Living in the trenches....Thread #5

[Navyguy]

Hey everyone, I'm still here.

The last week has been pretty hard. It's almost felt like W has been going out of her way to treat me like crap. Things seemed ok for the first couple days after our talk (two posts ago), but we have definitely digressed since then.

W has not been inititating any interaction with me...talking, eye contact, physical, etc. I have tried to back off from when I thought we were improving, but apparently it wasn't enough.

I feel like i can do nothing right. The other night was a perfect example. The kids had swim lessons, so I left work early to take them. Traffic was a complete nightmare, so I didn't make it back in time. I called W to tell her that I wasn't going to make it, she said it was ok and she'll take them. When I finally got home (my 12 mile commute took 1.75 hours) the house was pretty messy so I started cleaning and started cooking dinner. When W and kids got home, I had almost finished cleaning and cooking. W walks in and says nothing, S3 walks in and sees that I was cooking and starts crying, because he wanted mc Donalds. W then tells him that "she didn't say we would get mcdonalds, but that we would go home and see if daddy wanted to go". So I get the huge guilt trip because S3 didn't get mcdonalds...I then offered to stop cooking so we could go and W replied in her "annoyed" tone that "it's fine we can just eat here". I was fuming, but managed to let it go.

I guess what is really bothering me right now is that W seems to be unilaterally deciding when we get to act like we're married. God forbid that I touch her or say or do something nice to/for her when she's "not feeling it".

I don't know how to get things back on track....or maybe this is the track and these pullbacks are to be expected? After the highs of a few weeks ago, this really, really hurts to feel like ive been kicked back to the curb.

It continues now...we were sitting on the couch, then W took her books downstairs to study and is laying in the bed down there. I went down to ask if she was ok...she said she "was trying to get some schoolwork done and that she really needed some space right now". So I went out for awhile. When I got back I noticed she had taken her pillow down there. I asked her if she is planning to sleep down there. She said "I don't know". I can't help but think that meant "yes I am but I don't want to tell you". Anyways, I'm laying in bed alone right now.

Sorry for the negativity here....I just needed to get some of this off my chest and find out if I'm being reasonable or not. I feel really used right now, and it doesn't feel good at all.

[Navyguy]

After reading my post a couple times, I decided I needed to go talk to W. I got up and noticed she had turned the lights off, so I guessed right that she had been planning to sleep downstairs. I felt like I am being punished and in my mind, I must have done something wrong.

So, I went down and asked if she was mad. She said no. I asked why she was sleeping downstairs. She said that it was nothing specific i did but that I have been getting on her nerves and she wanted space. I told her I feel like I must have done something wrong and that I'm beating myself up and can't figure out for the life of me why. W them asked if I'm trying to tell her that she's wrong for sleeping downstairs. Fortunately I didn't step on that land mine. I just told her that I don't think this is about right and wrong. If she feels like she needs to sleep downstairs, then that's what she needs. I said I guess I just need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Then I said good night and went back upstairs. Going to sleep now, W is still downstairs. Good night.

[workinghardguy]

NG... I know it's terribly hard, but you need to let her do her thing. If she wants to be downstairs, let her do it. By going downstairs you told her three things:
- you don't understand her and aren't trying to see things from her perspective.
- You want to control what she does, through guilt if need be.
- You want to be comforted, by her, and she can't do that right now so this reinforces her negative feelings towards you.

I know each night I want to tell my wife that she is making her world more difficult than she needs to. I wonder what I did that made life so terrible for her. But then take a step back. She is where she is and I need to let her be there.

Give her space. Even though it feels terrible and goes against all human nature and all your instincts... you have to give her space.

[Navyguy]

Well, the "valley" continues. I am still extremely confused and have received nothing from W to help give me clarity. I am giving W space. She finished her school classes last night and now has a week off...I thought that things might improve since she'd been telling me she was stressed from her classes.

Nothing so far. W slept in the basement last night and continues to give me the cold shoulder at nearly every possible opportunity. I don't understand how she thinks that is ok. I guess I'll just stay patient. Not much else I can do.

[MrBond]

Rather than assuming its something that you did, you can just ask if she's okay. It's up to her whether or not to say it's something you did. Stop living your life based on how she reacts to you. Shrug things off as best you can.

If she gives you the cold shoulder, don't bother analyzing it to death if she doesn't want to talk about it. However, if she is being rude, tell her.

