GALing and Boundaries with XH

[AntoniaB]

Walking, I have a question, then. How do you get a rel. like that even started? You're not going to go meet someone that far away after just a few conversations, but rel. that start long-distance run the risk of getting built up and then there being no chemistry at all when you meet in person. Or did you meet this person IN PERSON first and then strike something up? I do know a person who was widowed and who met a guy about 3 years after very briefly on the London metro, and they then corresponded via email/phone for awhile, and now they are married, and they spend a decent amount of the year apart and it really works well for them. But she knew there was chemistry at the outset as she did meet him in person first on her last day abroad.

[AJM]

So much to say, so little space....

I have avoided the "meat market" bars, I guess for 2 reasons: I don't want to feel objectified by leering guys undressing me with their eyes, which is what everyone I know says will happen if I go to places like that, and also, I'm kind of afraid that if that does NOT happen, it will shoot my self-esteem WAY down. Isn't that crazy? I don't want to get hit on, but then if I don't it will validate my feelings of invisibility, ha ha.

What everyone you know says??? What about you? What do you say about it? Have you tried?
See, this is about you. Your journey. What you like, dislike, want or don't want. Not about others is it?

Like you, though, I can be a bit too direct - and too self-sufficient. I think a lot of men like a woman to be more vulnerable - I need to remind myself that it's ok to let a guy see I might need his help sometimes.

<sigh> It is ok to let a guy see you need help sometimes. They are NOT your enemy, silly. But they are different. They see things differently. Then again, do you want a guy that only sees what he wants to see??? More later in the post.

I was talking about this to Eric and he said maybe now I'm looking TOO eager. I can't win ;-)

How about looking like yourself and possibly interested and approachable?

I would literally hate myself if I were to revert to my old girly girl damsel in distress behavior...and I do think that around here, that's what men want.

Now I think you started down the right path figuring out what you wanted. Then you went and equated it to hunting men. Maybe it is what some of them want. Maybe not. But you really don't know do you? More later....

Anyway I feel like I'm going to have to start paying to get massages just to deal with this type of loss. How absurd is that? But I can't seem to find any literature out there about this particular post-divorce problem, and without a book to guide me I'm lost ;-)

What's wrong with that? I did the same thing. For the same reasons. Twice. Liked it, but don't always have the time.

And no, a wedding band doesn't necessarily put men off.

Women either...

I just feel like this is all so ridiculous, you know?

I think some of the thinking that is being done may be on the ridiculous side. I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'll explain below...

Honestly, I feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of sappy dudes with this online dating venture. They give off such a needy vibe it's unbelievable.

. Huh. Just the men? Or is that just what you see because you are looking there? Just checking. What vibe do you give off do you think? Curious to know.

run the risk of getting built up and then there being no chemistry at all when you meet in person

Risk? Did I hear the term, "risk" thrown about?


Look. The thing is you need to be able to risk. Risk having your heart broken - again. But you need to explore. You said it yourselves - you only knew the one guy for so long and had been somewhat set in your ways that you really and honestly may not know what you like these days. It's not ridiculous. It's silly. It's fun. It's lighthearted. It's sometimes scary. It's sometimes more exhilirating than scary. Kind of like a ride at the amusement park.

Stop worrying about what men want. Start worrying about what you want. Because when you figure out what you want, you'll find yourself among your "peeps". You will be accepted. You will be among your friends. You will meet people with similar values, goals, dreams, experiences and you will find somebody who wants to be with you because of you. And you may find you want that too.

Be yourself. Be real.

I can tell you from my perspective, I am SICK AND TIRED of unreal people in my life. I've had it. I'll throw them all out before I'll accept being with somebody who is fake. I'm all about somebody who wants to work at things and is interested in things because of me. Don't get me wrong. But don't cross that line into being something you are not. I'll toss you right out of my life and you'll bounce as you pass the curb. I expect the women in my life to do the same to me if I were to be that way. I really and honestly do. My friends too.

Make it real or else forget about it. Don't even come close to lying. Don't assume you know what I want in a woman (that brings up a good joke...for another time though). I am a grown man. Ask me. Test me. See. That's what makes it interesting. Two people that are figuring each other out. Feeling things out and bumping along. Bruising. Healing. Working towards getting to know each other.

I will say that my first long term relationship after my ex was long distance. The biggest issue I had with it (besides my own head space) was that we always got along. It wasn't real. Every time we met things were great!! She's a great lady. Really. We met on avg about 2-3 a month. Worked well for a long time. But along the way I realized we never learned to fight. We never learned to have a progressive relationship. We connected on many levels but we (I) couldn't take it any further because of the distance. There may be a time when the distance is too much. I was willing to find out and I was willing to lose. I did both and I'm glad I know her. I'm sorry it didn't work out but I'm not sorry we don't see each other any longer.

