'll keep watching for you to find the real you inside. The woman in you that you want to be is who you ARE capable of becoming...

any woman with kids your kids ages would be highly stressed...knowing you were working those hours AND having kids was simply expecting the whole superwoman crap I used to believe in. We were fools.

I was in that last year of law school, working part time too, and pregnant, and studying for the bar, thinking it was reasonable to "graduate in May, have a baby in June, take the bar in July and start my new job in August..."

That is what my h told people and he was so proud that I bought into it too!

No one mentioned I might be exhausted in March and April...too exhausted to study past 8pm...and that I needed to simply STOP and have the baby...

which I had to do. I collapsed at school one day. Could not get up...got pre-eclamptic and almost lost our son AND me...

so I had my baby boy in June and took the summer off, and finished at night.

God, or My body stepped in and said STOP THE INSANITY...and we were happily married!

I just went to my high school reunion. Many people my age are either doing fine or NOT and seem to feel lost. Many are divorced and estranged from their kids...

Maybe 2 women I know are "superwomen" like you & I wanted to be-- and both have only ONE child, a demanding career and marriages that are intact. They are very organized and well paid so they hire help, a lot.

I don't know ANY woman with 3 kids, AND a demanding career, AND an intact marriage, all at once, now.

LEARN FROM THIS^^^^^.

Don't compare yourself to women who don't exist. And don't let him do that either.

When OW has his 3 kids AND a well paying job, see how kind and patient she is...

oh, wait, SHE probably won't have to do that....and in time, he'll know. He's not stupid.

While I do think you have to move forward, I don't see this as hopeless if you have a long term approach. But you can move forward and even proceed to separate and even more, and still have some hope.

I have 2 family members who actually divorced and later remarried, (albeit years later). So yes, it happens.

Keep the focus on YOUR own personal spiritual work. People can and do change. I have seen it and I have done it.

((( )))

[25yearsmlc]

ps

when I say "no woman with 3 kids, demanding career and intact marriage"

I mean kids at that age WHILE also having the demanding career, who stay married.

I only know 2 women with careers and kids who are still married to the same men they began with.

Yeah it's a little depressing but that is reality.

There was no balance.

And that imbalance -which we all face periodically- can only last so long til something breaks.

[keep_going]

Hi 25 - Nice to see you back here and thanks again for the response!

I totally hear what you are saying about the superwoman syndrome... I definitely bought into that falacy... I even had a few "examples" of women who made it work. One at a time, these examples proved false - they left the workforce to be with their children, got divorced or decided not to have kids.

I even had a "role model" - my sister in law. Had her own ad agency, had two beautiful boys and had the perfect marriage with my brother. They always looked so happy together. She had it all it seemed.

Fast forward to 2010... She was still very successful at her job, but she and my B announced their separation - shocking to everyone. Her kids, now teenagers are struggling big time and it turns out she cheated on my brother, so now, after 20 years together they are going to D. So my role model's life didn't turn as wonderful as I thought, and neither did mine.

The ironic thing about my sitch is that I have worked my butt off since I met my husband and we were dating, to build a future for us and our family. I thought that was a demonstration of my love to him. But he never saw it that way, our marriage is done in part due to the lack of baance and we are also losing everything we obtained financially, so there you have it - there is no such thing as superwoman.

But like you say, time to look ahead, not behind and save what I can - myself and my kids. I do plan on sticking to my R long-term - against what everyone tells me. But I am putting any active efforts in the back-burner - I realize this will take a very long time if it will work. And like you say - I might change my mind as well.

For now, H needs to live thru his R with OW and we'll see how that goes... She lives up north, so just logistically it will be hard for them to make it work, but so far, they are doing fine and they really are fighting for it, which is not a good sign for me.

They are also taking it slow in terms of integrating to each other's lives. They are trying to legitimize their R and make everyone believe they just started it and not 10 months ago when they started an EA when both were still with their spouses.

