25 thanks for the support. your advice is always so wise and right on the money! I agree with you that getting rid of the anger is PARAMOUNT. Regardless of what happens in my R with H, I have to do it for ME. The way I see it, there are two challenges i have to overcome right now:
a) the anger related to the current situation and OW. The way I see it, no matter what, I have to make those triggers not affect me. I have been unsuccessful so far, and I hope that detachment will help. I also believe that physical distance and clear boundaries with H will also help me get stronger. BUT H refuses to work on a schedule with me since the current arrangement of coming and going suits him just fine.
After much soul-searching I realize that this open house policy is NOT working for me - it's not improving our R as I wished for, - I have no free time for myself (key to GAL), - it makes me angry to see how he takes advantage of the sit, - and most importantly, is NOT good for the kids.
I talked to a priest today to get a diff. POV regarding this issue and to try to find some internal peace. He said that by having H come and go as he pleases, and me treating him as my husband when he is in the house, not only he gets the best of both worlds, but we are giving the kids the wrong message. They see us together and they process this as what their reality is and it gives them hope that we will be a unified family. BUT, that is not our reality, since H is determined to divorce, and we should not be giving false hope to the children. In addition, there is no stability for them when there is no set routine for when they get to see their dad.
Ultimately, he said that at this point, I need to do everything in my power to give my children stability. They come first now. So defining a set visitation schedule is key.
How do I accomplish this? At this point and after trying everything, the only way I see to force him would be to file for legal separation or D. Any other suggestions are very much welcome and will be greatly appreciated...
The other aspect of bringing a stable home to my kids is exactly what you mention - finances...I have decided not to go back to work immediately a) for the kids - they need at least one parent present b) also in case he wants to use that against me in a D settlement...
I also agree with you that I will eventually need to go back to work and it will have to be in a diff. industry (In the entertainment industry, 10 to 12-hour days are the norm and I simply cannot do that with 3 kids under the age of 4.) Ideally I'd like a job where I can work from 9 - 3, so I have to start looking for anything that will give me those hours.
I will also need to let our nanny go very soon (like this week or the next) now that I have made the determination of not going back to work until at least January. We obviously cannot afford her if I am not presently working.
Finally, we need to get our spending and expenses under control. H also refuses to work with me on this, (for obvious reasons), so the way it looks right now, filing for legal separation is the only way to protect my kids. Like you said, he might gets crazy with the credit cards...
I don't know much about legal separation in California. (When I saw the lawyer we talked about collaborative divorce, but I am not sure if H will be that cooperative at this point.) So I will now try to learn more about legal separation to see if that will protect me financially, without having to file for D myself.
b) The second aspect of dealing and losing my anger relates to my current situation.
I totally get what you say of my anger validating H's reasons for leaving. He can push my buttons, I fall for it and he gets a free pass to blame everything on me. I see that clearly and I understand that needs to stop NOW.
I know in my heart I now need to look beyond my hopes for reconciliation, knowing that H does not want ANY part of it right now.
As you said, it will take A LONG time before his other R collapses (if it ever does) and I have to detach and become a better person for me and my kids. I think I have finally accepted that.
I know I am currently dealing with a lot, but not only for my M, but for me and my kids, I need to get rid of the anger to be happy and healthy - that is the only way to grow as a person and be a good mother.
Up to now, I have been reading a lot and doing work on my own and I believe I have improved a lot and found forgiveness for a lot of things that hurt me during my marriage, but I am also humble enough to accept when something is bigger than me, and given my situation, it is probably wiser to seek outside help now. So I will be going to a counselor (and giving up my DB coach, since I cannot afford both).
Regarding H and R problems pre-separation, I will do a diff. posting re. that and answering your specific questions...
more to come and thanks again!
((( )))
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
before I read any further, look at MY signature block.
YES you can file for legal sep in California and to an extent it protects assets in both names....thanks to my filing that, (which did NOT go over well with h at the time btw) but
though we lost a fortune with the whole Alaskan adventure/fiasco, at least our house couldn't be used as collateral for more "Investments" with his heroes'...
so about a year ago h said "good thing WE didn't mortgage the house for those guys..."
b/c he literally does not recall why "we" couldn't do so...I said, "yeah, good thing."
go figure.
I'll go read the rest now...
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I was doing a personal review of my part and responsibility in the demise of my marriage. I find that seeing things objectively helps me get rid of resentment and helps me see what I need to work on.
H and I were together for a long time before getting married and we got along fine. We were in the "honeymoon period" for a while, we became best friends and even dated long-distance for some time.
Yet, from the beginning, our M was tumultuous due to a lot of reasons.
