You are doing what is perfectly natural. Expecting his actions to make sense. Trying to understand him. Wanting to know what to do and terrified of doing the wrong thing. Here's the thing you must remember.
MLC=confusion
and
Believe none of what they say and 50% of what they do
These are very true statements. The problem in understanding MLC is that the MLCer often does not appear lost or confused. They often say things in very direct terms. They often appear to be enjoying their new lives. They often appear to be determined in their actions. But they are not. That is why you cannot believe what they say and often can't even belive what they do. They have lost a connection to themselves and are lost and confused. Scared and depressed. Unsure of their next actions and yet sure they must do something. Some act out in anger, some in fear, some are open with some of these emotions. Some are not. Most blame the spouse because we were with them when this all happened so it must be our fault right?
You cannot do anything to FIX him. You cannot do anything to wake him up. Some couples try MC. I have stated numerous times, I am NOT a fan of MC when an MLCer is trying to return. Over and over, we remind newbies that the MLCer is broken and we didn't cause their MLC. And that's right. We all could have done better in our marriages. But you can't cause an MLC. So then, why would MC fix an MLC? It doesn't. I am certainly in favor of INDEPENDENT counseling for the MLCer. They are the ones that really need the assistance. But IMHO, you can't work on fixing a marriage when one of the people is very very broken. The broken person needs to heal first. THEN the marriage can be reassessed.
When my H left, I yelled, screamed, cried, did all the things other people did. I threatened, I reminded him of good times etc. It dawned on me one day though that every time I initiated a R talk, it only seemed to make things worse. That was the turning point for me. I changed my attitude, GAL, and discovered DB. I read a lot, looked inward a lot and made some changes FOR ME that made me a better person. From that point forward, I never initiated a R talk. I supported H in whatever he did. I even bought him a mattress for his new apartment after learning that he was sleeping on an air mattress because he was worried about finances (that totally freaked him out). Even when he would subtly hint at divorce issues, I'd simply say OK and move on. He was one of those that mentioned it a few times but never seemed to get going on things.
An MLCer often needs to leave and experience life on their own. It's kind of the "set them free and if they come back to you it was meant to be" type of scenario. Some will, some won't. Some may take years to wake up. Others never do. In my case, my H watched me move on with my life and realized that in all his efforts to get his own and live like he wanted to live, he really wasn't any happier. It wasn't until HE initiated a R talk that I knew he was ready to reassess. So in answer to your question, YES, marriages can be saved by not having R talks. They have to happen eventually, but both need to be ready and it sounds like your H is not ready.
The intimacy part of your R does put a wrinkle into the situation. There's no right answer since every situation is different. In the end, you need to look within and see what is best for YOU, NOT what would be best to save the marriage. If you are uncomfortable ML, then you need to respectfully find a way to let your feelings known in a non accusatory way and end it. If you are OK with it, then you have to be OK with it as the full package. Meaning, you have to accept that his MLC will make him non affectionate and weird afterwards and you have to be OK with that and NOT let it affect you. You want normalcy and you can't have it. That stinks but that's what the situation is. You need to accept it, own it, decide on your course of action FOR YOU, and move forward.
"Love me when I least deserve it, for that is when I need it the most"
M18 Me39,H42 D16 Bomb 1/10 Moved out 3/10 OW 6/10 H wants to R,OW gone 11/10 H moves back 5/11 H wants to wear rings again 9/11
And yes, the reason why the advise you get here is not to have R talks its because people here have walked the same path you have and have saved their marriages. Pressuring your H to decide NOW, asking too many questions, showing him that you are miserable will only make him feel like a failure and will ultimately push him away.
I myself know of several people in real life who had problems with their M's and have advised me to do stop R talk, etc. I was hard headed and kept on going, until I did notice that everytime we did, things went down the drain.
Hold on, let him lead to it. Let him be, so when he finds himself, when he decides, its his decision, and not because you pushed him to it. You don't want him to stay because you forced him to make the decision, tight? You cannot force someone to be affectionate if he does not feel it. But again, he himself has said he loves you, and its great that he recognizes it. Many spouses in MLC even deny that they ever loved their spouses. Like mine.