My H is also trying by all means to hide the fact that they were in a PA when she was still living with her H. (He claims since we were already separated, that he never cheated on me - boy that hurts so much). But enough about them...

In the meantime, I am focusing on myself. I have my third session with my new T today - she specializes in anger management and I hope to get some tools that can help me in my day to day...

I talked to our nanny yesterday - I will only be able to employ her for another month on a part-time basis. It's sad - she has been my support system for almost 4 years now. But she needs the money just like I do and she will be looking for another full time job.

And I need to be here for my kids now. The girls are really struggling - new house (moved in just a week before H left last year), the separation and a new baby... I ordered a book on how to deal with divorce and kids... Will also be looking into other resources to help me deal with that and help them transition.

Baby is still not sleeping thru the night and the girls also wake up nightly with nightmares. I am looking forward to that ending - that will be a huge help for me - lack of sleep = a lot of irritability for me - not good for my emotional growth, which is the #1 thing I need to concentrate on - for me, my kids and my M. My H will need to see changes in me on that regard to ever be able to see me differently. It's a trust issue for him - he doesn't trust that I will be different and that our R will ever be any better. I get that, so it's on me to prove him otherwise.

I have to run - my daughter got lice at pre-school so I need to go get them both and deal with that today as well...

I will post soon.

And thanks again for all the support 25!

[Harrier]

25,

I usually read everything you write. Big Fan.

I do have a question about something you posted and I hope it's not hijacking this thread.

When you say I don't know ANY woman with 3 kids at that age WHILE also having the demanding career, who stay married.

Do you think this is just impossible or that something has to give in these situation and often times it's the marriage?

How is it possible, if at all, to have some sort of all three? if so, how?

You know my situation. My W is a psychologist, we have only 2 kids 5 and 2, and I am an L (though no courtroom work)

I know it's 2 kids vs 3, but I guess I never thought about it like that. Our MC, my IC kept telling me that what we had going on was very difficult.

Also, I did a substantial amount of parental and housework duties as well.

Were we destined to have issues.(not as an excuse) I guess I'm trying to get a woman's POV. thanks.

[25yearsmlc]

Harrier your name is familiar but the sitch is vague so I'm going by your notes below which may be insufficient.

I went to my high school reunion and b/c I'm president of my class (unbeknownst to me, it's a life time commitment I made at age 17) so I stay in touch with nearly everyone in some form.

When making career and marriage choices then, I had few role models for women with kids and "real" jobs. By real jobs I mean ones you take home with you and or have long hours. NOT putting down other jobs but am trying to distinguish why I feel some hurt us more.

I DO know nurses & a few teachers, writers or others who determine their own hours, who are able to make things work with kids and husbands, but they limit the hours they work or leave it at work when they get home.

ALSO even they say (per studies) that at the age your kids are, marital satisfaction was an all time low. I sure agree with that. My hormones, chronic lack of sleep and work demands on both of us (early in our careers we are SO concerned b/c we want to make partner or win the case or impress the boss and get the right residency and PASS his classes and rotations and NOT KILL a patient, and making money is all tied into it and there's a sense of urgency too...) and the kids' demands and MONEY worries...

and sexual expectations for our age group but seeing our childless friends having what seemed like a ball....all contributes...

Divorce is high then too. They say 7 years but look into that number and you'll often see that there are children under school age then...

25,

I usually read everything you write. Big Fan.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I do have a question about something you posted and I hope it's not hijacking this thread.

When you say I don't know ANY woman with 3 kids at that age WHILE also having the demanding career, who stay married.

I've been m 30 years. At my reunion there were only 3 couples out of 90 (we had a larger class but 90 classmates came) who had been m as long or longer.

Several were still m for over 20 years. But I can't think of more than 2 who had both professionals and small kids who lasted. Then again Harrier, I can't think of many IN GENERAL who are still married.

But I believe the ones who made it ALL seemed to have gone to part time work, or no working for a few years with a parent (90% the mom) staying at home for awhile.
Some of THOSE couples are still married.

