new to this..

[learning2listen]

ok so i think i may have made some headway, rather then "attacking" him, I simply just called and lm for him to call me..he called back and said he was sorry he missed my call, said he was at the dentist..we exchanged nice how are yous and then before i could say anything he volunteered he was planning on calling me today to tell me the plan with d..I said I knew and it sounded great, and hoped they had a nice visit..he then asked me to lunch..I am excited and scared! this is the first real step forward I have seen in 2 months. What do i do? what do we talk about? any advice?

[25yearsmlc]

be warm and receptive and open to what he says. It's not your job to do the talking but to listen and gather data.

Don't judge it, and if he asks you something you are afraid to answer, tell him you need time to think it over.

No rush to decide anything. Hear what he says and do not "react" to it or read into it negatively. If you are not sure you heard him or understood him then recap for him what you think you just heard.

He'll know you are really listening and you'll have more time to think about it.

If he revises things in the m, which he WILL DO, you have 3 possible reactions that do not escalate and still validate and yet not be a doormat.

If he says something that's a bold faced lie or falsehood,

(once I thought my h was lying but my kids reminded me that something had in fact happened so I'm glad I just listened and didn't blow it by calling him a liar. We can forget things too.)

you can say "Wow, I sure don't recall it that way but I'm sorry you were hurt."

If he says something that reflects a flaw in you that you concede is true or partly valid (even if he shares in the problem but isn't admitting it)

you can say "Yes h, if I had it to do over again, I'd do lots of things differently."

that shows you can change--this is KEY--he must believe you can change and that marriage to you could and would be different and better than before...

Rarely, a spouse may truly throw you a curveball AND want a reply. So if he says something that completely flummoxes you and seems to want an answer

you can say "I'm sure there's a great reply to that statement. But it escapes me at the moment."

All these answers are validating, none escalate and all show a different you.

Good luck

[learning2listen]

ok, lunch was great.. we talked, just talked, (he did most of the talking) he really is so funny, and such a great talker. Boy do i miss that.

We did not mention the R at all, we did not talk about us at all, but when we were leaving, he said he would like to do this again, maybe next week, then he referred to "baby steps" question I have now.. what do I do?

I know he noticed that I was really listening, I know he saw change.. as did i see change in him.. boy patients is not something I have ever been good at and it looks like I better get used to it.

[NLW]

Hi l2l,

Just dropping by to say I know what you're going through and I feel for you.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation with my H (see my thread if you have time) and for me, the need to be patient is the key at this stage.

I keep seeing small positive steps forward, but still great wariness on the part of my H. He seems to want to be with me, but then again, he doesn't.

Sometimes it's big things, like asking me out for drinks or coffee, other times it's tiny signs. Most recently, when I asked him what sort of cake he wanted me to buy for his birthday, he said: "Black Forest cake, because that's the one you like". And this was not said in a sarcastic way, but as a nice thoughtful gesture.

But most times, I feel like he's testing me. Waiting for me to go back to my old controlling, judgemental ways. I'm working on myself in this regard. But it's so hard dealing with his withdrawal from us (me and 2 kids).

I need to keep reminding myself that a lot of what he does is probably fuelled by sadness and guilt, and that being with us is just as heart-wrenching for him as not being with him is for me. So, I practice trying to put myself in his shoes and see things without getting too negative.

I don't know how to be patient other than to think back over the last 3months and realise that I've gotten this far without breaking down completely.
So, if I can do 3 hard months, I must be able to do 3 more....and maybe 3 more after that.

Hope it helps to know others are walking with you in this.

Best, NLW

[learning2listen]

Thank you for this, I really feel like he DOES want to repair this relationship, I dont think he would hesitate moving forward with a D if he was sure that was what he wanted.

I just keep telling myself, this is our time to work on ourselves so we can be stronger together and better than ever. the fact is we stopped nurturing "us" and began taking each other forgranted. We both did this, and maybe just maybe he sees that and he is trying to get himself strong for us.

At times I feel like he is reading DR or Db also, so many similar actions on his part, and the term "babysteps" he keeps using it, and its just not something he would have said in the past.

[learning2listen]

I need some advice, after reading more of the DR, Im noticing there are alot of things I am not doing.. I am not initiating any R talks, the last time I said anything, he said he just didnt know.

We do not talk about D, infact other then the very first fight which resulted in him moving out the D word has never been mentioned. It has been over two months and in the begining I tried and tried to get him to open up and he didnt said he needed to be left alone with his morose thoughts.

now here we are in complete limbo, I know nothing but he seems to be planning nothing either, he says his life is kind of boring but he kind of likes the boring. And yet he talks about baby steps? yesterdays lunch was good, but I know I will have no reason to hear from him again until next week. What do I do? I love this man, and I actually agree with what I think were some of the problems.. but limbo is quite litterally pulling the life from me. I honestly cant imagine us not working through this. We have faced huge issues together and overcame them. But I feel like I need to re-invent the wheel? I just need some form of feedback.. am I missing it?