Right now she's got your b@lls in her pocket. Time to start asserting yourself. Not being a d_ck about it, but call her out on her bad behavior when necessary. She has to start "remembering" that you are a person too and have feelings as well.

Maybe that's the thing that is different that you need to do.

[greenblue90]

Navy
I try to check in with you every once in a while, been trying to analyze your sitch, and I'm almost sure your W is acting in one of two ways.

Either she is keeping this up while she is in school in a plan to eventually make her escape. In other words finish the degree, get a job, move out, take the kids.

Or

She is perpetually stuck in her own misery and is too busy scape goating you to actually move to piecing. It is easier for her to blame you than to deal with her own issues.

She is lagging because she has no reason to change. She knows you want to save the marriage so she will push and push. There will always be an excuse, no matter how hard you try she will always push you away, because it's easy.

IMHO your best chance is to end the cycle of anger, let her know that her behavior is becoming intolerable, and that you will no longer be the one she takes it out on. Yes this will lead to fights, yes she will threaten you with leaving, but honestly is this what you want?

I'm not saying to throw her out, but slowly and methodically stand up for yourself. It's ok to get angry when unjustly treated, and make sure she knows. Let's face it she probably thinks she is entitled to treat you like she does. Let her know she can't.

This can be done gently but firmly. Once she can't blame you then she can start working on HER issues.

[Navyguy]

MrBond: I agree completely. I really struggle with finding the right words to tell her that she's mistreating me when it happens. How could I say that to her without her feeling blamed?

gb: you are probably right. If I had to take a honest guess between the two scenarios you described, I'd say it's the latter. I guess I pose the same question to you as I did MrBond...how can I tell her she's mistreating me without her getting pissed?

Things seem to be turning back a bit toward the positive side. We'll see how it goes. D5 turned 6 today!!! Can't wait to get home and celebrate.

Oh...interesting convo with W the other night sitting next to a fire in the backyard. She told me that she thinks she might have hypothyroidism...she showed me the list of possible symptoms and it seems possible. Anyone have any experience with that?

[MrBond]

"I understand that something's bothering you and I'm here to listen if you want to talk about it."

Then if she goes off on you for no reason, tell her.

"I understand that something's bothering you. However I am not a mind reader and would like to know what your thoughts are. I do not, however, appreciate being blamed or criticized for something that I do not know."

or flat out tell her that you don't appreciate being treated that way and that you ask her to treat you the same way you're treating her - with respect.

There's a reason I changed my name to Mr. Bond. When I stopped worrying if whether or not something I say will get my W mad, she started respecting me more. I started acting more like the man and not her pet.

You're in the Navy, you know what it's like to up the testosterone a little bit. Not like you're going to slap her, but start asserting your masculinity a little here. No one respects a guy they can walk all over.

[greenblue90]

I never read your wife's complaints, but if you feel she is being abusive, consider reading the book no more mr nice guy. It has a lot of good insights about men that appease women, and get nothing but grief out of it.

I'll drop some quick tips, first when she gets mad create, and give her space. You don't want to add fuel for the fire. Get away and calm down. While you do this it is imperative that you don't pretend like nothing is wrong. If you are mad, be mad. Theres a difference between being mad and being angry. You don't have to lose your temper, you also shouldn't jump through hoops to make everything ok. Let her throw her tantrum, and for the most part ignore. Once she comes around, don't pretend nothing is wrong. This just shows her that you are eager to make up no matter how bad she treats you.

After things have calmed down let her know, that you understand she is stressed, but taking it out on you is wrong, and you don't want the two of you to have that type of relationship dynamic.

If she gets angry at you hold your ground. This can be done gently but firmly.

[Navyguy]

This could be a long one. W and I had a talk last night. Warning: there’s some definite DB no-no’s in here.

Well, last night after we got home from dinner, I was in our room folding clothes and putting them away and W came in and asked me if I was ok. I decided it would be a good time to bring up how she’s been treating me lately. I’ll try to do this 2step style:

W: Are you ok?

M: No, not really. I’ve been having a hard time with how you’ve been treating me the past few weeks. I feel like you’re purposely not being nice to me.

W: I decided that I wasn’t going to try to save your feelings or keep things bottled up anymore.

M: That’s ok, but that’s not what’s bothering me. It feels like you are going out of your way to be mean to me.