1) My H has been the only serious R I have ever had, so I brought A LOT of inexperience to the marriage.
2) We never lived together pre-marriage. At least for me, learning to live together and compromising was a RUDE awakening to married life. For most of our marriage, I felt the need to get my way. When I didn't, I would get upset. I realize now how childish and selfish I was and how that was something I was used to... I was very pampered by my parents as a child. Now I understand how crucial compromise is to ANY R.
3) Our backgrounds and the way we dealt with conflict could have not been any more different: - I am the last of four and was used to getting my way; compromise was not a common word in my vocabulary. So needless to say, all that came with me to the marriage.
- I also come from a latin family and culture, where arguing and raising your voice is common-place. People are used to speaking their minds all the time and not holding back that much. I thought this was normal... Now I see that it is not a healthy way to communicate.
On the other hand, my H comes from a divorced household. His dad was an abusive alcoholic for many years before his mom left him when H was a teenager. As the youngest of 6, H got sheltered by older siblings to keep him away of all the chaos. Once his dad left, as a family, they developed a dynamic of never raising their voices, and avoiding conflict and confrontation. Issues are never brought up to the surface and hardly ever resolved.
I value open communication and don't mind confrontation. My H values peace, conflict-avoidance and raising the voice is a definite NO NO. I never really respected what he valued and avoided these things that triggered him. Now I know how detrimental they are for our M and how averse my H is to them.
4) We had financial issues from the beginning. - I brought a lot of debt to the marriage. (I paid my own way thru college and had thousands of dollars in debt from student loans.) In addition, I got laid off shortly after we got married. I felt pressure from H from the start. He would constantly ask me when I would get a job, complain about finances, etc. I felt extremely guilty for his stress and our sitch, so I always felt I had to be at least an equal provider in our marriage.
- My line of work in the entertainment industry meant a lot of sacrifices in terms of time - I was working AT LEAST 12 hrs. a day and our marriage suffered tremendously for it. I always felt my hard work was a way of showing my love and commitment and didn't realize how much I abandoned my H. Looking back, I realize this was NOT one of his love languages. I was NOT happy with my job, but I always felt pressured to continue since I made a very good living and I always believed finances were so important for H. I felt trapped and tried to express this to H, but I felt he never heard me. He said he would support me in whatever I decided to to, while at the same time expressing his concerns re. finances... I was also fearful that I would not find anything else that would provide such large income. And I also got complacent - I am a person who values stability and has a great fear of change and the unknown. I now know I should have done more to get out of that unhappy situation and not let resentment accumulate.
5) I felt abandoned by H - H and I always dreamed of having our own business. After all, we were just as smart as other people who succeeded financially... We finally decided to pursue a business in Real Estate together. I saw this as my way out from my own bad work sitch. as well. I was so hopeful. Shortly after I got pregnant with D4, H one day just announced that he was going to pursue his own business idea - judgement recovery. - I was crushed. I felt that he unilaterally abandoned our joint plans to open a business together, that he disregarded me completely, our dreams and our plans as a team. - I not only felt further trapped in my crappy work sitch, but now found a new pressure of having to support our household while he got his business going - and I was pregnant... That business never took off, I was the sole provider for two years, and we ended up borrowing a lot of money from our line of credit to keep above water. - I don't think I ever got over this - I tried to explain how hurt I was to H, but he never really completely got how abandoned and betrayed I felt by all of this. I just accumulated more resentment towards him. I should have just forgiven and moved on and found out my own way of dealing with my feelings of entrapment. In a way, I think I was bitter he found his own gig and I didn't...
6) Our intimate life was never that fulfilling for me and eventually also for H - I am the kind of person that cannot easily get intimate if there are unsolved issues. I just cannot pretend everything is right and have a good time in bed. - I was also very inexperienced sexually when we got married, had not had that many partners and I never knew how to communicate my needs and wants. I always just expected H to either figure them out on his own, or that he should know them... Obviously this did NOT work out. - Things started suffering right away and I just accepted it, assuming that this is what people talked about - once married, intimacy fades... So I settled and resigned. I love my H, so I always tried to make him happy in bed, but you cannot just keep this frustration inside and I accumulated a lot of resentment. - We grew farther and farther apart, I never initiated sex, which my H resented and the frequency diminished as time passed - Eventually we both kind of gave up on having a healthy and fulfilling sex life and settled for very little - I now know I am responsible of my own happiness and sexual fulfillment - It is my responsiblity to make sure things work for me and that my H knows what I need. I wish nothing more than have an opportunity to fix this aspect of our marriage... I just don't know that I will ever have another chance with my H
Ultimately my resentment permeated all aspects of our R. My H tried for many years to make things better, to please me, to resolve conflict (with his family background, he was always trying to please others...)
