Youngster's WAW Still Chooses OM!

[aeolianchaos]

I'm not sure why I'm keeping this a secret anymore. Maybe just in general because it's easier to keep a lid on things. I also feel that telling everybody would blow any possible chances of R and may even bring on some even nastier behavior from her. I don't feel like messing around with it for the time being.

Do what you need to.

Keep in mind that M has a lot of family dynamics to it.

Yes, it may make R more difficult. On the other hand you feel like you are being compelled to lie and deceive people who care about you. Thats also cr@ppy.

but the "mind movies" have been getting stronger and stronger, as have my emotions regarding them.

You don't need to be 'strong'.. strength isn't the answer here, man. Compartmentalizing is a great skill, but it isn't forever.. it gives you a chance to process things without thinking about them, but it doesn't mean you'll never think about it again.

Sometimes its about learning how to surf the waves.. you recognize those thoughts as thoughts, those emotions as emotions.. feel them deeply without telling yourself any new stories about it.

I had a strange desire to know the details. I'm not sure why. I just did

Its a normal response..

I feel so angry, so hurt, so betrayed. I sometimes wish that I could find a way to make her hurt like she's hurting me. What hurts the most is how she has herself convinced that she's doing nothing wrong and that I'm to blame for anything

Do you think causing her pain will bring you relief from your own suffering?

Why does it hurt you that she believes something?

Do you believe it, too?

Perhaps this is a good opportunity to look at how you feel about yourself, your wants, your needs, and your desires?

Sorry to kind of go on about this. It was just getting bottled up and I felt that I needed to release it. Where better than DB.com? I know that I will eventually get past this. Unfortunately, I feel stuck. A lot of me feels like I don't want to be with my W anymore because she has treated me so cruelly. Yet I think of dating anyone else and the idea just turns me off.

I appreciate that you are sharing how you feel and whats going on up there. It seems like you are getting in touch w/ something deeper and true about you.

I wouldn't worry about being with anyone either way right now. You will be with someone eventually but right now is the best time you've ever had to work on being with your self.

[westcoastfella]

If OM is so great she should want everyone to know how great and happy her and OM are

This one I noticed. She has already informed her family about him, but I don't believe that most of her friends know. What I've found intriguing is that her FB is strangely quiet these days when she used to be very active. No mention of OM has been made there. Also, her old pics are on her profile, all of which include the two of us (including an album full of our wedding pics). If she was really adamant about OM, those pics would be off of there in a heartbeat.

She is wayward man, nothing out of her mouth will make sense and believe absolutely none of it.

I have had to remind myself of this often-quoted mantra. As enticing as it is to take her words at face value, nearly ALL of her actions and words have smacked heavily of someone who wants badly to feel like she's sure she knows what she's talking about but really doesn't. She has been all over the place for months. I will keep this in mind once more.

You are all ready in LRT mode........you don't have anything to lose. Either you are going to let this A die out in a couple years.....expecting your totally WW to come to her senses.......or start fighting for what you want.....

Like I said, I don't think that this is the route that I'm going to take. Even Michele strongly advises against it, and who better to know than the Top DB-er? Michele says that most affairs die out in less than six months, and I believe that my W's A will be much the same. Honestly, her and OM have nothing in common. She has affaired-down big-time. She is probably stuck in the "lollipops and rainbows" phase of "love." Plus, it sounds like he's a huge jerk who is only showing her want she wants to see so he can stay with her and get some. The best thing I can do is go dark on her and allow her A to get starved of emotional support, friendship....you know, all of the important things about an R that she's been calling ME for. It's not my job to work this all out for her. It's hers. That's why I'm dropping the rope and focusing on me instead.

As for what she has told you about OM - S and M, really??? Ick. I think that just tells you something about how whacked she is right now. And I suspect her comment about his equipment may not even be true, just designed to hurt you - we already know she's capable of spewing the nastiest stuff. Don't get sucked in.

She told me early on that she saw this kind of sex as being "healing" to her in regards to her sexual trauma. For most of our R, my W didn't even like most regular vanilla sex. She had heavy flashbacks and vaginal pain, so we went for several years with very little sexual contact. I see her A as a misguided attempt to "regain" her sexuality. I just feel hurt that she convinced herself that she couldn't regain it with me...

Also, the sex comments didn't seem designed to hurt me. She explained his "largeness" as being mostly irrelevant and once described sex with him as "eh..." It was like she was treating me like one of her GFs rather than her ex-husband. It was incredibly bizarre. From the sounds of it, she still wants to treat me like one of her GFs. Not gonna happen anymore, though.

