Finally confronted H on affair...Now what????

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks 25.
I have been doing better with my kids, personal life and social life. Everything, except H...

I wish I had better news to report, but we have had a couple of rough weeks since our conversation on 10/4 where I begged and pleaded. I felt so blatantly and categorically rejected that day. I don't think I had ever begged anyone like that. I had never let my guard down so much and put myself on the line like that. (One of my defects is that I am too proud sometimes) And H was so clear about there being absolutely no chance for us. He was so clear about being so happy with OW...

Okay. I hear you. It's good to know that you DID express yourself fully then. I mean you can't say you withheld. That has some value. And while I can assume he thinks he's happier with her and there's no chance for you two, I tend to disbelieve most of what they tell themselves and others. Frankly if he allowed himself to believe your changes were real AND permanent, he MIGHT have to revisit the choices he's made and that takes a whole lot of energy he lacks at the moment.

You can accept his words at face value but know that they are NOT written in stone. I re-read my 2005-06 journals last month. What a bad idea that was..in most ways. I mean I went back to the whole victimhood thing you mention and how I REALLY FELT at the time...thing is, some of my feelings were plain wrong to feel. Not based in reality.

AND some of the feelings I had were real, and true, BUT CHANGED...nothing is written in stone.

It's been rough because I again masked my hurt in anger and the negative cycle of arguing and blaming each other has come back. We have been fighting constantly for almost two weeks and I have also been rough on myself - going back to that place of not forgiving myself. How could I have been so selfish and blind and in denial to let our R get to the point where H just gave up and walked away, etc...

it's a scary place to be. Knowing we're all human and flawed and made stupid or selfish mistakes. Welcome to the Humanity club...but you did what you did with the tools you had/lacked then. Now, you know better.


It's my personal opinion and I don't want to stir any controversy, but in these boards, we all empathize with each other, and we, the left behind spouses can sometimes adopt a victim attitude. I know I have MANY times. How could he do this, when we had just bought a house and I had just got pregnant? How could he just walk away and give up on our R and family like that, etc...

The truth is that in a way, his leaving was what finally forced me to see my mistakes. I felt hurt and betrayed and abandoned and now I want to fix our problems and M and cannot believe he doesn't want to. I am forced to GAL and focus on myself and will most likely eventually move on and end up resigning or being ok with losing him, once I heal. But the reality is that all of this happened to HIM BEFORE he left...

He wanted to fix our problems and I wouldn't see and want to do it. He felt hurt and abandoned. He could not believe I could be so cruel and selfish.

Okay...first, I think you are being brave, if not a bit to hard on yourself right now. Are you saying he was flawless and you were inexplicable cruel and neglectful? Wow...

But let's go there for a minute. Let's say YOU really BLEW IT....
Let's say he tried & tired and you failed and failed. Okay...so what can you do about that now?

You think you "made your bed so lie in it" and, shut up and don't complain again is the best approach? There maybe a thread of truth to that and it's crucial to recall our role in how we got where we are. I AGREE with that and I also agree that you're right to see thru the victimhood stages that can stall our growth bigtime. Too many victims waiting around for their spouses to change!

Too many feel that they "had their flaws BUT did not deserve"...and they're wrong. Their spouses were the first "victims" and the LBSers sometimes, wore them out. I get what you are saying.

But the point is, if you were really the "Wronger" party, and you is the victim who finally stood up for himself and saw OW who really appreciates him...and FINALLY he's happy...then what?

Do you fold your cards and revert to old behaviors? Do you learn nothing from this with which you could improve your life?

Do you start going negative on life? DO YOU KEEP FIGHTING WITH HIM TO PROVE HIM RIGHT??

NO! You keep working on you and you keep detaching (makes the working on you way way easier b/c you are not focussing on HIS life/work/feelings,) and you make the changes YOU choose to make.

You become a woman only a fool would leave. He will always wonder about your changes and what he wanted from you and if you are now able to give it...and everytime a fight or a bad event takes place w/OW and paradise isn't perfect, he'll look over his shoulders and wonder again. he'll have to tell himself you are "Still angry" to convince himself he did the right thing. He may ask the kids if you fume and vent at them OR about him...but they'll say "No, mom seems calm and happier these days..." and he will again 2nd guess himself. That is fine with you!