Do you think this is just impossible or that something has to give in these situation and often times it's the marriage?

It is often the marriage that gives, b/c the kids can't be "given" out and the job SEEMS like THE GOAL, and the ONLY WAY we can "make it"...

As a woman, I feel I bought into superwoman too much for too long and so did my h. I thought we could 'have it all AND at the same time". I now think we can have it all IF we space it out AND IF we have the right partner.

Not only did I get pre-eclamptic in law school with the first child but with the 2nd pregnancy I ruptured a disk and then b/c I was more sedentary I got pneumonia and was hospitalized...had to be ordered to part time bed rest when the back just gave out. Could not walk up stairs, or lift my legs much.

talk about the universe sending me a signal....I suppose My body (or God) intervened and said "WTH are you doing??"

I myself find pregnancy demanding as hell on my body. I'm also not good at dropping a case at 5pm, I tend to brood about it and am preoccupied, which my kids call me on now.

But early in life I was better with them b/c I found them far more interesting than my work but my work suffered, I'm sure.

I let housework slide. Had to. I got up at 6 am (not a morning person) and got the 2 kids ready (we had a third one much later) for breakfast and dressing and getting to the sitter. Hopefully it would be a smooth morning. I'd also get dressed/make up and "eat" coffee and then get to work by 8am. That's a 2 hour rushed thing b/c of the commute. Mostly stressful.

Get to work. WORK and hope no one calls to say kids are sick or fighting or biting or whatever....Get off work and bring some into the car thinking I'll do it at home. Drive to the kids, pick them up and hear about their day. As SOON as we get home they are starved so they are cranky while I am getting dinner. H misses all this. I make the dinner and feed them and wolf some down too. H comes home and says "what's for dinner?" He has been up since last night on a long case and is sleep deprived. He plays like a mad man with the kids for 10 minutes, eats and falls asleep for an hour until I ask him if he has a case to prepare for (in which case he'll disappear to study for it) or if he doesn't, he might MIGHT play some more or help with something but 80% of the time is too tired to do that so he falls asleep somewhere. I give them baths most nights or just read to them and put them to bed and then I clean up the kitchen ...then it's maybe 9-9:30 pm by the time they are in bed and dishes are done.

I MIGHT read some work related stuff or watch 10 min of news but I mainly get my info from the radio drive to work...I am TIRED...God help me if I need to do MY hair at night...so by 10:30 I'm in bed and h is asleep or "sleep reading" and we talk for 4 minutes and fall asleep. One or both of the kids awaken each night for a few minutes so sleep is interrupted. Hopefully it's a matter of reassuring them and NOT having them in our bed which wrecks everyone's sleep, or at least my h's and mine.

While h was in med school, and training, (so that's 8 years after college and veterinary school, and med schol began when son was 8 WEEKS old) meaning

when we married, h was in vet school (but wanted to change over but stuck it out to finish his DVM). THen he practiced vet medicine 3 years while I was in law school then he switched to human medicine, which is 4 years plus 4 for residency/fellowship. Relentlessly long almost cruel hours. 9 Thanksgivings out of 10, literally, he was on call. 1/3 of Christmases and always had to choose between Christmas Eve and New Year's...when I say I felt neglected, I can say that indeed I was. I say that without anger, it's just obvious.

When I studied for the bar, h was neglected too. The difference? Um, 7 1/2 years I guess.

So when the kids were young, that was MY life, M-F and weekends were the same, minus work. So they were good days but not "great" b/c all the other stuff and catching up on bills and yardwork and car stuff and LIFE in general and dating each other and having a social life, etc

also play out then.

I was NOT happy in my life in a sense b/c I was so on the go. But I loved being a mom way more than I expected to, AND that seemed to only get better.

As for the marriage I wasn't satisfied at that time, but not "unhappy" either, b/c I felt that in time things were going to improve b/c his training would end.

AND the kids got older. Childcare costs went down as they entered school AND they slept more regularly and were not so fragile. That improved too.