Me:49 H:45 D:12 M:14 T:18 Bomb: 6/26/10 EA: 9/3/10, fizzled out slowly, now ??? 11/5/11 Retrouvaille Finally piecing.... Its peaceful at last, but we got a looong way to go
Thanks alb for all of those insights...angel, thank you too. I don't know if h will leave. So far he is stuck on being conflicted between me and our d, and freedom. I have made it clear to him there are no locks or prison bars..and that his being here is his choice. I stopped begging and pleading. I want this to be on him.
It has been really hard coming up with gal stuff because i cant drive and my location..but i think tha once i move, the opportunities will increase. I'm doing more gal stuff than i used to, and so far i think the effect has been positive.
It has actually been h that initiates the r talks and i hate it. I hate how it sometimes leads to his reminding me how conflicted he feels. He wants to be on his own, but doesnt want to leave. I dont want the r talks because i think things are better when we arent focusing on it. Then again, thats not going to stop the feelings he has inside...right?
I backslid today when he came in from work. I was already in a crap mood...and he was too. He was deep in another mlc mood..and i had to open my mouth and say "so what are you thinking about" and BAM the flood gate opens. He is stressed over moving too...and although he put in his notice at work he is second guessing his decision. We talked it out and he felt better. Then suddenly the energy shifted and his mood lightened and all was ok again.
Lately though i am seeing anger in him coming out...
Just read the stages. I think h is hitting the anger stage...but he has already done a lot of the things mentioned in replay. He sought the ea with ow. He said he did it because it made him feel better ( taking what he wants without caring how it would hurt me ) and chasing his youth.
The other day he told me he didnt want to be stuck working in a particular job forever and acted angry about it and i simply said to him " so dont" ...."its your choice" but even THAT made him mad.
He is truly angry about getting older and not having accomplished his dream of making music and writing that hit song....
He is rewriting history too....claims he was forced to give up his true self when he married me and had our d.
I do hope he makes it through...it is so hard to see him in this much pain
Hi Ctflor! Your situation seems to be going really well...you've found something that must be working. I'm going to try being laid back and relaxed too and see if it helps me.
You're lucky your H is interested in ML. I read something written by MWD maybe on the SSM forum, that said if you're comfortable with it go ahead...it helps stack the deck in your favor. Maybe if you get a chance to downplay it to him that might help him not feel pressure to downplay your expectations after ML. Something like 'hey we have needs and why not satisfy them with each other, don't read anything into it and I won't either'?
The R talks seem to be an opportunity for him to cement his insistence on separating. Can you shorten them? Validate that he feels how he does and then get 'busy' or take a phone call, or say, can we continue this later, there's a good show coming on tv? It was suggested to me that I should stop MC with my H because it gives him a reason to verbalize that he wants to leave. I'm thinking seriously about that. When we're not in MC it doesn't come up, so why create that opportunity? Can you avoid it in your situation?
Good luck with the move! Vent your anxiety here where it's safe. Maybe also don't be too excited about it either. Validate and be supportive/neutral with H. Otherwise he may feel a need to make sure you understand it doesn't mean he's staying.
Example from my situation. My H is preparing to leave for a year by learning the language of the country he's going to. I'm devastated, but also excited for him. I've been completely positive around the house about it. But - I love learning languages so we've all been going around the house repeating his Rosetta Stone CDs, and I've been suggesting to him renting movies in the language and finding him meetup groups that practice it. I noticed the more I do this the more short he gets with me and seems withdrawn. He doesn't even act like my ideas are helpful! I'm going to stop (don't do what's not working). I think I went overboard with supporting him and he's pulling back. Maybe analagous to your move - it does bring good things for you, but if your current reactions positive or negative seem to generate pull-back from him then try to react differently or less.
Hope you have a good day today.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Oh yeah, I noticed he reacts angrily when you point out his available choices or say "so don't". Maybe when he vents don't be helpful, just acknowledge his feelings with something non-committal like "uh huh" or "that must be rough".
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Advina, thanks for these insights. I think i will respond differently to h next time he expresses frustration and anger. I admire your strength and courage. H is only going to he gone a month or so and i feel like a wreck inside. We have never been apart, not even one overnight.