Risk. If you cannot risk, you cannot receive.

Be you. Don't be somebody else. Don't live somebody else's life. Get out and explore. See what it is that you want. What you really want to get out of life and stop taking other people's opinions about it....

AJ

[dl443322]

Antonia, you ever hear stories about women who try for years to get pregnant and then they decide to adopt only to get pregnant while in the process? I know of at least 5 women that has happened to?

While I know there most certainly are fertility problems, I know for these women it was the stress. At least that's what they think. They feel the stress of trying to get pregnant and expecting to be pregnant inhibited them from actually being able to.

I tell you this because I think that when we try really hard to get something, often times the actually stress we put on ourselves stops us from obtaining our goal.

I also think that for me, meeting someone has to be a natural thing. It would need to be someone with whom I connect with common interests.

Taking all I have learned on my journey, it would have to be someone who likes me as I am. Someone I can hang with and laugh with.

I am over 4 years post bomb. I was not intersted in meeting anyone as knew I was not ready. I knew I still had things to work out and work on. It would not have been fair to anyone or to me to even look before I was ready.

I am dating someone now. I was not looking for anyone,. I was quite happy with my life and fine alone. He is someone I knew 30 years ago but had not seen since then.

It all happened by coincidence. We became reaquainted as friends. And it developed from there. I do not know where it will lead. I am very honest with him. He is, mnost of all, my friend.


My point is that when I wasnt looking, he fell into my life. I was fine without him and would be fine without him again.

So, just go out and make some friends. Do stuff that interests you. Put yourself out there and be yourself.

Dont worry about what type of guy you are looking for and what kind of guys there are.

Just live your life. Dont overthink these kinds of things.

What is supposed to happen, will. In the meantime, have fun and make a few more friends.

[Walking]

Great post AJM. So many truths in there.

Antonia in answer to your question about my relationship - we met briefly at a meeting in his state. We work in a similar field and we swapped contact details to exchange information. It all went from there.

I think AJMs post has heaps of wisdom in it - and the key, key, key thing I've learned about men and dating, post divorce, is to be myself, be happy and be OK ... when we've got it all together, the rest all falls into place.

I would also really encourage you to read about and understand feminine and masculine energy. There is some great stuff available on the net that explains it very well. One of my country-women, an Australian woman called Renee Wade writes reasonably prolifically on this on her blog, The Feminine Woman. There is also a woman called Rori Raye who writes internet courses on relationship stuff, but her hypothesis is about femininity … you have to dig to find it, but it’s there.

The concept is that we use feminine and masculine energy, but women who are very successful professionally have to learn to rely on their masculine energy to do what they need to do in the workplace. Masculine energy is the doing energy. It’s the get in there and make things happen stuff. It’s about control and its very important to operate in the outside/business world. Feminine energy is the receiving energy. Its about tapping into the Divine in each of us. It’s the trusting energy. It’s the ability to release control and accept the waves of love, fate and destiny that life throws at us.

Too much masculine energy is a turn off for a lot of men (those who are attracted to women who operate from the masculine are normally suffering with a bit too much feminine energy of their own!) It’s not about men not being attracted to women who are strong, independent and successful – it’s about men not being attracted to women, who are strong, independent and successful, but who don’t know how to tap into their soft, caring, accepting spirit.

We are most attractive when we know ourselves, have strong boundaries, like ourselves and our lives and know what we want …. But not to the exclusion of being open, honest and loving in the way we approach the world.

It’s 4 years since my divorce was final and I’m still learning. Sometimes it scares me that I’m 40 and I don’t have it together in a committed, live-in relationship, with a shared house and pets and cars … but the reality is that this is my journey and who says we all have to live the white-picket fence fantasy?

I think we feel the pressure from our family and friends to have a partner and to be part of a couple, it’s the expectation that we all want to live the traditional fairytale in order to live happily-in-the-ever-after. But it’s a con. I lived that life for 15 years – and in hindsight, it actually didn’t make me that happy. I was content. The years slipped by quickly and uneventfully. It was safe and comfortable – but it was also pretty mediocre.

I think that this period of our lives can be somewhat of a second chance. A chance to truly live authentically – now how we are “expected” to live by our parents or society more broadly, but how we chose – with all that entails.

[AJM]

Amen Walking. Amen.

-aj

[AntoniaB]

Wow, this is all really helpful. I will follow up on the masculine/feminine energy info too.

I have put a lot of thought into "what I want." The eharmony profile sort of forced me to do that. I basically said that I was looking for someone who was generally "at peace" with himself and who had a good rel. with himself, but who also knew that people can always keep growing in new ways. This is how I see myself--and I said that--and I also said that I thought we needed to really know how to achieve happiness as single people in order to be able to be equal partners in a relationship, that to me, the best rel. would be one where there are two individuals, with some similar interests but perhaps not ALL similar interests, who want to share the best of who they are with another person and who are curious about learning new things.

