What was I an idiot? Of course there's an OM...

[workinghardguy]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the last thread was getting long, and this morning probably marks a new stage in this ridiculous drama. Below is the last post from that thread:

Bad, bad morning... discovered the OM this morning. I don't know to what extent an OM. Just saw a fraction of a message. But not a message that you send someone normally. He lives four hours away. She met him end of July. She spent all weekend with him a few weeks ago (along with lots of other people). Don't know if they've ML or not. I know she's not seeing him regularly (like weekly or anything) because he's a long way away.

When I was looking at phone and text records they had stopped communicating except for the rare text message. This message I saw came from Facebook two and a half weeks ago. Didn't look like anything since.

I guess I'm not super-shocked. This was the guy I worried about. If there was any guy it was this guy. I had trusted her word that there was nothing there. Well, not really, I knew she at least had a crush or infatuation. Maybe that's become more.

Just very, very sad and hurt this morning. I don't plan to confront her. Don't plan to bring it up. Let the string play out for now I guess. I'm going to have to meditate on if the worse is true, can I forgive her and trust her again at some point. I think I can, we've all screwed up in life, but I have to find a way there.

But f*ck is this doesn't rip your heart out. When I get back from church with S she'll be here. I'll have to be Mr. PMA and "as-if". Not sure how I'm going to pull that off.

[workinghardguy]

And since someone will ask I found out because she got home late last night and I think drunk. She was so out of it she left her phone downstairs. I saw it and looked. I know, I know, 2x4 please. This is exactly why you don't look. The OM was there before I looked and is there after. The only difference is instead of being uneasy about it I get to be in intense pain about it. Yay for me. And I can't do anything about it directly... even better.

I should've just left well enough alone. Guess I had to learn the hard way.

[~ kd ~]

Yes, 2x4s... but you know what you did was wrong...

Or was it...?

Why did you look? After so long of suspecting, why did you look?

It is said about "cheating"... "If you don't know if you are cheating, just ask your spouse..."

If they are keeping a certain something quiet... if they are hiding someone... and withholding is a form of lying... they have a sense that what they are doing is "wrong"...

So, back to the question... Why did you look?

But... you looked... what did you learn? You learned that your gut was at least close to correct... there's something more about this guy than she's telling you... so why do you feel bad about finding more proof?

How does this change your stand? What is your fear around "knowing" she's cheating...?

[Accuray]

WHG,

Very very sad. I feel for you, I'm ahead of you on this one. That s*cks. One thing I learned, as long as OM was in the picture, DB, 180, etc. just didn't have much of an impact. Hopefully you will feel better about your efforts to date, because they would have borne more fruit without OM. No wonder she was so angry about the original FB incident!

If there is any help or advice I can give, let me know. I was not able to make progress until OM was over, and then there will be a period of grief and anger for W, when all you can do is tread water. She will be the harshest on you when OM is gone in my experience, because now there is a hole, and she won't let you fill it for her, she'll just be angry.

I caught a huge stroke of luck because OM either had a crisis of conscience or was caught, but he did the textbook "cease all contact now and forever" -- defriend on FB, changed mobile # and e-mail address, blocked on chat, everything the way you *should* to recover your M.

That's why I'm a bit less "snoop hostile" than some. If OM is there, I believe you have to DB differently. You have to tread water, but I don't believe you can make much progress toward reconciliation. Your goal is to not drive them farther away, and not to reinforce their self-inflicted belief that you are the ultimate bad guy, and that's a different goal than trying to draw them closer. Maybe the actions are exactly the same, but your expectations and attitude cannot be.

Hang in there my friend, let me know if I can answer any questions for you about my experience here.

--Accuray

[HopefulStill]

WHG

Just my 2 cents, but my W and I made zero progress until I confronted her about her EA. In my case I had evidence- her secret email account. Once it was out in the open she finally opened up to me. A word of caution- have hard evidence!! My wife tried to deny until she knew I had her cold. For a girl that was always so truthful she was a very good, and adamant, liar (which really surprised me). Had I not seen it with my own eyes I'm sure she would have convinced me I was crazy.

Again, my opinion, but why let her get closer to this guy while you pretend it isn't happening? You've been doing that (in essence) since July- has it helped? Now that you KNOW you should get hard evidence and confront her (again, just my opinion). You might be able to stop it from becoming a PA if it has not already gone there.

All is fair in love and war. I wasn't going to give the OM a single advantage, I suggest you do not either. I still have not told the OMs wife about what her husband was up to (didn't want their two kids drawn into the fire), but I still have that card if I need it (if he does not steer clear of my W).

Best of luck!! I pray your marriage survives this storm.

[workinghardguy]

Good gravy what a day. I guess I don't really know how I feel right now it's been such a day. I think I'm just sort of numb right now.

