What do I do next?

[luvhurts49]

My wife and I were high school sweethearts and have been together for 20 years and married for 4 years. I’m 36, she’s 37, and we have two boys 12 and 3 years old. Every 5 years or so, we have some problems and she ends up moving out (this is the third time).

The first time (11 years ago) was just after our first son was born. If I recall, it was mostly stress related (work and being a mom) and some communication problems. She moved to her dad’s, but after a month or so, she came back.

The second time (6 years ago--each of us moved to our respective parent’s house), she got tired of me not being able to open up to her emotionally and her feeling as though I don’t respect her. After 7 months apart and me working on being more open, respectful, and emotionally available, we got back together. Everything from here was great. After a year of dating again, we bought our first house together and a year after that, we finally got married, and a year after than, we had our second son.

3 years after our last son was born, my wife moved out and into her dad’s house (August 2011). She has told me that she cares deeply for me (never says that she loves me), she is visibly angry with me, she shows little if any emotion, is clearly unhappy, and is telling me that we have done this too many times, that things never change, that she’s not doing this any more, and that she’s not coming back. She has complained that she doesn’t like that I always have to be right, that I put myself before her, and that I don’t respect her opinions.

I have tried to refute her arguments by stating that things have changed (every change I made is still changed to this day). While I have known that I do have a problem with always being right, that I put myself before her, and that I don’t always respect her opinions, I didn’t realize just how much it really bothered her until recently. Now I am willing to work on these problems and even started going to a counselor (by myself) and have even asked my family and closest friends to help me with these problems. Another interesting fact to mention is when we have had rational conversations, I’ve mentioned that we need to do more things together, that we need to talk more, etc and she is involved in the conversation and even offers suggestions, but the next day or two later, she pulls back and starts saying that she isn’t doing this anymore and she isn’t coming back.

During these last 2 months, I have been doing the normal wrong things like begging, pleading, negotiating, and trying to convince her that we can get through this and make things better, but all it has done in reassure her decision to leave. I know many people will think that there is another man involved (as did I at first), but I am convinced that there isn’t.

While she has mentioned divorce, she told me (and other family and friends) that she has not filed any paperwork and she is not rushing into anything. I have asked her how much time I have and her response is always that she doesn’t know. I have simply told her that we have put 20 years into this relationship and 4 years into this marriage and I am not willing to give up--not on her, not on our kids, and certainly not on our marriage. We have overcome so many obstacles over the years and this is just another obstacle that we have to work through together. I told her that from this point on, I will give her the time and space that she needs to figure things out and also during this time, I will work on myself and my problems.

It has been a week and a half since our last talk and being away from her, not talking or touching her, has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do. We will continue to have the kids 50/50, so I still do see her a couple times a week but only for a minute or two. I don’t say anything except hello, goodbye, and thank you unless there is an issue with one of the kids. I don’t hug her goodbye or tell her that I love her, I just drop off the kids or I just take the kids inside and say goodbye and drive safely. I do not start any conversations and/or arguments and try to put on my best happy face I can muster. I don’t know what else to do.

I’m looking for advice and/or reassurance that I’m doing the right things. I have already read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and I am currently reading Divorce Busting. I am seeing a counselor, trying to get out more often with friends (which is hard), trying to take care of myself (little bit of exercise), and trying to be the best dad I can be for my kids all the while trying to fix my own problems.

I should also mention, aside from telling me that she is not doing this any more and that she’s not coming back, she has said some other mean things to me like I’m trying to manipulate her and the kids (which I’m not), that she thinks that I’m trying to take the kids away from her and that I’m going to try and screw her over (again, I’m not). Does she just say these things to get me all riled up and to try and start an argument, or does she really think that she means them?

Needless to say, I am hurt, confused, depressed, and sometimes I feel like giving up. And while I have lost 25 to 30 pounds because I can’t eat or sleep, she has lost at least 15 or 20 pounds during this same time and she is looking really good and is driving me crazy that I can’t be with her. She has definitely closed off her heart (almost no emotion except anger) and is only thinking of herself. Friends have also commented that when she has talked to them, that she has a lost expression and doesn’t seem like herself.