W: Well when I act normal to you, you seem to think that everything is great between us, and I’m not there. Then we always have this same argument about how I’m feeling and you not understanding why.

M: We’ve only had that discussion once in the 7 months that you’ve been back, and that was because I thought things had changed, but then you suddenly started being not nice to me again and I had no idea why. I understand that we are not in a good place. But I don’t understand why you can’t be yourself around me and be nice to me like you are with everyone else. I feel like you are nicer to total strangers than you are to me a lot of the time.

W: That’s because strangers haven’t hurt me like you did.

And here’s where things went downhill…as usual, she brought up the past, and I took the bait. @#$%.

M: I know that I wasn’t a perfect husband, but there’s a big difference between being a less-than-perfect husband and a bad husband. I have spent a lot of time figuring out what I did that was wrong, figuring out how it made you feel, and making sure that it will never happen again. I don’t know what else I can do. I spent a lot of time working with 2 different IC’s…and I told them everything. They both had a very hard time understanding what I did that was so bad.

W: Well that pisses me off that the counselors were telling you that. You treated me like crap and made me feel terrible for 7 years. You can’t understand how I felt. Try living like you are now for 7 years.

Doing some quick math in my head….we’ve only known each other for 10 years, we’ve been married for 7 ½ years, and it’s been at least 4 years since we’ve had an argument about anything other than me pushing her to come back into our marriage. But anyways…I didn’t say that…

M: There was never a time where I made a conscious effort to not be nice to you.

W: Well every single time I tried to talk to you, you would call me a liar or a martyr and it made me madder and madder until all I could see was a selfish person that I hated.

M: I don’t think I ever called you a liar and I used the word martyr once. I know I fought unfairly, and I would rationalize my wrong actions. I never had the intent of hurting you. I have owned up to my mistakes and fixed them. We haven’t had an argument about anything other than the way you feel about me for four years.

At this point, W starts bringing up specific things that I did (video game addiction, going out to play golf all the time, leaving her alone with our daughter while I’m out having fun, trying to make her do everything I wanted to do, not doing things she wanted to do, etc, etc.) And I stupidly make excuses for them such as: I felt like you never wanted to do anything with me, I was young and didn’t have any relationship experience, I didn’t understand what being a father meant, etc, etc. and she tells me hearing these excuses just makes her madder. I say that I’m just trying to get you to see my POV, not make excuses. Same death spiral conversation we’ve had at least a dozen times...

W: This just proves that you don’t understand or truly believe that what you did in the past was wrong, and you don’t understand how I feel.

M: Listen, you are right. There is no excuse for the things I did. And nothing I say can change the past. I have owned my mistakes and I have done a lot of hard work to make sure they will never happen again. I am truly sorry about what I did in the past, but I didn’t want to have this conversation again. I wanted to talk about is why you are being not so nice to me lately.

W: You keep pushing me and trying to force me to feel a certain way, and that just makes me see that same selfish jerk that I hate.

M: Do you think I live my life in a selfish manner today?

W: No, I think you’ve fixed that.

M: Then how do you still see the selfish jerk?

W: Because of how badly you hurt me.

M: (not going down that rabbit hole again) What is the purpose of being mean to me?

W: I don’t know, I just want you to stop pushing for a normal M.

M: I have a very hard time with that…I feel like I should be doing all the nice things a H would normally do for a W. Especially after I thought we were on the path to fixing things last month.

W: Well, pushing for what you want is not helping, it just pisses me off and pushes me away.

M: I know. Obviously you want no physical contact from me. I know you see that as pushing. Are there any other things I do that you feel are pushing?

W: I don’t know. I’m tired. (her way of telling me she doesn’t want to talk anymore)

M: Ok. Well what if we can agree that I don’t push you for anything, and you don’t have to be “not-nice” to me.

W: That would work.

M: Cool. I would really like that.

W: Ok.

M: Well thanks for talking. I hope you know that I really am sorry about the past and I am sorry I was getting defensive and making excuses for it tonight.

W: Ok, thanks.

M: Good night.

W: Good night.

So far this morning, W has been nice to me. Cheerful when we got up and she has sent a couple texts since I have been at work. So despite opening the old wounds last night, I think the talk ended up being a good thing. I just have to make absolutely sure I hold up my end of the bargain and not do anything she might see as “pushing”. I think this was a good first step toward standing up for myself.