He also is a person that needs LOTS of attention, encouragement and attention and I fell short in providing that. I always thought because he was frail and vulnerable, that he wanted me to be strong for both. I also crave and need lots of physical affection and affection, but I felt like being vulnerable and showing what I needed made me weaker and would undermine our R.
Once kids came along, things got more and more complicated. The routine, both settling, dealing with kids, financial pressures, etc., made us grow apart more. When H left he said he tried to reach me, but I was just not available and open to hearing him, until he gave up and had enough. That's what happened this past December when he left.
I agree with his assessment- I never wanted to accept I had a problem. I always thought we should be able to solve our problems together and never looked at myself individually. I was not open and humble enough to look in the mirror until I hit my bottom. It took him leaving to really understand the depth of our problems, the dysfunction in our M and the dispair and hurt my H had lived with for many years.
Granted - I also felt a lot of hurt, dispair and abandonment, but H kept trying. I think that little by little we both built a wall until we were not able to communicate with each other and eventually he just gave up.
As you can see, I have A LOT of responsiblity in the demise of my M. I take full responsibility and have identified my failures. I am willing to work on fixing everything, if just given the chance, but now it might be too late.
H says he cannot see us ever fixing our problems, he never wants to put himself on the line to be hurt again. That he just cannot live in constant fear of my reactions and my anger and that when he left he felt a huge weight lifted off his shoulders. He says he misses the kids, but has not missed our R at all. (He has always been a great dad and adores his kids. That is why it is so painful to see him so detached from his kids now...)
He said that once he left, he decided to actively look for someone to love him and has now found her. He is not willing to give our R another chance, too many problems, too much work and he doesn't want to risk losing OW. She loves him, she appreciates him and she loves life. And he just has no interest in giving that up and take a leap of faith for a R he feels is beyond repair.
He said if I had realized all this two years ago, we might have had a chance, but now it's just too late for us. He wants me to find happiness and for us to be friends and raise our kids in peace. Ideally for him, we would all get along (and go to soccer games together, where OW and I could be cordial to each other).
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
that's a lot of BRAVE introspective work you have done. I mean, I'm impressed.
And moved.
And a bit encouraged about what he said towards the end. It means that he DOES acknowledge that you can change...
this is crucial. If you can show consistency in the changes you make and LOSE that anger...and GAL
(for YOU especially but also for your kids to see b/c they are watching and need to know what strong people do when they suffer blows to their heart, for they will face them too. They need to know that yes you can feel pain but it's not fatal and it's not eternal..)
THEN when the time comes for him and OW to discover that not all is well and not all is fine and smooth
and that indeed HE will have to do work in that R too
....and with her kids too...
then he's very likely to revisit the issue of reconciling with you.
At least that's what I believe.
Keep doing YOUR work b/c no matter what, you will be a better woman when you come out of this on the other side and your future r's with him
or anyone else for that matter, will greatly improve.
That's a valuable legacy for your kids to see.
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thanks 25. I have been doing better with my kids, personal life and social life. Everything, except H...
I wish I had better news to report, but we have had a couple of rough weeks since our conversation on 10/4 where I begged and pleaded. I felt so blatantly and categorically rejected that day. I don't think I had ever begged anyone like that. I had never let my guard down so much and put myself on the line like that. (One of my defects is that I am too proud sometimes) And H was so clear about there being absolutely no chance for us. He was so clear about being so happy with OW...
It's been rough because I again masked my hurt in anger and the negative cycle of arguing and blaming each other has come back. We have been fighting constantly for almost two weeks and I have also been rough on myself - going back to that place of not forgiving myself. How could I have been so selfish and blind and in denial to let our R get to the point where H just gave up and walked away, etc...
It's my personal opinion and I don't want to stir any controversy, but in these boards, we all empathize with each other, and we, the left behind spouses can sometimes adopt a victim attitude. I know I have MANY times. How could he do this, when we had just bought a house and I had just got pregnant? How could he just walk away and give up on our R and family like that, etc...
The truth is that in a way, his leaving was what finally forced me to see my mistakes. I felt hurt and betrayed and abandoned and now I want to fix our problems and M and cannot believe he doesn't want to. I am forced to GAL and focus on myself and will most likely eventually move on and end up resigning or being ok with losing him, once I heal. But the reality is that all of this happened to HIM BEFORE he left...
He wanted to fix our problems and I wouldn't see and want to do it. He felt hurt and abandoned. He could not believe I could be so cruel and selfish. Until one day he finally gave up, resigned to lose the R and moved on. So he left me and he started to GAL. And now - he is happy with OW. He has found someone that appreciates him and that he can have a healthy R with - all the things we tell each other in these boards that we will someday achieve once we work on ourselves and heal.
