What was I an idiot? Of course there's an OM...

[jbnati]

WHG, just continue to collect the positives. It's not going to change overnight. The more of the little things you can do right, the more you have a chance to chip away at the wall. Baby steps.

Hopefully this is like what you referred to as the darkness before the dawn.

Hang in there! Marathon not a sprint!

[2thepoint]

Hey WHG, if it helps, based upon your description of your day, I'd probably be feeling the same way. Seems like a yo-yo kind of a day including the interaction with your W. Best to just chalk up the good and forget the bad I suppose.

You have been doing good with the 180's so maybe you need to detach a little. Although you seem to have fairly good interactions with your W, perhaps putting a little distance between you two would also help. Continue to be loving of course but try distancing a little and see what happens.

Take care!

[workinghardguy]

Thanks JB. I think the wall analogy is my issue... I actually see a wall. And that wall looks so solid. When I think I see chips or very small, tiny even, ok micro-fractures let's call them and I look again they're gone. I could've swore they were there, but then we're right back to "when we're apart", "next year when I just won't have the money", "don't want to rely on you"...

ugh... ok, I'm whining, I'll shut up now. Thanks for the reply.

[workinghardguy]

Journaling... not a lot went on today, which seems amazing for what life has been like of late. W worked 12 hours today so barely saw her this morning and then she was going to a friend's house tonight for a birthday party/Passion party.

This morning did have an interesting sequence... tomorrow is son's last soccer practice (kindergarten soccer) of the fall session. W has had to work every week except last week, but last week she was at a funeral out of town. S really wanted her to be there this week and had asked her last week to come. She said she would see if she could come in late. I know my W, and just like the guitar lesson babysitting from a few days ago, she'd likely forgotten this too.

So this morning I start thinking should I remind her? Do I "caretake" and be sure she makes it? or do I let her forget, fail, and then have to explain to S why she didn't show up? After wrestling with this for a bit I finally decide that my own personal core values are a) to be compassionate and caring and b) to not make my S suffer.

So I text her about it. I did find it funny that I probably spent 10 minutes composing that text message. If our spouses knew the amount of energy and time we put into every freaking communication with them, they might just give up and come back out of sheer amazement

I tried to not be controlling or overreaching... just hey, did that ever happen? type of question. She texts me back that she forgot and will check with her boss. Ok, thanks. Disinterested and child-focused.

Worked from home today so that wasn't great as it meant time to ruminate and sit on the boards But overall I'm feeling ok I guess. Had my second DB coaching session... again, ok but not earth-shattering. I guess the greatest value was as a sounding board to say, "hey... Mr. Glass is Half Empty and leaking... take stock of where you are at and the positives and just accept them" I have a hard time with that piece... like without her giving up on splitting in June all the positives don't mount to a hill of beans, even though they do. The basic message was "quit whining and count your blessings... I have lots of clients who would kill to have your problems". Ok, I get it...

Just a few minutes ago I was reading a post where someone pointed out that most WAS are self-debating even when they look solid as a rock. So I guess I will have to hope that's what's going on in my W's head.

S and I went out for fish fry tonight after playing in the park. The going out was actually my W's idea a couple days ago. We had fun and I'd never gone to a real restaurant (i.e. not McD's) with him before where it was just he and I. He was a great little guy. I had to chuckle as at one point I got up to go to the salad bar and when I got back he had moved his plate, silverware, crayons, drawing stuff, and drink all the way across the table so he could sit next to me instead of across from me. Industrious little guy he is After dinner we walked home and ran to the store. I knew my W would be going by the house shortly and I was not going to be home when she did that - I wanted her to see a dark house.

One last event I thought interesting and positive before I logoff... my W texts me late afternoon that she is able to come to soccer tomorrow morning and that she'll call later to talk to S before bed. I text her back and tell her thanks for working it out, S is excited (though I wait about 20 minutes before I respond). She replies that she's glad she could do it and is looking forward to it. It just all seemed so clinical and ex-wife/ex-husband type communication. Made me feel creepy.

But then tonight she calls me to talk to S. I answer and simply say "hold on" and hand the phone to S. S and W talk for a while, he's five so phone conversations don't go real long plus mom was interrupting Green Lantern Suddenly S hands the phone back to me. I see the calls still connected so I say hi. W seems a little startled as says she wasn't sure if S had hung up or put her down or what. I play it cool and say "ok... well I'll talk to you later" and then W starts talking. She talks about her day, soccer tomorrow, this party she's heading to, her friend's birthday. Then she almost hits some deer but misses them. Then we share a funny memory of when we were dating and I was driving super-slow due to snowy roads. Two deer ran out and hit my car (they ran into ME not me running into them). And then I ended the call and said I had to go.

So yeah... again with the positive I guess. She started out making sure I knew she didn't ask my S to give me the phone, but then proceeded to have a 10 minute phone conversation. Just more confusion... whatever.

[2thepoint]

small steps, small steps......

[workinghardguy]

I thought my Facebook status was applicable to many of us here on these boards so I thought I'd share...

"Have patience with all things, but chiefly have patience with yourself. Do not lose courage in considering you own imperfections, but instantly set about remedying them - every day begin the task anew." - St. Francis de Sales

Of course... being a Catholic saint he really didn't have direct experience with a WAS... so maybe he would've added "and extra patience with your wayward spouse"

[Ctflor]

I've had to reflect that it was only five days ago when she said we would be split up by June. It's ridiculous to expect that to change in five days.