So the morning started with the OM thing. Since I'd already done the snooping, I went all in and did more research. I don't think it's active or on-going. I just can't find any evidence in phone calls, messages, etc... Not even an EA... I mean how do you have an EA if you haven't talked or messaged in weeks? Maybe there were some feelings, some shared time, maybe even sex but nothing now.

Ok... so spent the morning dealing with that and trying to put it in its place. Went to church with my S and had to step out a few times to get myself together. After church my mom offered to take us out for lunch and then buy S some clothes. Kept me away from the house so we went. Wish I'd been better company, especially for my S. Not very PMA today.

Wife finally called me as we were almost home. Though she did call me. She had finally woken up after getting home at 4am. My mom gave me the hard press today about my W. I haven't shared our issues with my mom, but she sees my W's FB feed. She sees the drinking stories and photos. She pointed out that every other weekend for the past two months my W has been out binge drinking. And she's right... guess I hadn't done the math.

So late afternoon my W gets a call asking her to go with some friends to a town two hours away for a music thing. Her going would mean she gets home at 2am (she has to leave for work at 6am), I have to pick up SS and SD, and then I have to answer (yet again) why mom isn't home and deal with the hurt feelings and let down. So I decide that I've had enough. I go upstairs and ask to talk.

So I know R talk is a no-no, at the same time I'm trying to balance no-R talk against setting boundaries and getting needs met. I tell her my concerns about her going and the SS/SD pickup. She gets angry, telling me that she a) she wasn't going to go and b) if she had gone she was already planning to have her sister pick up the SS/SD so that she didn't have to use me. However, I point out that this still doesn't solve the issue of how the SS/SD feel. I don't care about being the taxi... that's minor, it's that they get home, mom is gone, and I have to soothe them. Which, not being their dad or mom, is a tough call for me. I will do it, because they need it, but to do it so mom can go on yet another music and drinking adventure is not okay with me.

She says she understands and then this launches a full-on R talk. We rehash some of what we've been over, and then she drops the mini-bomb that she has a date in mind. By June of next year we will be apart. Divorced or separated she doesn't know, but by June we will be apart. And we will have our debts paid off too... ok, so that part is yet to be seen.

Then we go through a new list:
- She wants a R after the split. She wants it to be positive and us to be friends. She wants me to feel comfortable coming over and putting my S to bed and sharing time with SS/SD.
- She does not want to be married - to anyone. She wants to be on her own until she gets her mess of psych issues figured out.
- She says that she has all this welled up resentment. Years worth of feeling that I bought her love or manipulated her into loving me. This was the only item I did not own, pushed back on, and showed anger/emotion. This is BS IMO and I told her that. And I added that if anyone was manipulated it was me who took care of the family and got my mom to sign on to a $40,000 loan so she could go to nursing school for two year. Really? Who took advantage of whom?
- She wants counseling and wants to start soon. She says that she feels she can trust absolutely no one. And this is part of our core issue I believe - after all, how can you bond with your spouse if you don't trust him/her? And no matter what they do you will never trust them because you have abandonment and trust issues?
- She hates it where SS and my relationship has gone over the years. She wishes I had realized how sour it had gotten sooner. I counter that I wish she had said something any time over the past few years. She replies that she was too chicken and her security needs didn't allow her to say anything critical.
- She sees my changes and admires them, but feels they are only being done to save an already failed marriage. I tell her they originally were done to save the marriage, but since then they have grown into doing it because I know they need to be done.
- She says she can forgive the past issues, but knows in her heart that she can never love me again because of her built up resentment.

So all of that sucked a lot and hurt a lot. Not a ton of new stuff, but painful and what's hard is she is so certain. I know, I know... WAS show certainty because it's where they are. I know that June is a long way away and lots can happen in that time. But it's still hard to be told this. To have a date and know there's finite time.

This talk led to discussion of some specifics. We talked about our house which is a very messy situation. Messier than I think she realized; so I left her with much to think about there. We talked about custody and I made it very clear I would demand/expect at least 50/50. We talked about money... she hasn't run any numbers yet but knows it will be hard. I've run the numbers, it will be extremely hard I don't think she gets that fully yet.

And that fundamentally we're not compatible. That she's a party until early in the morning girl and I'm not. Not that she's ever asked us to party until early in the morning, nor have I offered either.

I'm just so angry and frustrated right now. It's like the changes make no dent, no sway from her path. We talked about her meds tonight too and I never realized that she started her meds one month before the bomb. That a week before the bomb she was having severe suicidal ideations. That she still has death thoughts at least twice a week.

I just feel so lost. At the same time I feel like I can start to detach. I can't do anything for her. She feels she has a path she must follow. No matter that this path will tear apart a family, hurt three kids, and impact their lives for years... she is just determined.