All these thoughts have been in my mind these last two weeks and they take me to that ugly place where I am hard on myself and cannot forgive myself. How could I have messed up so badly, that I just could not see the damage I was doing and now I have lost the most important R in my life...
I have been looking back at these 10 months since H left and at first I could see all his anger towards me. Then I saw him being torn, depressed, isolated... Now, he seems happy, he has truly moved on and he is treating me like just a friendly acquaintance and wants to keep it that way for the sake of our kids. There is no more guilt on his part. He is happy with his life.
When we have argued these past two weeks, he has reminded me how bad he wants the D, yet has not filed. On two occasions he gave me a reason for it. First time - cause he was waiting for me to get back to work (about a month ago). Second time, just last week, cause he is afraid of me. He wants to do it when we are getting along, he wants an amicable D, and he is afraid of my reaction and that I will get vindictive.
I don't know what to believe. Everyone has been pressuring me now for months to file, to protect myself, to take the first step before he gets crazy or stupid and spends the only $ we have left from our 401k. That his financial interests are no longer the same as mine (given that he is spending $ on OW, rather than buckle up, and stop spending for benefit of our family). He says that it will be sad if I give lawyers our children's money...
I don't know if he's trying to give me a guilt trip or not, but I want to believe him when he says he has only our children's best interest in mind and wants to go thru mediation for our D.
I don't want to doubt him and he seems genuinely hurt that I don't trust him re. finances. I know if I hire a lawyer and file for Separation or Divorce, he will not forgive me and things will get ugly. On the other hand, what if I believe him that we can do this amicably thru a mediator and he gets crazy and spends the little we have left on OW or hides it away from me?
I also think that he will never willingly give me the monthly amount that the Lawyer said I am entitled to by law. In CA there is a formula to figure this out and the numbers are high (we have three kids and he makes twice as much as I do). Either H has no clue how much this is OR, He knows perfectly well how much it is and that is why he doesn't want to hire lawyers - hoping that I will accept less in mediation? This is the thought I DON"T want to believe, but that everyone claims is real.
It's so hard when everyone gives you their opinion. And most people that talk to me - all except my best friend- think he is GONE forever and that I need to file and get this over with, since he is not doing so.
Everyone just tells me I am enabling him and he is having his cake and eating it too. Everyone tells me to ask myself why he hasn't filed since he is so set on the D...
And so I question if I am doing the right thing for my children or being selfish for not wanting to fight with him re. divorce and finances...
These are also some of the thoughts that have taken me to such an ugly place these past two weeks. We have argued so much, that I think we both feel we were back to zero - to that nasty place we were right before he left. All the goodwill created in months is gone. And as we have discussed before, he justifies in his actions due to my behavior. And I can honestly say, rightly so. He cannot see any permanent changes in me, so why wouldn't he think our R is impossible to fix?
But I am finally getting out of this funk. I got up and started again, working on being friendly detached with H. No arguments in the last 4 days and we even have agreed to a visitation schedule. That is huge. We will see how that goes... I am no longer angry when I see him and I have started seeing a new Counselor - someone who specializes in anger management.
We are also now dealing with the financial logistics of our short-sale and the repercussions of our credit taking a hit and our eventual divorce. H suggested I opened my own bank account and applied for my own credit card (ouch). Did that yesterday.
So the realities of my new life are here and I don't know if I should stay still or make a move at this point. I feel like limbo has been detrimental to me and good for H. Like I said, he definitely looks happy and in a better place and I am the one who has regressed in the last few weeks...
The only thing I know for sure, is that I am not ready to file for anything today. I will research the mediation process, because I know nothing about it.
I have looked into legal separation, but would need to actually hire a L and pay a retainer to do so. To do that, I would need to be ready to let go of our 401k money, since that is all that is left, and also prepare for ugly situation with H.
Me & H: 44 D7, D6, S3 Together: 20y, M: 17y EA: 11/13/10, Sep: 12/23/10 EA becomes PA: Spring 2011 H filed for D: 09/06/12 D Negotiating began 2/15 OW seemingly gone on 3/15 Still negotiating D
I went through a mediated divorce in California. I had my own separate lawyer on the side, as did my ExH. That was really important as they could give me an objective opinion on what I might expect and whether the things we discussed in mediation were fair or appropriate to me.
It really didn't add that much to the overall cost to have the outside lawyer, either - I only needed to see him a few times.
You should see a lawyer to get a clear idea of what you should ask for in mediation - basically, the idea of mediation is to agree on what the courts would probably award anyway, and save the hassle and expense of going to court. Don't let your ex use it to bully you into an unfavorable settlement - go in armed with information.