Mc worries me. He has expressed his confusion and inner conflict about choosing me or freedom. The mc sat there and nodded and entertained the idea with h ...what would happen if he chose being free. The mc seems to be focusing on directing h's thoughts in that direction and encouraging that scenario. I interjected and said i felt uncomfortable with this....and the mc held up her hand and asked me to allow this conversation to continue. H then got quiet and said he wanted to keep the goal of staying together in mind...but then the c directed attention back to that scenario of freedom and life without me. We both felt upset the rest of the evening...he went to bed for the very first time without hugging me and saying i love you. I want to propose tuat we end with this therapist and pick back up after the move with someone new...
This morning when h left for work, he came to me and held me for a long time and kissed me a few times. Said i love you twice before going. I felt like he connected with me again after last night's distant unsettled feelings.
I also found out something ...and that is my h is looking toward me to be stable right now. This all came up when i suggested going to campus for my classes when we move...and finding a place nearby. Then i talked about dropping and going for a b.s in psych. He flipped out and said "why cant you just stick with what you are doing?" and he went off about finding a place near campus. It wasnt until i said i would just stick to our plan now..That made him calm down.
I think thats another reason he flips out when i break down and cry or my mood shifts. I think he feels he has enough going on in his head he can barely cope with...maybe he desires me to be the strong one now?
Forgot to add, i think h and i do better when we dont talk about r. Now, i dont know if its unhealthy or ok to play the avoidance game. I dont know if it can make things worse by NOT addressing things...but, things are more peaceful and better when r talks dont go on. We joke, laugh, talk, and enjoy each others company as we did before all this began. He comes closer to me it seems. More hugs..more feelings of a connectedness. As soon as r talks and his feelings anout wanting to be alone ensue...His wall is back up again.
Hi Ctflor, avoid R talk. You know it sets you back. You're not "playing an avoidance game," you're trying to heal your M to the point where R talk would be beneficial and you're not there yet.
I would be concerned about the direction your MC was going too. Whatever her goal was, she was making you both uncomfortable about pursuing a line of thought you're both trying to avoid. If H feels trapped and overwhelmed, he'll feel worse hypothesizing about the future and he'll feel better living in the moment. My MC sessions have been most helpful when they weren't hypothetical but were concrete and practical. What can we do THIS WEEK to feel better THIS WEEK. What were we doing wrong that we didn't realize and how can we practice doing it right, THIS WEEK?
What are you changing about you? Taking classes sounds like a winner - both for you and because it brought a smile to H's face. He mentioned wanting a "strong" person. Do you know yet what he meant by strong? Did you not feel safe asking what that meant at the time? What I'm getting at is that maybe in addition to becoming "stronger" you might also need to work on communication - really hearing him and asking questions - as long as it doesn't make him pull back.
He seems to want you to be emotionally stable, not confused/uncertain (eg IT vs psych degree), and possibly more independent (not needing him for all your transportation?).
Detachment is key to your emotional strength - if you can be calm and content when he's losing it (because his emotions are his and not yours) that's good.
When you're feeling uncertain, don't use him as your sounding board - vent here or to your family about moving concerns and talk to guidance counselors or hiring managers about your degree. He probably can't handle the indecision stage of your thought process because he's got indecision enough in his own head.
And unfortunately your health issues probably contribute to his feeling trapped. Can you get around independently of him? After you move will you be better able to? Be someone who could get along fine without him, whether you stay married or not.
You're really perceptive about how he responds to what you do - do more of what makes things peaceful and better - no R talks! Hang in there!
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Advina, a lot of things hit me last night.. about my role in this mess. I think h is in mlc, but I also think there are things I did that helped feed the fire.
When we came up here I fell into a depression because I was so unhappy here, and many many times I mistreated my h and took my anger out on him. And he just took it.. time and again. I know that I have not been a joy to live with at times. He has brought up these instances, since bd.
I have changes I need to make for me and for him.
I don't know if I have a total grasp on detachment, because I'm still on the roller coaster, feeling all of these feelings and going a long for the ride. I've tried so hard to get off of it. But one thing I can do is remain calm... and try to act as if. Sometimes I fail but when I can do it, I see more positive reactions.
I don't know if my health issues make him feel trapped.. he has always told me, "Your MS has nothing to do with me leaving". He has found a way to separate it in his mind somehow.
But I have some news so I'll move on to my more journal like post. Thanks so much for the insights Advina!