You'll always be the mother of his children and if you make the changes in you that you authentically believe ought to be made, at least 2 things*

1) he'll realize that finally, you are who he wanted you to be.

Though he'll question them and tell himself it's too late, he'll have second thoughts galore (and maybe he'll revisit the idea of a reconciliation b/c he probably will NOT recall what he said to you about "zero chance" NOR will he think that's a "contractual arrangement" in which he's not allowed to change his mind)

regardless... he'll have regrets b/c he'll know that he might have gotten through to you earlier, and if only....if only he had...

AND

2) you'll attract love into your life. YOU Will be happier. He will see that and he'll know that "if she can be happy with SOME OM then maybe it was not all her."

And KG, it wasn't ALL you. NO m has that much fault on one side, for this long, And has three kids...

Those realizations and happiness events are very good things.

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Until one day he finally gave up, resigned to lose the R and moved on. So he left me and he started to GAL. And now - he is happy with OW. He has found someone that appreciates him and that he can have a healthy R with - all the things we tell each other in these boards that we will someday achieve once we work on ourselves and heal.

That's what he tells himself and you. MAybe it's true for now. Maybe it always will be and we can all say "Wow, you beat the odds! Good for you..." (I guess)

Or maybe he'll find that EVERY R takes work. And EVERY WOMAN has flaws...just different ones. She won't know every reference or joke you know or the history between you two and she cannot compete with your mothering relationships...

AND it's pointless to ponder THEIR happiness, when you can be creating yours!

You think sex between them is ALWAYS GREAT??! She ALWAYS wants it and has multiple Os and knows just what he wants and blah blah blah and reads his mind and cooks just as he loves his food and she's great with ALL the kids and they ALL adjusted easily to this situation...

Um, I doubt that. And if it happens, I doubt it'll last. AND IF IT DOES so what? YOUR job is YOUR happiness, not worrying about theirs...


All these thoughts have been in my mind these last two weeks and they take me to that ugly place where I am hard on myself and cannot forgive myself. How could I have messed up so badly, that I just could not see the damage I was doing and now I have lost the most important R in my life...


The R has changed and can change again. It's not "lost". He's alive. So are you. See above comments for ideas...

I have been looking back at these 10 months since H left and at first I could see all his anger towards me. Then I saw him being torn, depressed, isolated... Now, he seems happy, he has truly moved on and he is treating me like just a friendly acquaintance and wants to keep it that way for the sake of our kids. There is no more guilt on his part. He is happy with his life.

When we have argued these past two weeks, he has reminded me how bad he wants the D, yet has not filed. On two occasions he gave me a reason for it. First time - cause he was waiting for me to get back to work (about a month ago). Second time, just last week, cause he is afraid of me. He wants to do it when we are getting along, he wants an amicable D, and he is afraid of my reaction and that I will get vindictive.

I don't know what to believe. Everyone has been pressuring me now for months to file, to protect myself, to take the first step before he gets crazy or stupid and spends the only $ we have left from our 401k. That his financial interests are no longer the same as mine (given that he is spending $ on OW, rather than buckle up, and stop spending for benefit of our family). He says that it will be sad if I give lawyers our children's money...

not as sad if he gives it to OW...So he sets it up that HE's being the smart kind one and the ONLY reason he hasn't filed is b/c he doesn't want YOU to be angry...or UNFAIR b/c only YOU could be unfair??? Really...I find that manipulative and self serving and very convenient of him.

Sorry but you'd be a fool not to see a L. I'm a L myself and I didn't represeent myself to save a few bucks. Good God, no. I hired one! When there are kids and property (even only a little) I say you consult a L. You do not HAVE TO DO anything but talk to a L. For goodness sake, seek out legal advice asap.

Our sitch was similar to yours in that we'd use a guideline. Count up the assets and divie in half and then make the alimony/child support based on court guidelines...the assets might have been different but the division isn't.



I don't know if he's trying to give me a guilt trip or not, but I want to believe him when he says he has only our children's best interest in mind and wants to go thru mediation for our D.