Yes, it may make R more difficult. On the other hand you feel like you are being compelled to lie and deceive people who care about you. Thats also cr@ppy.

Therein lies my dilemma...

Sometimes its about learning how to surf the waves.. you recognize those thoughts as thoughts, those emotions as emotions.. feel them deeply without telling yourself any new stories about it.

Great advice.

Do you think causing her pain will bring you relief from your own suffering?

Why does it hurt you that she believes something?

Do you believe it, too?

Don't worry, these feelings are nothing that I would ever act on. Causing her suffering would not make me feel any better. In addition, I hear that WAWs who have A's many times secretly struggle, even if it doesn't look like it on the outside. I guess the reason that it hurts is that my perception has always been way too wrapped up into HER perception of events. So when she makes this thing out like it's a good thing for her and I was the one who pushed her into it, it often causes me to feel as though that's all true (even though I don't believe it at heart...it just messes with my sense of reality...)

[westcoastfella]

Just updating to say that I feel a lot better. Whenever I get down about all of this nonsense or feel that I need a good reality check, I head over to SurvivingInfidelity.com and take a look at the FAQs on that site. One particular FAQ is titled "To a BS from a WS," and it features many questions asked by LBS' that are subsequently answered by former WAS'. It stands to reason that a former WAS would understand more about the WAS mindset than anybody.

Basically, these answers reassure me that no, my W's affair is not my fault in any way; yes, her A has way more to do with her brokenness than my perceived inadequacy as an H; yes, my W is acting like a total alien right now and will hopefully in time return to Planet Earth; and no, I should probably not believe anything that comes out of her mouth.

Also, it makes me realize that my W could have done a lot more to save our M than she did. I rarely felt like we were a "team" when it came to problems in our M toward the end. She basically would tell me that she was upset about things (usually blaming only me for her problems), then essentially said, "Change this or else." Sorry, but that approach rarely works with anybody. If she had wanted to work on us, there were much better ways to go about it than she did. (Especially by having an A, but we all know that.)

[Truegritter]

West

Anger is part of the process. If you are not feeling it and processing it you haven't moved forward.

If this stuff doesn't make you angry, then I venture to say you don't have much self respect.

And I know you do. You have to work toward getting that back.

You don't get it by hurting someone the way they hurt you.

Turn the other cheek? Not a sign of weakness or meekness.

As sign of strength. I look at it as saying (by acting) that you know what you believe and value and NOTHING will happen until YOU decide it for YOURSELF.

It says to the world (and your W)

"Is that all you got? That doesn't break me."

I am going to say this because I beleive it and have lived it:

You are not dealing with a typical wayward W. Your W is dealing with trauma that has caused her deep emotional and phsychological damage.

She must decide to deal with it and she won't suddenly "come to her senses" by you exposing the affair.

She won't "have more respect for you" because you expose her A either.

She doesn't respect herself so how can she respect you. You are the one causing all her pain in her mind right now.

You are the perpetrator and she is the victim.

Do you want to continue in that role?

Will it help?

There is no one answer for all situations IMO. And there is a spectrum along which I think each WAS may lie. At one extreme let's say is batchit crazy and the other is rational, well adjusted, healthy person.

The difference in the two?

One is leaving because they can't stand themselves and is blaming you and the M for it.

The other is leaving because after a period of unhappiness and contemplation they don't choose YOU.

One is confused and the other is not.

Where along the spectrum is your W?

In any case you do not control another and the sooner you realize that and stop placing your self worth in the hands of another

...actively trying to force an outcome,

making your own happiness contingent on the actions or reactions of your spouse,

the better your life will be.

And maybe, maybe your M can be saved by this decision by you.

[westcoastfella]

Thanks much for keeping it real, Gritter. Your reasons for not exposing her A are very similar to the ones I already have. I'm dealing with a very different animal here. Exposing her A would only lead her to start pulling out some nasty punches. If me telling her that I'm going dark caused her to start threatening me, exposure would only lead to worse consequences.

To know that it's okay to feel angry, sad, hurt, betrayed, the whole range -- is a good thing. I grew up feeling emotionally shut off and numb. For some reason, I learned early on that feelings are not normal and only cause pain. I must allow myself to feel (without wallowing, of course).

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned self-worth and happiness. For years, I trained myself to believe that my W's appraisal of my worth was the only one that mattered. I also trained myself to believe that I would never be happy without her. I have unfairly placed the responsibility of my self-esteem and my enjoyment in life in her hands -- unfair to me, and unfair to her as well.