I do get that being single a long time is normal, and that it's not the end of the world. I wish I knew more long-term single people in my area. They just don't seem to exist. So I guess what this all comes down to is jealousy.

I am jealous of every person I see who is with someone and who seems to take it for granted. I'm sure I was once one of those people.

I know a total of 2 single people outside this message board. TWO. And I know hundreds of people. One of those single people is a guy who has 4 friends with benefits...so he's having regular intimacy with no ties with women he trusts. He seems quite happy. The other single person is the woman I mentioned above who is just an acquaintance who's been divorced many years and has horrifically low self-esteem. Everyone else I know at work or elsewhere is married, and for anywhere from 10 to 30 years.

Now obviously, some people in relationships are not in a great place. But I guess I tell myself that the fact that they are in a rel., for better or worse, means that they have a chance to be "better." I have nothing in that respect.

I also know that I have a lot to offer a mate...especially with the changes I've made, and the men that were part of my XH's and my friend network for 20 years always said I the wife that "everyone wished they could have because I was so cool."

This sounds so arrogant, and I do not mean it to be. You have to understand that I am told by everyone who knows me how awesome I am. This was how it was long before XH left. I've got loads of college girls who have "crushes" on me, for lack of a better word, because they think of me as this amazing role model who SO has her stuff together.

There is no shortage of people--mainly female-- telling me I'm a catch. But when it comes down to it, men are not treating me that way. Not one man I have met has ever expressed that he was attracted to me except for my XH. NOT ONE.

This makes me wonder if everyone is blowing smoke up my you know what ;-)

God I so hope I don't come off as whiny. It is not my intention. I just really am stuck on this stuff lately. This is why I spent so long thinking I had to stand and wait for my XH to see the light...because he was the only one ever attracted to me.

It unnerves me so much to think that I can have so many accomplishments and have done so many things for myself and for other people and yet be hung up on this...to think that somehow I am less of a person because no man wants me. I hate that it gets to me and that I can't control these feelings.

What can I say? I feel very wanted as a sister, a daughter, a friend, a confidant, and a mentor. I feel entirely unwanted as a potential romantic partner. Why I am letting that last part trump the rest is beyond me.

I am literally fearful for how bad this will all hit me when my book is done. I think my book distracts me for the most part now. I actually have been fleshing out ideas for the next article/book now...just because I'm worried that when I finish with this project, there will be a total void, and I don't want to live with that.

[AntoniaB]

Whoa...revelation of sorts.

I've realized that I'm coming off as uber self-sufficient not only because I am (out of necessity) but also because XH accused me most strongly of being too much of a princess when he "chose" OW for her non-princess qualities...

He kept telling me over and over that I was too needy and he left me for a woman who wasn't.

So that has made me think that the only way I'll ever attract anyone is to be super detached and self-sufficient.

There is nothing wrong with self-sufficiency. But if I'm coming off like a woman who doesn't appreciate a man holding a door for her, that's not me either, really. I do appreciate that sort of thing.

It's funny. I thought that the biggest thing I'd put out there was "no cheaters." Yet what I'm really putting out there is "I don't need you!"

Which means I'm still internalizing blame for XH's actions...not good!

[AJM]

Sorry? Not good? Why is this not good?

Antonia, you are being very self critical. You're coming across as nervous.

But what you're missing is the excitement aspect. You're focused so much on finding that you're missing the fun of the chase. Those awkard moments. Those horrible first dates. That first kiss with a beautiful human being. That tenderness. That vulnerability. The exhilaration of it all.

You seem to be caught up in the goal and not the event.

Take a breath. Look back at what you're learning here. You're expressing doubts. You're expressing fears. You're over thinking some of it. But if you look closely, you are thinking about things and how you want to be. To be and to be seen.

You want to be accepted by a romantic interest but you are not yet sure of yourself.

Some of what your xh says still stings. Dig into that. Find out why and what you do or do not need to change about you for YOU. Not for some guy you can fool into liking you.

God created you as He intended. He created another for you to love and be loved by. He likely created many actually. Your xh is not it. He cannot handle it. But there are others that can and will thrive off of what and who you are. Really.

First things first. Did your xh really know the real you? Did he just know the you he wanted you to be at the time? Who and what are you now? Where is the real Antonia?

Because that is the person that somebody will love. That is the somebody that will figure out how to approach you. That is the person that will attract the "right" person.

The other facets of your life speak to the rest of you. The effort you are putting into this speaks to the person you are and the desires you have.

You only want what you dont have right? It'll be there though. Believe that.