You can do mediation AFTER you consult with a L!!!

I don't want to doubt him and he seems genuinely hurt that I don't trust him re. finances.

He doesn't have to know you talked to a L. And even if he does, you can say you "don't trust yourself to be objective" so you sought out legal advice to make sure the kids interests, AND YOURS (you are allowed to value yourself) are considered. How can he find fault in you taking an interest in making sure the kids are fine. And it's not your job to trust OW...(you don't have to say that but the fact is HE is under pressure from HER...and will be til their r ends).

NO one says you can't use mediators. Heck most L's will suggest it!


I know if I hire a lawyer and file for Separation or Divorce, he will not forgive me and things will get ugly.

He won't forgive you? For what? And excuse me but HE left you.

As long as you stay calm and centered in front of him and the kids, what des he have to get angry about AND what difference does it make if he gets angry? What's he going to do, divorce you? OH wait...he already wants that...

On the other hand, what if I believe him that we can do this amicably thru a mediator and he gets crazy and spends the little we have left on OW or hides it away from me?

Then you and your kids will suffer. And why? All b/c you feared standing up for yourself out of guilt from the past (BAGGAGE)

OR
b/c you secretly hope he'll change his mind after seeing you be a doormat and then he'll come home???


I also think that he will never willingly give me the monthly amount that the Lawyer said I am entitled to by law. In CA there is a formula to figure this out and the numbers are high (we have three kids and he makes twice as much as I do). Either H has no clue how much this is
OR,
He knows perfectly well how much it is and that is why he doesn't want to hire lawyers - hoping that I will accept less in mediation? This is the thought I DON"T want to believe, but that everyone claims is real.

I also live in California. My H makes 3-4 times more than me depending on the year. It's also why divorce in California CAN be cheap. (Niether of you is a gazillionaire, or celebrity, right?)

There IS a formula and it's pretty cut and dried. IMO The only thing YOU can get in mediation, is LESS than what you'd get in court.

I forgot how long you've been m but if it's over 10 years you'll be considered a long term m, and = marital support (alimony) is allowed and as long as you don't remarry or cohabitate (sometimes that's in the div agreement so read it carefully) you'll get that too.


It's so hard when everyone gives you their opinion. And most people that talk to me - all except my best friend- think he is GONE forever and that I need to file and get this over with, since he is not doing so.

Everyone just tells me I am enabling him and he is having his cake and eating it too. Everyone tells me to ask myself why he hasn't filed since he is so set on the D...

And so I question if I am doing the right thing for my children or being selfish for not wanting to fight with him re. divorce and finances...

By filing or not filing? Just talking to a L won't hurt you. You can often get a free consult for half an hour to get info. What do your friends mean when they say you are enabling him? Enabling him to do what? Eat at the few remaining assets you have? And how are you doing financially anyhow?

These are also some of the thoughts that have taken me to such an ugly place these past two weeks. We have argued so much, that I think we both feel we were back to zero - to that nasty place we were right before he left. All the goodwill created in months is gone.

not gone. Just covered up by your pain and his sense of entitlement to happiness at all costs, (including your heart). Scabs got torn off. Let them heal over and do your Mother Teresa best, not to yank on them again...


And as we have discussed before, he justifies in his actions due to my behavior. And I can honestly say, rightly so. He cannot see any permanent changes in me, so why wouldn't he think our R is impossible to fix?

See how the fighting only fuels his negatives? That's what YOU can control.
You must lose that anger asap. Contrast those negative images he has of you with positive contrasting images...

Don't worry about how he'll see your legal moves. What matters is your demeanor when he picks up the kids or drops them off.

Seeing an upbeat calm and centered woman (you) who is working on herself FOR HERSELF and Not to get him back is what he'll see.

And he'll WANT you to be wrong, he'll WANT you to be angry again...and when you aren't, he will change tactics b/c he can't physically see the anger in you so...

he'll TRY to characterize your legal maneuvers (IF THAT IS WHAT YOU DO) as something vindictive instead of a normal reaction of an LBSer who's h is with OW...

AND all you'd be asking for is the standards under the guidelines. BIG DEAL!