I have to detach and stop riding this ride. I have to work on me and ready myself for June should that come to pass. To be the healthy one in this R and provide support for my S and as best i can for SS/SD who I care about deeply.

And I know all that... but yet I can't seem to stop crying tonight.

We went to bed on good terms... we talked and had good conversation even though the Brewers are going to fall short of the World Series.

Just wish this insanity would stop.

[2thepoint]

WHG - I'm really sorry you had such a crappy day. All I can offer for now is that you are not alone in this struggle. I think if you continue to focus on YOU and let the chips fall where they may, you will feel better about the outcome. Spend time with the kids, with or without their mom. It is the right thing to do for you and for them. Try to get some sleep tonight and hopefully after a restful night a clear head will help you find your path.

Be well!

[jbnati]

WHG, man I'm so sorry about your day. It sounds like you did everything you could possibly do during the R talk. Just listen and validate. I think it takes a little while to come down from this kind of talk.

You're right, a lot can happen between now and June. You never know. Stay the course. Keep working on yourself. Become that best you that you can be. You have to keep the changes going for them to be permanent and believable.

I hope your W is getting some help. She definitely sounds like she is on the crazy train and is very confused. Continue to work on your detachment so you're not riding the crazy train. Your W is not thinking very rationally right now.

[Telemark]

WHG,

I was reading your latest post and shaking my head...because it is nearly identical to my own situation; the only real difference is that my W is not the party-until-the-wee-hours type. But the comments - the lack of trust, not wishing to be married to anyone, the built-up resentment and suspicion of our changes - same script.

You are in a little better position in that you have already recognized the fatal danger of snooping. I continued that behavior and it eventually put the nail in the coffin. After admitting her EA with an old HS boyfriend, who lived 1700 miles away, my W promised to go NC with him...3 times. Each time it would last a week or two, then she would be back to the EA. And each time I would continue to check her e-mails, cell phone, etc. She is now living with the OM, who moved all 1700 miles to live with her.

The best advice I can offer is to completely - COMPLETELY - leave her EA/PA/whatever it may be, alone. Because there is absolutely nothing you can do about it or her. That goes against every instinct, I know...we want to take charge of the situation, demand that our WAS's honor their vows, not use us as plan B and act with some moral integrity. To not confront the EA/PA and reclaim what is rightfully ours (our marriage) makes us feel weak and pathetic. We want to fight for our marriages,damn it! But as you already know, WAS's are not thinking with any kind of logic or rationale.

You can't have a functional relationship with a dysfunctional partner.

If you truly want to save your marriage - and I see it is the 2nd for both of you, so the "odds" are already against you - you need to put as much emotional distance between you and your W as possible, which is almost impossible when you are under the same roof (again, I speak from experience). If you are not a good actor, you will learn to be, because every word, every action, every emotion you show will be analyzed by your W to justify her actions. Do not give her reasons to say, "See? He was mean/controlling/weak/ or ____________, and I just had to leave."
And that still does not guarantee she will not leave anyway.

But even if that does happen you will know you did everything you could, with honesty, integrity and love - to save things.

[workinghardguy]

Thanks TM and JB for the kind words. It's been a tough day and morning. Still processing I think. TM, you're completely right that I can't have a functional relationship with a dysfunctional partner... that's part of how we got here, as I attempted to compensate instead of calling her on her behaviors.

I think of our talk yesterday where she used an example of when we would go to Florida each year. We'd go as part of an all week conference for my job. She'd have the days to herself while I was at the conference and then go out at night. In our talk she pointed out that most nights in Florida we were back at the hotel by 9 or 10pm and in bed by midnight. We weren't out until 2am or closing down the bars. I validated that... pointed out she could've asked to go out and I would've tried it. Maybe liked it.

But then this morning I also though, wait a minute... I was at a conference. With people from around the country who know me and know my boss. I can't show up hungover or worse yet just screw around and sleep through it... it's bad for my employment and just not right. At the same time, could we have done one night or two nights of craziness... yes, we could've. Ah whatever... Guess I'm all over the map.

I'm working on the emotional distance thing. If nothing else her resoluteness is helping in that. I found myself thinking this morning of the upsides... less bills, less stress, way more disposable income for me, and not being tied to her rollercoaster life. The hard part is then I immediately think of the downsides too of not tucking my S in every night, not reading to him every night, and losing time with him. That's where I lose it.

As far as the acting... thankfully I'm a pretty good actor... until a few years ago I was even in a local acting troupe So I have that going for me I guess.

My heart tells me perhaps there's still a chance. Maybe if she gets C it will help. Both of my C have told me the med she is on, Wellbutrin, has a terrible track record for helping people maintain R's. So maybe if she gets help that can be addressed.

But my head is telling me that this if we ever recon it won't be until after we've been apart for some time. So I'm working on forcing myself to face that reality and deal with it. Without breaking down every time.

The support is great... thanks everyone.