Here in California, you're right, the alimony and child support are pretty standard calculations usually.
Find out if there will be tax consequences of your short sale.
Legal separation costs as much as divorce in California, really no point to it.
At a certain point, you may need to file just to preserve any assets that are left (like 401ks).
Thanks 25. I have been doing better with my kids, personal life and social life. Everything, except H...
I wish I had better news to report, but we have had a couple of rough weeks since our conversation on 10/4 where I begged and pleaded. I felt so blatantly and categorically rejected that day. I don't think I had ever begged anyone like that. I had never let my guard down so much and put myself on the line like that. (One of my defects is that I am too proud sometimes) And H was so clear about there being absolutely no chance for us. He was so clear about being so happy with OW...
Okay. I hear you. It's good to know that you DID express yourself fully then. I mean you can't say you withheld. That has some value. And while I can assume he thinks he's happier with her and there's no chance for you two, I tend to disbelieve most of what they tell themselves and others. Frankly if he allowed himself to believe your changes were real AND permanent, he MIGHT have to revisit the choices he's made and that takes a whole lot of energy he lacks at the moment.
You can accept his words at face value but know that they are NOT written in stone. I re-read my 2005-06 journals last month. What a bad idea that was..in most ways. I mean I went back to the whole victimhood thing you mention and how I REALLY FELT at the time...thing is, some of my feelings were plain wrong to feel. Not based in reality.
AND some of the feelings I had were real, and true, BUT CHANGED...nothing is written in stone.
It's been rough because I again masked my hurt in anger and the negative cycle of arguing and blaming each other has come back. We have been fighting constantly for almost two weeks and I have also been rough on myself - going back to that place of not forgiving myself. How could I have been so selfish and blind and in denial to let our R get to the point where H just gave up and walked away, etc... it's a scary place to be. Knowing we're all human and flawed and made stupid or selfish mistakes. Welcome to the Humanity club...but you did what you did with the tools you had/lacked then. Now, you know better.
It's my personal opinion and I don't want to stir any controversy, but in these boards, we all empathize with each other, and we, the left behind spouses can sometimes adopt a victim attitude. I know I have MANY times. How could he do this, when we had just bought a house and I had just got pregnant? How could he just walk away and give up on our R and family like that, etc...
The truth is that in a way, his leaving was what finally forced me to see my mistakes. I felt hurt and betrayed and abandoned and now I want to fix our problems and M and cannot believe he doesn't want to. I am forced to GAL and focus on myself and will most likely eventually move on and end up resigning or being ok with losing him, once I heal. But the reality is that all of this happened to HIM BEFORE he left...
He wanted to fix our problems and I wouldn't see and want to do it. He felt hurt and abandoned. He could not believe I could be so cruel and selfish. Okay...first, I think you are being brave, if not a bit to hard on yourself right now. Are you saying he was flawless and you were inexplicable cruel and neglectful? Wow...
But let's go there for a minute. Let's say YOU really BLEW IT.... Let's say he tried & tired and you failed and failed. Okay...so what can you do about that now?
You think you "made your bed so lie in it" and, shut up and don't complain again is the best approach? There maybe a thread of truth to that and it's crucial to recall our role in how we got where we are. I AGREE with that and I also agree that you're right to see thru the victimhood stages that can stall our growth bigtime. Too many victims waiting around for their spouses to change!
Too many feel that they "had their flaws BUT did not deserve"...and they're wrong. Their spouses were the first "victims" and the LBSers sometimes, wore them out. I get what you are saying.
But the point is, if you were really the "Wronger" party, and you is the victim who finally stood up for himself and saw OW who really appreciates him...and FINALLY he's happy...then what?
Do you fold your cards and revert to old behaviors? Do you learn nothing from this with which you could improve your life?
Do you start going negative on life? DO YOU KEEP FIGHTING WITH HIM TO PROVE HIM RIGHT??
NO! You keep working on you and you keep detaching (makes the working on you way way easier b/c you are not focussing on HIS life/work/feelings,) and you make the changes YOU choose to make.
You become a woman only a fool would leave. He will always wonder about your changes and what he wanted from you and if you are now able to give it...and everytime a fight or a bad event takes place w/OW and paradise isn't perfect, he'll look over his shoulders and wonder again. he'll have to tell himself you are "Still angry" to convince himself he did the right thing. He may ask the kids if you fume and vent at them OR about him...but they'll say "No, mom seems calm and happier these days..." and he will again 2nd guess himself. That is fine with you!
You'll always be the mother of his children and if you make the changes in you that you authentically believe ought to be made, at least 2 things*
1) he'll realize that finally, you are who he wanted you to be.