This is the toughest part for sure. Her actions have caused me to plunge into deep wells of depression and terrible levels of self-esteem. I guess the only thing that's going to help this is treating myself well, GAL-ing, and keeping a far distance from my W. I know that one for sure. That's why I went dark -- every time I speak to her, even for a moment, I just feel lousier about myself. I'm so sick of even having the barest contact with her, it amazes me. I never though that I would get to the point where I want to by and large sever contact with her but -- I done did.

[westcoastfella]

My visit with my family was pretty good, even though my dad started drinking heavily toward the end. He's a good guy, but his drinking has always been a problem. He will not stop for any reason. I have already accepted that he will probably drink himself into the grave. My little sister and I talked about it over the phone.

I came back home yesterday. At two points during the day, I caught myself overthinking in the form of out-loud prayer. Prayer is great, but not if you're using it as an excuse to negatively overthink your life. Instead of feeling better, it just made me feel worse. I re-read the book today by Susan Nolen-Hoeksema in order to remind me why I don't want to do that anymore. It truly is an addiction of the mind that I want to kick. It has only led to bad things for years.

My W is coming into town this weekend. I'm nervous because I don't know what to expect. The last communication that I got from her was that nasty reply to my "darkness" e-mail. Since then, nothing. Unfortunately, this will likely turn out to be a situation where I just have to play it by ear -- I'm guessing that it's a pretty typical DB-er manuever.

However, I am planning on keeping any chit-chat extremely light and trying to keep her visit focused on seeing the rabbit. I will not let her manipulate this visit into something that I don't want it to be. Also, I will try to avoid arguing at all if possible, but I fear that it may come to that. She might try sticking to her tactic of demanding more money out of me, and I want to make it clear that I don't owe her anything else.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[aeolianchaos]

Hey WCF,

I re-read the book today by Susan Nolen-Hoeksema in order to remind me why I don't want to do that anymore. It truly is an addiction of the mind that I want to kick. It has only led to bad things for years.

I think I'm waiting on this book. Is the title "Are you an Overthinker?"

I think, like you, I tend to apply my brilliant mind to problems in the belief that it will somehow meet my need for ... something. What I'm starting to recognize is that sometimes all that thinking is just a misguided strategy for meeting that need - one that leads to more suffering.

There is a risk for some of us to spend too much time inside of our heads and get wrapped up in very high-level thinking. A good way to balance this is to consciously choose concrete actions and steps we can take to further move us towards our goals.

(This is also what I plan on telling people in job interviews.. "What's your weakness"?)

Both kinds of thinking are valuable, and I would argue that meta-cognition plays a huge role in many areas. It can be a powerful motivator and an outstanding function to possess.

It can also cripple/paralyze us when it isn't the kind of thinking we need to be engaged in.

As far as what to do about your weekend.. I have some recommended reading. Assuming you know what you want to do and how you want to react.

Dr. Heidi Grant Halvorson's blog "The Science of Success" lays out some very good strategies for making sure you 'get it done' Lots of very good, tested, wisdom.

I recently came across a blog post I love, and I want to share it with anyone who isn't going to be dealing w/ hiring me. I keep re-reading it and it puts a lot in perspective.

The post is titled "The Short and Sweet Guide to Being F'n Awesome" (I censored that..). The blog is called inoveryourhead.net You can google it. Read it, and let me know if it changed your perspective it all.

[westcoastfella]

Actually, the title is "Women Who Think Too Much." Even though the book is geared towards women because it's women who traditionally overthink, it's recommended reading for an overthinker of either gender. Every time I read that book, I think to myself, "This is exactly what I do! Why do I keep doing it if I know that it's so bad for me?"

I actually find that I don't need to think nearly as much as I do. If I just allow my mind to put a vexing question on the backburner, the best answer possible will eventually come to me, and I will act on it. Actively overthinking, however, only causes me to feel more depressed and angry about my life, as well as confuses me more than I was before.

I very much liked that "F'n Awesome" post, thought it was highly amusing. Not sure if it impacted me all that much, though. The "Success" blog is a good one, I'll have to comb through that one later on.

[westcoastfella]

I just wanted to take the time today to reflect on things that I could have done differently in my R with my W. It's easy during this time to get indignant and find myself in a "she's-all-wrong-and-I'm-all-right" mode. True, she should not have tried to resolve our problems and her unhappiness with an A. At the same time, I have spent these last few months reflecting on things I could have done better.