So I had hope for that and didn't get too frustrated with him so much as I was with how hard my life was. Many family members commented on our ambition but worried for us or my health or whatever. They also admired it and that played into our egos too.


If there'd been no end in sight, and "this is my life??" I would not have made it. I doubt he would have either...I just did too much at once, but I don't really blame him. His career is too unrelenting on families.

OH BTW We DID make a lifestyle change. We moved to a place where our commute was cut dramatically and we each gained about 10-12 waking hours at home during the week. That's a lot of time. Instead of waking at 6 am I woke at 7 AND the kids were not as rushed AND the commute home was 14 min instead of 90 and no drop offs. It was also cheaper to live there so there was some disposable income too.

For our third child, we chose for me to stay home for a few years which turned into 7. I'm still fine with that.

I will not say what's right for all women b/c this was supposed to be about CHOICE and not having the two camps; "working moms" and "full time moms".

We all "work" and we are all "full time moms"...(who are these "part time moms"? Maybe WAWs who leave the kids...)

But there are women far more organized and better "compartmentalized" than me, so I am in no position to say no one else can do it.

I just think it was too damn hard on ME, and it's harder on the woman in the couple, in almost all the cases. So she often is miserable. IMO...

and from what I saw this past weekend after 30 years, it seems like the couples who made it had eased up on some area and either downsized, simplified, or changed their lives to find the elusive balance we all seek out.

How is it possible, if at all, to have some sort of all three? if so, how?

You know my situation. My W is a psychologist, we have only 2 kids 5 and 2, and I am an L (though no courtroom work)

I know it's 2 kids vs 3, but I guess I never thought about it like that. Our MC, my IC kept telling me that what we had going on was very difficult.

They were right.

Also, I did a substantial amount of parental and housework duties as well.

Were we destined to have issues.(not as an excuse) I guess I'm trying to get a woman's POV. thanks.

hope this helps. I suggest if you reconcile or remarry, first off-- HIRE HELP.

Consider it a quality of life thing. Like oxygen...

Make time for dates as a couple. You're doing your KIDS a favor by still liking each other..

[keep_going]

25 -

As always, your posts are full of wisdom - or what I would call learned lessons from life experiences. Thanks for all the info and guidance. You are a true source of inspiration for me. I've read ALL your threads (it took a while, since like me, you tend to write long posts), and found your personal journey so compelling. Seeing how you got to the other side after so many challenges and the strength you displayed thruout gives me hope in my own journey - which I know - will be very long.

BTW - had my counseling session today and it went well. I got some good practical, day to day tools to deal with stress, pressure, anger and hurt. I think they will be very beneficial.

I have also spent the last three weeks reading threads of people with either similar situations to mine or just success stories. Some current and some from the archives. I have learned so much and found renewed strength for MY own growth.

thanks again and I will be following your posts closely as I have so far.

[25yearsmlc]

you're very welcome. I congratulate you on reading my thread. I can't do it again myself.

Brings me back to times I'd prefer forgetting most days. Note that what I believed then, DID change. I had little hope at times. A lot of times...

that means what your h actually believes now (not what he's telling himself) is also something that can change.

Try reading BrandNewDay's for a really challenging situation that seemed, well,

NOT GOOD (it was very hard to have hope at times, I'm sure)

but they're together now. They moved out here to California. She has 8 kids...and a great sense of humor, and an intact m.

Her name was once "faith&hopeinNH" I think. But anyhow, we do exist.

And we're all works in progress.

I think you'll be a great partner for your next r and I hope it's with your h.

But both of you expected way too much of each other and for you, given the physical realities of having the kids, way way way too much of YOU.

I'm sorry he bought into it all, but I understand it. You are far too hard on yourself.

You can learn to say "maybe I took on too much and for that, I'm sorry" and leave it at that. At some point in the future HE will realize at least that much.

If you have changed/are changing the anger issues and problem solving tools and approaches, that's all you can do for now.

You have to become the best woman you can be, from this day forward, and then

leave the results up to God.

((( )))