I have clung onto a few nuggets that give me hope--she has not yet filed for divorce, her mailing address hasn’t changed, she doesn’t sleep well at night (by her own admission), and while at work all she can think about is our situation (again by her own admission). Am I grabbing at straws here? But I also know that over the past few weeks, she has been appearing happier around the kids that she was when this all started. Does this mean anything?

Any help from this forum will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[dbmod]

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[LITB]

LH49....welcome to the best place nobody wants to be at, but glad they have found.

It seems to me that you are on the right path. One of the first things I want to say after reading your post, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. A lot of what you posted is standard WAW script. The more you read into what she says and does will create questions (the whys) and make you crazy. You will not get any answers and if you do, they most likely will be answers you don't want to hear.

Let's discuss the changes that you mentioned about yourself. That is great btw. Hopefully they are changes that are genuine and not just to win your W back. What are these changes (180's) that you have made or are working on that will eliminate her complaints?

You also mentioned that you try to be happy around her(feels impossible I know). Are you trying to get a life(GAL) to make yourself happy and get away from your sitch? Things that you never had the opportunity to do, but wanted to.

Another suggestion is to read the Divorce Remedy (DR). It is the updated version to Divorce Busting (DB).

Hang in there and post often. You will be on full moderation at the beginning, but the more you post, the faster moderation will be lifted.

[Accuray]

LH49,

Welcome, sorry you are here. There are some good things in your post above:

1) You W has a pattern of leaving *and returning*
2) There is no OM
3) Your W is telling you explicitly what's wrong

So far, you've been doing all the typical intuitive things that just don't work (begging, pleading, arguing, trying to convince her she's making a mistake, and pursuing). Here's the thing, all those behaviors are the natural way to respond to this situation, and none of them will work, it's counter-intuitive.

Your W is telling you that you always have to be right, that you don't respect her, that you manipulate her, etc. She feels that she's living in your shadow and you are controlling her (or trying to). She wants freedom! Then, when she leaves you and explains why, you "tried to refute her arguments by stating that things have changed". When you did that, you *demonstrated* that things have not changed. You tried to dismiss her position and assert your own. HER perception is your reality, not yours.

So here are some suggestions, your W feels controlled and is pulling away to get some freedom. Each step that you take to pursue her, will lead her to take another step away from you, because your pursuit threatens to erase her freedom. The farther you drive her away emotionally with your pursuit, the more ground you will need to recover, inch by painful inch. Your primary goal right now is to stabilize the situation and not chase her farther away. The way you do that is by pulling back yourself! (Give space) If she takes a step right, and you take a step right, she will take another step right to get away.

If she takes a step right, and you take a step LEFT, she will stay where she is. If you take another step left, she MAY start taking small steps back toward you.

You must immediately read "Divorce Busting" and "The Divorce Remedy". You must stop discussing your relationship with your wife at all. You must do nothing to pursue her. You need to back away, give her the space she wants, and work on addressing the issues that bother her. You must PROVE your changes are real in action, not with words, and you must be CONSISTENT. Each time you backslide, it will erase your prior gains.

LH49, your W has come to resent you. If you make her feel badly in any way, she will resent you more. You make her feel badly if you dismiss what she says, if you argue with her, etc. You also make her feel badly if you are sad around her, and make her believe she has power over your happiness, she doesn't want that responsibility right now. You need to be OK with you, and act as if you don't *need* her. You can want her, and it can be nice if she comes around, but if she doesn't that's OK too. Each thing you do right now needs to be calculated against the yardstick of "will this make my W resent me". If the answer is yes, don't do it! That even includes looking sad when she's around.

All of this is extremely hard to do. Giving space in a time of crisis goes against ever fiber of our being, but you MUST do it, it's the only thing that has a track record of working.

Good luck LH49!

Accuray

[luvhurts49]

I appreciate the advice Accuray. I'm trying to step back and let her have some space--the last thing I want to do is push her further away. I feel like the longer I can push off a D, the better chance we have.

Unfortunately, I don't have many friends so I don't get much of an opportunity to get out as much as I'd like. Usually getting out for me is just going over to a friends house and bullsh!ting for a few hours. Sadly, winter is coming so I can't exactly spend a whole lot of time doing outside projects to occupy my time.