Though he'll question them and tell himself it's too late, he'll have second thoughts galore (and maybe he'll revisit the idea of a reconciliation b/c he probably will NOT recall what he said to you about "zero chance" NOR will he think that's a "contractual arrangement" in which he's not allowed to change his mind)
regardless... he'll have regrets b/c he'll know that he might have gotten through to you earlier, and if only....if only he had...
AND
2) you'll attract love into your life. YOU Will be happier. He will see that and he'll know that "if she can be happy with SOME OM then maybe it was not all her." And KG, it wasn't ALL you. NO m has that much fault on one side, for this long, And has three kids...
Those realizations and happiness events are very good things.
[/color] Until one day he finally gave up, resigned to lose the R and moved on. So he left me and he started to GAL. And now - he is happy with OW. He has found someone that appreciates him and that he can have a healthy R with - all the things we tell each other in these boards that we will someday achieve once we work on ourselves and heal. That's what he tells himself and you. MAybe it's true for now. Maybe it always will be and we can all say "Wow, you beat the odds! Good for you..." (I guess)
Or maybe he'll find that EVERY R takes work. And EVERY WOMAN has flaws...just different ones. She won't know every reference or joke you know or the history between you two and she cannot compete with your mothering relationships... AND it's pointless to ponder THEIR happiness, when you can be creating yours!
You think sex between them is ALWAYS GREAT??! She ALWAYS wants it and has multiple Os and knows just what he wants and blah blah blah and reads his mind and cooks just as he loves his food and she's great with ALL the kids and they ALL adjusted easily to this situation...
Um, I doubt that. And if it happens, I doubt it'll last. AND IF IT DOES so what? YOUR job is YOUR happiness, not worrying about theirs...
All these thoughts have been in my mind these last two weeks and they take me to that ugly place where I am hard on myself and cannot forgive myself. How could I have messed up so badly, that I just could not see the damage I was doing and now I have lost the most important R in my life...
The R has changed and can change again. It's not "lost". He's alive. So are you. See above comments for ideas...
I have been looking back at these 10 months since H left and at first I could see all his anger towards me. Then I saw him being torn, depressed, isolated... Now, he seems happy, he has truly moved on and he is treating me like just a friendly acquaintance and wants to keep it that way for the sake of our kids. There is no more guilt on his part. He is happy with his life.
When we have argued these past two weeks, he has reminded me how bad he wants the D, yet has not filed. On two occasions he gave me a reason for it. First time - cause he was waiting for me to get back to work (about a month ago). Second time, just last week, cause he is afraid of me. He wants to do it when we are getting along, he wants an amicable D, and he is afraid of my reaction and that I will get vindictive.
I don't know what to believe. Everyone has been pressuring me now for months to file, to protect myself, to take the first step before he gets crazy or stupid and spends the only $ we have left from our 401k. That his financial interests are no longer the same as mine (given that he is spending $ on OW, rather than buckle up, and stop spending for benefit of our family). He says that it will be sad if I give lawyers our children's money...
not as sad if he gives it to OW...So he sets it up that HE's being the smart kind one and the ONLY reason he hasn't filed is b/c he doesn't want YOU to be angry...or UNFAIR b/c only YOU could be unfair??? Really...I find that manipulative and self serving and very convenient of him.
Sorry but you'd be a fool not to see a L. I'm a L myself and I didn't represeent myself to save a few bucks. Good God, no. I hired one! When there are kids and property (even only a little) I say you consult a L. You do not HAVE TO DO anything but talk to a L. For goodness sake, seek out legal advice asap.
Our sitch was similar to yours in that we'd use a guideline. Count up the assets and divie in half and then make the alimony/child support based on court guidelines...the assets might have been different but the division isn't.
I don't know if he's trying to give me a guilt trip or not, but I want to believe him when he says he has only our children's best interest in mind and wants to go thru mediation for our D. You can do mediation AFTER you consult with a L!!!
I don't want to doubt him and he seems genuinely hurt that I don't trust him re. finances.
He doesn't have to know you talked to a L. And even if he does, you can say you "don't trust yourself to be objective" so you sought out legal advice to make sure the kids interests, AND YOURS (you are allowed to value yourself) are considered. How can he find fault in you taking an interest in making sure the kids are fine. And it's not your job to trust OW...(you don't have to say that but the fact is HE is under pressure from HER...and will be til their r ends).
NO one says you can't use mediators. Heck most L's will suggest it!
I know if I hire a lawyer and file for Separation or Divorce, he will not forgive me and things will get ugly. He won't forgive you? For what? And excuse me but HE left you.