See, this is a community property state SO I wanted to go for part of my h's MD income since I put him thru med school/residency, etc. My L said it was very doubtful.

But I literally wanted to "make new law" b/c I felt that I had helped create that marital asset" and it should be divided in half so that I'd get half his income regardless of whether I remarried...(she did NOT think I'd win, but hey, I was mad...)

For me to accept what the court said was likely, was hard to take (totally manageable, but still....) We also have 3 kids and a long term m.

My point is you could make more trouble for him by wanting MORE than the state will award you. If he wants to pay LESS than the state is going to give, what's the point of YOU wanting mediation?

What do YOU get out of medidation, since the 401k sounds pretty puny to me?

The 401k is what? IS it <$10k?

So you want to know if it's worth it to divide that small amount (assuming <$10k) in half to pay that in L's fees,

to give you more each month the rest of your unmarried life...um...gee...I'd say VERY WORTH IT!!

SEE THE L...

If someone (like your h) told you the whole divorce will cost you tons more than 15k TOTAL--they're wrong (and I'd say half that but I'm guessing).


BUT I say all this, assuming the only asset you have to divide is a 401k, and then you'd work out the formula for incomes and disparity and he'd pay a %...there's not a lot to this divorce. Am I missing something?

Is there a special needs child, a pending settlement, or a bunch of real estate? IF not, then This isn't that complicated sounding so far...

so if he wants mediation only, and the fact scenario is as I suspect above, meaning not complex, then mediation only helps him and only hurts you.

IMO, The best you can get in mediation is what you'd get anyhow in court. And you'd risk a lot of future earnings (who says he wont' ever get a raise? Shouldn't the kids benefit from that too?)

all to save a few dollars from your h's 401k??

I think he wants mediation b/c he wants to pay you less.

Sorry,but that's how I see it.

But I am finally getting out of this funk. I got up and started again, working on being friendly detached with H. No arguments in the last 4 days and we even have agreed to a visitation schedule. That is huge. We will see how that goes...
I am no longer angry when I see him and I have started seeing a new Counselor - someone who specializes in anger management.

Excellent!!!

We are also now dealing with the financial logistics of our short-sale and the repercussions of our credit taking a hit and our eventual divorce. H suggested I opened my own bank account and applied for my own credit card (ouch). Did that yesterday.

Short sales in Cal are better than some states. I THINK the bank can't come after you. (Gee that's too bad )

So the realities of my new life are here and I don't know if I should stay still or make a move at this point. I feel like limbo has been detrimental to me and good for H. Like I said, he definitely looks happy and in a better place and I am the one who has regressed in the last few weeks...

2 things. 1) Limbo being bad for you. ONLY YOU know if that's the case. It's your decision to make and no one gets to judge you for it. If you need to file to move on, so be it.

2) his looking happy has NOTHING to do with how YOU are doing. His misery index or his happiness index do NOT correlate with yours.

If he wins the lottery - that should not make you sad. If his car breaks down that should not make you happy. The two lives & happiness dimensions are NOT related.

Your happiness is exclusively under your control. His happiness is merely a matter of intellectual curiosity on your part.


The only thing I know for sure, is that I am not ready to file for anything today. I will research the mediation process, because I know nothing about it.

I have looked into legal separation, but would need to actually hire a L and pay a retainer to do so. To do that, I would need to be ready to let go of our 401k money, since that is all that is left, and also prepare for ugly situation with H.



The legal sep and a div costs are similar I'd think. I filed for a sep and the retainer was the same. But I saved our house from h's "investment" ideas with his heroes on the tundra...worht it to me. Plus I felt better, and safer. And I kept the L's dealing with each other to separate my face from the L face.

Mediation is no picnic. It means facing each other and debating and discussing and all that WITHOUT anyone there for YOU.

He'll get mad at you in mediation too, unless you do as he says.

TO me, in THIS situation he's going to be angry with you no matter which route you take, (Unless you literally do exactly as he says) b/c you want what's in your interest and the kids.

May as well have someone looking out for you. And the L can narrow down what's in dispute (which won't be much once your h sees the charts)

like visitation and kids stuff and where to live or where he can move, take the kids, etc.

THAT can all go into mediation.

Good luck.