--The first year of our R, I was a total mess. I had never been in an R with anyone before (took me 18 years!) because of various issues with social awkwardness and a troubled upbringing (alcoholic household, etc.) You could say that I sort of lived in my own kind of world before meeting her. In many ways, I no longer recognize this version of myself at all.

During the first year, I made all sorts of terrible mistakes. I actively lied to her a lot because I wanted to cover up unlikable behavior. There were times that I questioned my attraction to her because I had developed a type of girl who I thought that I wanted. In terms of tastes, I pictured someone who was "alternative," into indie movies and obscure music, that kind of thing. In terms of body type, I always pictured a girl with very large breasts and a skinny frame. My W had a "thicker" frame than I originally wanted with slightly smaller breasts than the kind I pictured. During this time, I developed these weird obsessions about impressing two different women; one on campus who I had never met before, the other being one of my W's closest friends. The first one met the "tastes" schema and the second one fit both.

In addition, I also (hate to say this but I have to) pleasured myself while thinking about multiple women, including my W's friend and some other girls that I had gone to high school with. At the time, I felt that this was normal behavior. I'm still not really sure about it because I have heard of men doing this but just not telling their W's or GF's. In any case, I told my W about all of this because I felt very guilty later on, and she was very hurt and angry. She felt that these things were like A's and did not forgive me for any of this for several years. In fact, in the last couple of years, she would still throw the thing about her friend in my face just to push my buttons, even though she knew that I wanted nothing to do with her or no longer wanted to think about her in any context.

--After a year or so, I developed my special form of OCD. Essentially, it revolved around anything that I thought might upset my W. Usually this concerned thoughts that I had about other women (would I find this woman more attractive than my W if I had never met my W? etc.) or thoughts about my W's own body (did I not like the way this body part looked at this moment? etc.) I also had a lot of thoughts about my W's friend because I had felt so guilty about my obsession with her. These thoughts caused massive anxiety in me.

I would spend hours trying to figure out the answers to these "questions," then often would feel that confessing them to my W was the only option to relieve the pressure. This made it so that I slowly brought down my W's self-esteem just to relieve the anxiety that I felt. At first, she didn't care about the thoughts, but she said that after a while, she believed them to be real because I couldn't stop thinking them. She always told me that the simple answer to all of this would be to stop analyzing my thoughts and just let them pass unanswered, but the anxiety also felt too great. This was selfish of me. I later got much better about all of this in our M, but the damage had already been done.

Much of her attraction to OM is rooted in the "positive mirroring" that he gives to her. She has said that he makes her feel like "the only girl in the world." (Probably because he's a player and knows how to puff up a woman's self-esteem.) It was also based on the idea that she felt he always spoke the truth about everything. (As we know, this later turned out not to be the case, but she's still with him, so go figure on that one.)

--I was not much of a "man" in our R. I was a pleaser. I don't think I've ever stood up to my W and refused to back down. I began to feel as though I were being selfish and awful if I was not pleasing her in every way. If she disagreed with me, she would guilt-trip me, cry, get angry, or reason with me until I eventually recanted my stance.

I realize looking back that there were times when my W would indirectly try to make me stand up to her or other people in our life, but I was too scared and too people-pleasing to do it. After some years of this, I think that she just lost respect for me. Hence, my recent desire to stop being a "friend" to her A. I just won't do it anymore.

--Many, many times, when my W would express dissatisfaction with something I did, I would get defensive, try to deflect the blame onto her or away from me, explain away why I shouldn't be to blame, or just get moody and pout. Often, my W explained that all she wanted was an apology for making her feel bad. I never got this. I always felt as though I was being attacked and had to attack in kind. Not a good way to go.

So there we go. There were various problems here and there other than this, but these were the main rifts. I have realized looking back that there was much that I did that weakened our M. Whether I get back together with my W or move onto someone new, I have learned the hard way to do better than what I have done. I really do want to change these things about myself, and I will.

[kml]

You know, "confessing" is one classic form OCD can take. Sometimes it even takes the form of confessing to things you didn't do.

Don't beat yourself up over your OCD - it is a brain illness involving the basal ganglia. You do need to recognize it and get help for it, and it might be fruitful to apologize to your W for the corrosive effect that it probably had on her self-esteem. Medication can help, strep infections can sometimes be a trigger (as can Lyme disease) so it can be worthwhile to screen for those.

All that being said - your wife's behavior towards you at present is pretty inappropriate and dysfunctional. You may want to think twice about whether she is capable of being in a healthy relationship with you once your OCD is managed. I'm guessing HER problems are bigger than yours.