[workinghardguy]

Welcome to limboland young Padawan (and I can say that because I have a whole extra month in this s*it than you)

The rules are you don't get to ask for feedback because that's pursuing. Not to mention if you ask you'll spook him and then the feedback you get will probably be negative even though that may not be how he's truly feeling. Seem sort of mixed up? It is.

The only feedback that you can really hope for is through his actions. Words are words... they are crafty and malleable... we can choose them carefully and splice them a thousand ways.

Actions are different. They require both effort to execute and thought to happen. To me the best kind of actions are the unplanned ones... the ones where I know my W doesn't have time to think it through. Like when she blushed and thanked me last night for a comment about her appearance. She didn't have time to manipulate that like she would a sentence.

So the lunches are feedback. The not talking about D is feedback.

My W wants us to split up. But, she's willing to wait until our debts are caught up next June. That's feedback. It's feedback that she's unhappy, but not so unhappy that I need to move out NOW. She doesn't know if she wants to separate or divorce... that's feedback - she's confused. She doesn't want to rely on me for anything, but yet still asks me to handle all the household finances and money management. That's feedback that apparently she is willing to rely on me for some things.

As far as your desperation to have this work... he can probably smell it. You have to find a way to grow past it. This whole process is almost Zen-like... it doesn't really work until you almost stop worrying about whether it will work. You get your own life and figure out how to do this without him. Then, if it works, he comes back because you don't need him.

Yeah, I know, sounds backwards and crazy... such is our lot in life right now!

[NLW]

l2l, WHG,
Ah, limbo land.

My prob with it is that I'm still constantly trying to read H's actions as signs of progress. Seems at odds with detaching and getting on with my own life. But then, DR says one must attend closely to the effects of one's changes to gauge whether they're working.

But, like l2l, I only have his actions to go by. There has been no D talk from him, he still hasn't told the kids anything (although he keeps saying he should, but doesn't want to have the conversation), he is not planning any more permanent living arrangement than sleeping in a spare room at a mate's house. Just needs to be alone and says he feels confused.

So, l2l, I feel for what you are going through, and it really helps to read about your attempts to deal with it.

And WHG, you are so right. I know H can smell my desperation to have this work, and I know that's a big problem. Just got to work out how not to be desperate.....
I keep returning to my new mantra: acceptance, not control.

[learning2listen]

NLW, and WHG,

I do feel that his actions with suggesting lunch are as he has stated "babysteps" but my question is are we taking these steps for the same goal? I have decided that yes we are, I am doing my best not to question, and to accept what he has said and in the last couple of weeks, though the conversations are few, they are good. He told me there is hope and he is just trying to get stronger. For these actions are good, I know he has to see my pain, but for a change I am not giving him a daily play by play, and for that I think he sees my actions. For now this is good.

[workinghardguy]

Reconciling the "detaching" and the "monitoring for progress" is really hard. I talked at length with my DB coach about it today. Best I can explain it is this...

Detaching is about "dropping the rope" and no longer being responsible for your spouse's happiness or unhappiness. It's letting them feel the full effects of life and the consequences (good and bad) of their decisions.

Monitoring for progress is about whether the changes you are implementing are bringing your H closer to you or driving him away. BUT, let's say you make a change and then find that change drives him further away. You get to decide whether to keep that change in place or not.

Let's say, to take something simple and superficial, you always wore a dress but made a change to wearing jeans to try and be less formal and more relaxed. You do this and find that your H reacts negatively and really liked that you were a classy dresser. But you find that you really like the more laid back approach of jeans. You get to decide what to do... while also understanding the consequences. Maybe you go back to being more formal because it doesn't matter that much to you. Maybe it does matter and you stick with the jeans, but then understand you may drive him further away.

Last week I stood up to my wife about how she ignores all three of our kids when she's off socializing. It hurts them and impacts them. They ask where she is, why she doesn't call, etc... Part of my 180 is setting limits and standing up to her.

I don't know yet if it pushed her away or drew her closer. She's been more open and interactive with me since I started standing up for myself. Yet last night she referred to our talk on Sunday as "when you got pissy with me".

At the same time, she called Wednesday when she was out with her friend. And just now she texted me to say she had worked it out to be at S's soccer game tomorrow morning and that she would call our S tonight before bedtime since she's going to a product party.

So part of my detachment is giving up my role of child-soother and peacemaker, and instead letting her feel the full brunt of guilt and responsibility for how she makes her children feel.

I think the fact that she's doing what I asked of her means something... I just wish I could figure out what