I know lots of guys that want that kind of woman. A real woman. One who knows herself. I'm one of those. I do not and never did want a robot or an actor. I highly value a real person. One who wants to be there. I don't really care if she is a garbage collector or a Uni Professor. I prefer the latter because I prefer a person I can talk to. But the occupation is not important to me.

I'm a man. And I'm single.

In your area, you see others as they want you to see them. Somebody once said that if everyone took their issues and problems and put them in a pile, they would want their own back. I find that to be true. No matter what you see, you only see what they want you to see.

The fun of dating is to get to know somebody and see who and what they really are. Warts and all at some point. Hopefully not too quickly

Relax. Have fun. Embrace. Let your light shine. Men can't resist that. Heck, women can't either.

Oh, and eHarmony is not a good measure of who you are. None of the online sites really is. Life is messy. Get your sleeves dirty and go see for yourself.

AJ

[AntoniaB]

Yes this whole venture makes me VERY nervous. I have no dating experience other than XH. No intimacy other than XH. Just a few random dates in HS with guys I barely remember who pursued me and who I went out with just so I could say I went out with "someone." Never told anyone else I loved them but XH; never slept with anyone else.

I feel horribly out of my league and yet like this hourglass is just spewing sand...counting down the remaining days of my life, lol.

Most of the time I feel like XH's betrayal ruined me for ever being with anyone else, because despite what he did, I loved him so completely, and I was attracted to him and never wavered on that. He still looks 10 or more years younger than his age and is incredibly handsome. I never see any guys who look anywhere near as good as he used to look to me (I say used to because I will admit that recent pics I see of him, I'm no longer attracted to him...he has this weird smile he never had before that I really hate!)

Anyway, aside from all that, I take it that you mean I need to try to get out more and meet people in places I haven't tried yet. I can try that, sure.

I did actually have 2 eharmony dates and they were AWFUL. In both cases, the guys told me that I was great, but that they were just too socially awkward for me. The first date, the guy and I spent a month talking on email every day, and phone convos in the week prior to meeting. I tried to meet him earlier and he kept getting "sick" at the last minute and cancelling. When we finally met, we were together 30 min. and he said he felt sick again, and he ended the date at just over an hour. He emailed me a few hours after to tell me that he had gone home and vomited. He also said that this was purely nerves, that he had terrible anxiety over meeting me as he "knew he would never be able to pull off the same guy he was on email in person and that I'd reject him." This guy turned out to be a basket case. He kept asking ahead of time for me to "commit" to staying friends if we didn't have chemistry, so I said sure, and I tried to just keep up a friendship. He dropped the ball fast, though, after we met. It was like that dude on South Park. He was completely freaked out to meet in person, and yet on letters, he was suave as can be.

The other date I had on eharmony, well I asked that guy to meet after just a few emails, figuring don't waste a month of your life on someone and build something up that never goes anywhere. He thought that was a good plan. I met him. We talked 4 hours. Got along great.

3 days later, I got an email from him, saying this: "I don't really have a good sense of identity and I'm not sure where I'm going in life at all, so I don't think I'm a good match for you, but you're terrific."

???

In both cases, these were guys who had never married, about 40 or 42, and had never had long-term relationships. They seemed to want instant wives--and when we didn't hit it off as that on the first meeting, they bolted.

So as a result I changed my parameters on eharmony to include men who may have had children...(I'm a no kid person myself) and I've gotten a ton more matches but they just don't seem interested. I've sent out some icebreakers and these guys just flat out don't respond. They don't close me as a match, but the ignore me. It's messed up.

[kml]

Not one man I have met has ever expressed that he was attracted to me except for my XH. NOT ONE.

Just a few random dates in HS with guys I barely remember who pursued me and who I went out with just so I could say I went out with "someone."

Ummm...if the long-forgotten high school guys pursued you, then it's not really true that NO ONE was ever attracted to you, right????

As far as attraction goes - the first, most important part is to be comfortable in your own skin and sexuality. When you have that spring in your step, believe me, guys notice.

The second thing is - get a good friend to give you an objective assessment on whether you need to update your look. Hair color or cut? Wardrobe? I'm not saying you need to change into someone you're not, but a lot of us could use a little shove out of our comfort zones (just watch any episode of What Not To Wear).

And as far as dating goes - try to relax. Every date is not going to be "the one". Most will be awkward or just turn into interesting stories to tell at dinner parties. Some may turn out to be fleeting but romantic interludes. Let them just be what they are going to be, without trying to squeeze them into a relationship box.

I dated three guys before my current boyfriend. All three of them turned into good friends that I treasure; that was able to happen because I was willing to accept that we just weren't right for each other for the long haul. Each of them gave me something valuable that I needed at the time.