As long as you stay calm and centered in front of him and the kids, what des he have to get angry about AND what difference does it make if he gets angry? What's he going to do, divorce you? OH wait...he already wants that... On the other hand, what if I believe him that we can do this amicably thru a mediator and he gets crazy and spends the little we have left on OW or hides it away from me?
Then you and your kids will suffer. And why? All b/c you feared standing up for yourself out of guilt from the past (BAGGAGE)
OR b/c you secretly hope he'll change his mind after seeing you be a doormat and then he'll come home???
I also think that he will never willingly give me the monthly amount that the Lawyer said I am entitled to by law. In CA there is a formula to figure this out and the numbers are high (we have three kids and he makes twice as much as I do). Either H has no clue how much this is OR, He knows perfectly well how much it is and that is why he doesn't want to hire lawyers - hoping that I will accept less in mediation? This is the thought I DON"T want to believe, but that everyone claims is real. I also live in California. My H makes 3-4 times more than me depending on the year. It's also why divorce in California CAN be cheap. (Niether of you is a gazillionaire, or celebrity, right?)
There IS a formula and it's pretty cut and dried. IMO The only thing YOU can get in mediation, is LESS than what you'd get in court.
I forgot how long you've been m but if it's over 10 years you'll be considered a long term m, and = marital support (alimony) is allowed and as long as you don't remarry or cohabitate (sometimes that's in the div agreement so read it carefully) you'll get that too.
It's so hard when everyone gives you their opinion. And most people that talk to me - all except my best friend- think he is GONE forever and that I need to file and get this over with, since he is not doing so. Everyone just tells me I am enabling him and he is having his cake and eating it too. Everyone tells me to ask myself why he hasn't filed since he is so set on the D... And so I question if I am doing the right thing for my children or being selfish for not wanting to fight with him re. divorce and finances... By filing or not filing? Just talking to a L won't hurt you. You can often get a free consult for half an hour to get info. What do your friends mean when they say you are enabling him? Enabling him to do what? Eat at the few remaining assets you have? And how are you doing financially anyhow?
These are also some of the thoughts that have taken me to such an ugly place these past two weeks. We have argued so much, that I think we both feel we were back to zero - to that nasty place we were right before he left. All the goodwill created in months is gone. not gone. Just covered up by your pain and his sense of entitlement to happiness at all costs, (including your heart). Scabs got torn off. Let them heal over and do your Mother Teresa best, not to yank on them again...
And as we have discussed before, he justifies in his actions due to my behavior. And I can honestly say, rightly so. He cannot see any permanent changes in me, so why wouldn't he think our R is impossible to fix? See how the fighting only fuels his negatives? That's what YOU can control. You must lose that anger asap. Contrast those negative images he has of you with positive contrasting images... Don't worry about how he'll see your legal moves. What matters is your demeanor when he picks up the kids or drops them off.
Seeing an upbeat calm and centered woman (you) who is working on herself FOR HERSELF and Not to get him back is what he'll see.
And he'll WANT you to be wrong, he'll WANT you to be angry again...and when you aren't, he will change tactics b/c he can't physically see the anger in you so...
he'll TRY to characterize your legal maneuvers (IF THAT IS WHAT YOU DO) as something vindictive instead of a normal reaction of an LBSer who's h is with OW...
AND all you'd be asking for is the standards under the guidelines. BIG DEAL!
See, this is a community property state SO I wanted to go for part of my h's MD income since I put him thru med school/residency, etc. My L said it was very doubtful.
But I literally wanted to "make new law" b/c I felt that I had helped create that marital asset" and it should be divided in half so that I'd get half his income regardless of whether I remarried...(she did NOT think I'd win, but hey, I was mad...)
For me to accept what the court said was likely, was hard to take (totally manageable, but still....) We also have 3 kids and a long term m.
My point is you could make more trouble for him by wanting MORE than the state will award you. If he wants to pay LESS than the state is going to give, what's the point of YOU wanting mediation?
What do YOU get out of medidation, since the 401k sounds pretty puny to me?
The 401k is what? IS it <$10k?
So you want to know if it's worth it to divide that small amount (assuming <$10k) in half to pay that in L's fees,
to give you more each month the rest of your unmarried life...um...gee...I'd say VERY WORTH IT!!
SEE THE L...
If someone (like your h) told you the whole divorce will cost you tons more than 15k TOTAL--they're wrong (and I'd say half that but I'm guessing).
BUT I say all this, assuming the only asset you have to divide is a 401k, and then you'd work out the formula for incomes and disparity and he'd pay a %...there's not a lot to this divorce. Am I missing something?