During this time I am trying to work on me. I see some traits in myself that I don't like and I am beginning to see them in my oldest son as well. I am seeing a IC, so hopefully between myself and my IC, I can better understand on how to change these traits.

See, I don't like always being right (although I usually am--counter productive isn't it?), but I have been working it. When somebody starts to say something that I don't agree with, I just shut my hole and try to let it go. Btw, if anyone else is like me in this regard, shutting up and letting someone else be right is really hard to do.

Another problem I have is listening attentively--meaning I have been trying to listen better without cutting the other person off or plainly disregarding what it is they are saying and trying not to control a conversation by not letting the other person speak. I knew I had a problem with this, but until recently, I never really understood just how big of a problem it is.

I'm sure I have more problems than these, but these are the biggest ones and I just need to take it one step at a time I guess. After having your life revolve around the same woman for so many years, it is so hard to not be a part of her life every day and not being able to spend time with my kids every day kills me.

I appreciate the support guys and I hope to give updates often when time permits.

[luvhurts49]

Just to give an update on what has transpired the last few days. The W texted me the other day wanting to know if I wanted to have pizza with her and the kids at my place. Didn't know if I should or not, but did so anyway. She stayed for a couple hours and everything seemed to go okay—ate pizza, kids played around, talked about everyday stuff (work, kids, etc.). We didn't talk about our R or anything regarding out sitch. I tried to look happy and mostly cheerful around her (hard to do when your miserable). I let her speak without interrupting her and tried to maintain eye contact so she knew that I was paying attention.

I couldn't help but to notice that my W looks depressed and rarely did she smile and when she did, it almost looked fake. She did mentioned however, that she doesn't sleep very well and that she might get 4 hours (not always in a row) of sleep a night. I told her that I understood that, that I don't sleep well either. Now I didn't tell her that I have yet to sleep in our bed since she left and it would be a godsend if I could even get 4 hours of sleep a night.

When she went to leave, I walked her and the kids out and I gave my kids a hug, told them ILY, and put them in the car. I stood there for a moment waiting for her to get in the car. She just kinda stood there, with the door open, like she was waiting for me to give her a hug or something, but I didn't. I just told her to have a goodnight and to drive safe. It killed me not giving her a hug or telling her ILY.

I wish we could have more days like this. We got along well, had good conversation, and we got to spend some time with each other and the kids. I could clearly see that she is depressed and this whole situation is bothering her just as much as it bothers me. I would love to ask her to do that again, but I know that I have to sit back and let her drive the bus and make the moves for now.

[JustStunned]

LH49 here is a copy of the 37 rules apply these in addtion to the suggestions for LITB and Accuracy.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives becausehe/she is hurting and scared.

33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[luvhurts49]

Well, got another bomb dropped on me today. I found out that W filed for D of 10/20/11. I asked W why she even bothered to ask about coming over that night with the kids to eat pizza. She said that is was to find out if anything had changed and she said it had--that it didn't feel like her home anymore and all the pictures were taken down. I said that I took the family pictures down because every time I walked passed them, it was make me sad, but I did not take any pictures down that were of just our kids though.

She continued with her saying that I have been manipulating her, that she couldn't trust me, and that I've been hiding things from her. I asked her how I was manipulating her, what she couldn't trust me with, or what it is that I have been hiding. She asked if I had seen a lawyer and I told her I had, but not until after she saw one and I told her, just as I have told her before, that I did not file or sign anything, that I only went for information. She never did answer how I was manipulating her.

Now I have the kids for the weekend and it is so hard to remain strong around them. I just want to hold both of them and just cry cause it hurts so bad. My oldest knows something in wrong and begged me to tell him so I did. I simply told him that his mom has filed for D, but I'm not done fighting for us yet--I'm just done fighting for today.

Now I just have to figure out what to do next...

[Accuray]

That list should really be a sticky at the top of the forum

[luvhurts49]

Had a few hours to think about things a bit--nope, still don't like it. I just have a hard time thinking that my W won't be my W much longer--that the woman that I've dedicated my life to won't be there anymore. Honestly, I don't know how others have ever gone through this without driving themselves crazy.