I go through something similar with my h. He would literally tell me he wants to stay then turn around and tell me "but i want my freedom". I have felt jerked back and forth. For the entire month after bd, he would not even say he wanted to stay...it was constant talk anout him getting his own place. So in my situation it has been a progression from.."im getting my own place/im not sure if im leaving/just want freedom and to be in love" to the most recent..."im not leaving, im staying"

Last month it was "i dont want to go but i am not happy"

Now that h has announced he is not leaving...so far there have been no words of leaving, being unhappy, etc. i worry that i may hear that again.

All i can say is, they are so confused...their feelings and behavior doesnt always match up. H would act happy at times, laugh, smile...and there would be brief emergence from the tunnel...then BAM....he was talking about how he may need to go. Within the same day. And i would be thinking...what? You have been in a great mood, we are laughing?.having fun....and then he would just ruin it. I could not understand it then.

I know its hard....but try to not analyze everything...every word, facial expression, or the tone of voice. Their confusion will drive you crazy. And you know...ever since bd, ever since discovery of ow, i became hypersensitive to h and his behavior.

Yesterday h put his arms around me and looked into my eyes and said...he was feeling happy. That is the first time in a long time i have heard my h say that. But later that night he snapped at me when i asked him a couple mundane questions about bills. Now see, before db, i would have went off...it would have led to me acting childish and engaging in a discussion about his tone. My small 180 was to drop it. Not bring up small things, i ask myself...is it worth it?

The thing i was doing with h before he announced he was staying was...

Gal, best i can
Stop acting clingy
Stop discussing every single thing
Stop watching his every move, pull back a little without pulling back so much that im distant
No over analyze his behavior to him, as in asking questions like..why are you so quiet, whats wrong with you...is everything ok? This drove him crazy.
I totally began acting calm, projecting a sense of calm. He responded to this and continues to...
Let little niggling things go..
Dont criticize for things he slacked off in...ie' help with chores, time with d.
Give space
Be patient
Try to be understanding more often than not
And the hardest ever....have no expectations

[sandi2]

This is the frustrating part. You have a really good day, feel like your clicking again, feel upbeat and then wham! you get pulled right back.

There have been so many LBH's who say the same thing. I believe it may have something to do with how the male is wired. Kind of like shopping. The female may look at clothing for half a day, and not buy anything. The male knows what he's going to the store to purchase, so he goes in there and gets a shirt and he's done.

Look at how men date before marriage. He woos the female until she M's him, then he stops working on their R (being romantice, etc.) b/c he has conquered the prize. He has captured his "prey" (so to speak) and in his mind....the work is finished. It's almost like his check list. Got the car...check, got the degree....check, got the wife...check. I think many LBH's looks at his WAW in the same way as he does everything else. He put forth effort but then is frustrated b/c he can't win this "battle" and go on with his life. This entire business of breaking up the M is a nuisance and he just wants to return to his everyday life he had before. Even when you know that there has been a small positive action between you and W, you do not have that sense of being "complete" and you can't rest until she is ready to R.

I believe that is why we see some former LBH's returning to the board. The majority of those men will say that they got "lazy" again and fell back into old patterns. I think you would do the same thing if your W told you today she was ready to R. You would step right back into old behavior. I say that b/c it takes time to change our old patterns, bad behavior, bad personality traits, etc. No matter how much you desire M to survive, that doesn't automatically put your new changes in concrete.

Let me add this....even when you see positive moments, or even days, that does not mean she has snapped out of the fog. She is still a WAW. Every word & deed between the two of you does not change her status of WAW. You have to realize that no matter how great the conversation may be, she will continue to behave like a WAW....because that is what she is! You are seeking a reaction from her that will tell you she's back to being her old self again. That's what sets you up to experience this frustration time after time.

How long this may continue is something we don't know. Is there hope for your M? Absolutely! But I can tell you this much....she knows you better than anybody else. When you contact to her to "remind" her of her obligations....she knows the root of that contact. You can use your son as the excuse, and you can work ten minutes on how you can word the message, even throw some humor into it....but she knows.

IMHO, until you get your focus off her and onto a life for you that doesn't include her......Nothing is going to work out. You have to be unavailable. You have to stop being her babysitter, her secretary, housekeeper, and her parent. Those are not people she would find sexually attractive and want to sleep with.

Let me ask you this question. Do you want to be with a woman who doesn't love you? Do you want to spend your free time with a person who doesn't respect you, appreciate you, or at least "likes" you? Think about it.

I hope you won't take what I'm saying in the wrong way. I realize you are trying very hard.

Remember, it's all in the attutde!

[Rick1963]

Sandi your description of a male"s behavior is spot on. I asked myself the same. Do I want to be with someone who no longer loves me? The answer is No.Latetly been feeling like that and feeling better. I have something to offer truly I have made some changes and feel great. Many have asked if my W is having an A and I say dunno. I would have made myself sick before now I have no emTions thinking that it is possible? Detaching really helps

[In_Shock]

wow Sandi -- this is so true: IMHO, until you get your focus off her and onto a life for you that doesn't include her......Nothing is going to work out. You have to be unavailable. You have to stop being her babysitter, her secretary, housekeeper, and her parent. Those are not people she would find sexually attractive and want to sleep with.

I needed to read that as well. My W has told me I try too hard, that she doesn't need a servant, a mom, etc..... Hmmm... I too need to become unavailable. Why is this all so hard????? I think we LBS think too much and try too hard across the board.

I did get a chuckle WHG when you said something about how if they knew how much energy we put into communication with them they'd come back out of sheer amazement. LMAO. That was hilarious to me for some reason!!