Is there a special needs child, a pending settlement, or a bunch of real estate? IF not, then This isn't that complicated sounding so far...
so if he wants mediation only, and the fact scenario is as I suspect above, meaning not complex, then mediation only helps him and only hurts you.
IMO, The best you can get in mediation is what you'd get anyhow in court. And you'd risk a lot of future earnings (who says he wont' ever get a raise? Shouldn't the kids benefit from that too?)
all to save a few dollars from your h's 401k??
I think he wants mediation b/c he wants to pay you less.
Sorry,but that's how I see it.
But I am finally getting out of this funk. I got up and started again, working on being friendly detached with H. No arguments in the last 4 days and we even have agreed to a visitation schedule. That is huge. We will see how that goes... I am no longer angry when I see him and I have started seeing a new Counselor - someone who specializes in anger management. Excellent!!!
We are also now dealing with the financial logistics of our short-sale and the repercussions of our credit taking a hit and our eventual divorce. H suggested I opened my own bank account and applied for my own credit card (ouch). Did that yesterday. Short sales in Cal are better than some states. I THINK the bank can't come after you. (Gee that's too bad )
So the realities of my new life are here and I don't know if I should stay still or make a move at this point. I feel like limbo has been detrimental to me and good for H. Like I said, he definitely looks happy and in a better place and I am the one who has regressed in the last few weeks... 2 things. 1) Limbo being bad for you. ONLY YOU know if that's the case. It's your decision to make and no one gets to judge you for it. If you need to file to move on, so be it.
2) his looking happy has NOTHING to do with how YOU are doing. His misery index or his happiness index do NOT correlate with yours.
If he wins the lottery - that should not make you sad. If his car breaks down that should not make you happy. The two lives & happiness dimensions are NOT related.
Your happiness is exclusively under your control. His happiness is merely a matter of intellectual curiosity on your part.
The only thing I know for sure, is that I am not ready to file for anything today. I will research the mediation process, because I know nothing about it. I have looked into legal separation, but would need to actually hire a L and pay a retainer to do so. To do that, I would need to be ready to let go of our 401k money, since that is all that is left, and also prepare for ugly situation with H.
The legal sep and a div costs are similar I'd think. I filed for a sep and the retainer was the same. But I saved our house from h's "investment" ideas with his heroes on the tundra...worht it to me. Plus I felt better, and safer. And I kept the L's dealing with each other to separate my face from the L face.
Mediation is no picnic. It means facing each other and debating and discussing and all that WITHOUT anyone there for YOU.
He'll get mad at you in mediation too, unless you do as he says.
TO me, in THIS situation he's going to be angry with you no matter which route you take, (Unless you literally do exactly as he says) b/c you want what's in your interest and the kids.
May as well have someone looking out for you. And the L can narrow down what's in dispute (which won't be much once your h sees the charts)
like visitation and kids stuff and where to live or where he can move, take the kids, etc.
THAT can all go into mediation.
Good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Just to shed some light. I just went through a mediation in Florida last April.
Some time after my L had drafted a settlement agreement and distributed for perusal, we went to the mediator's office.
Me any my L were situated in one room. XW and her L were stationed in another room.
The mediator would go back and forth between the rooms, as the parties wanted to either accept or amend each line item in the agreement, in some cases "meeting in the middle" on contested issues. The mediator would offer suggestions and observations on the opposing party's disposition or level of stubbornness, while the lawyers advised.
We never did any negotiating face to face.
There is a caveat however. My XW and I were both predisposed to get it over with and avoid court. We trusted each other to this extent. For example, we agreed to a 50/50 split of custody knowing full well we would be flexible with schedules and allow the kids to spend the night with whomever they preferred.
I think you have to meet some level of trust with your WAS, if you're going to negotiate/mediate.
Me 53 XW 50 M 18 Years +2 S14 D19 Bomb 10-24-10 Served 1-27-11 Mediate 4-21-11 Civil D Final 6-2-11 No church anullment "A man is not finished when he is defeated, he is finished when he quits."
and in California they SOMETIMES (i can't say it always happens- b/c I didn't ask)
make you sit together, you two and a mediator.
She has no L.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
My ex and I sat together in a room with the mediator. We each met privately with our own outside lawyers in between the meetings we had with the mediator. (We COULD have had our outside lawyers in the room with the mediator but that would likely have been expensive and unnecessary in our case).
I do think mediation is the way to go ASSUMING that both parties can be civil and that one party is not so weak that they would always give in.
Having our own outside attorneys gave both myself and my ex a sounding board and the assurance that we weren't getting totally taken advantage of (let's face it - both parties will feel like they got shortchanged if it's a fair divorce lol). I'm sure my ex would have been more unreasonable if he hadn't had an attorney outside to tell him that the deal was fair.
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