I just continue to wonder if separation really breeds separation or if in this sitch we actually need it -- for her to really spend time with (not just the incessant texting of a 13 year old and the occasional hours on the weekend) with OW and really see what she's like. Move past some of the infatuation and see reality. Meanwhile I can begin to heal. I'm just RAW so much of the time when W is home.
IS, I really think it cuts both ways. On one hand, you do have that risk of separation breeding separation. It also limits the time you can DB. Worst of all, it limits the time you have with your S. OTOH, it gets you away from the drama. You have a lot less pressure. You don't feel like you're on stage all the time trying to DB. It can give your W a taste of reality. She can really get a chance to miss you.
I suggest not forcing it, but if it happens, play the hand you're dealt. You can even act "as if" it's going to help the situation. She doesn't need your permission to move out.
I'm so sorry you're having some rough days right now. ((()))
re whether you need the sep or if it'll breed more separation...
look at the reality of NOW...which is a lot of tension and stress and unproductive R talks and obnoxious texting and her "dreaming of OW" --
all of which are NOT conducive to your healing OR her seeing you in a new way.
Some space might be. Does absence make the heart grow fonder? Or go wander?
Obviously it depends.
But you don't have much choice in this my friend,
so whatever hand you get dealt, you have to play it well.
Have you really considered my own sitch-the signature block? We were apart, although there were visits, for 2 YEARS....after 25 y/o of marriage. (Just had our 30th )
I found that the sep at first lowered the tension right away. H missed us more than I realized and when you have your time with s4, she will too.
I was able to express myself and CHANGE without him seeing me under what I felt was a microscope. I could not do that with him there, for whatever reason.
Later...I met OMs and for the most part, felt that the old H I had, was better suited for me. Nothing serious happened. But the good news was that I found myself at least attracted to and attractive to OMs and eventually I felt a connection with 1-2, but
the better news was that I really felt more committed to working things out with H if the chance arose. So I'd be fine either way. Do you get that? My choice of h was mostly confirmed...unless he was going to stay MLCing forever, in which case I knew I had options. And those options did not sukk...
My point is that OM/OWs are not always the death knell for a m. Sometimes we end up validating our original choice.
Your w has not had the chance to discover the flaws in OW (but your pointing them out DELAYS her discoveries...it does NOT speed things up for you. PLEASE...here's free legal advice I give to ALL prospective clients when arrested...SHUT UP!!
I'm positive of that.
Please say nothing of her to your w.
I know I know, it'll come up... and if you feel FORCED and or it's spewing out of you--- then at least make the comments about s4...and confess that you are "not the most objective person to comment about OW, but..." and stress something stable for HIM and your r with him.
Val's suggestion about a texting boundary is a good one. I'd probably handle it with some bemused incredulity b/c she's so rebellious right now, like she IS acting rude and adolescent...You could say something like "Excuse me (feign shock) "but are you texting her WHILE we are talking about our r, or our son? Really? That seems "appropriate" to you? That behavior shows common courtesy and respect and compassion? WOW
I guess We really are living on different planes..." (nice nod to OW"s higher plane...)
and YOU walk out of the room. Tell her you two can talk when she can focus for 15 minutes on the son you have together and his future...
and btw, I would not have a conversation last more than 15 minutes ( as you have to process whatever just got shared)
don't keep it going any longer- unless it's going clearly unambiguously well....
Make sense?
((( )))
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
In Shock how are you my friend. I don't know if you have seen the 37 rules that Sandi2 created. But here they are.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives becausehe/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned change
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
Accuray posted this elsewhere not sure if you saw it but it is pretty powerful and tells you how to deal with a WAW
quote=Accuray]Hello COG,
I've been reading Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" and it seems to apply directly to your sitch. In the book, he does recommend bringing things to crisis, you should give it a read because he gives a prescription for how to do it, and what to do after the fact. Here's a quote:
"The precipitated crisis first, must be accompanied by an entire change of attitude. Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."
"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. His secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. He will not sit down and explain his inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."
"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with her hiding her cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than she should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."
"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. She knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. She has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"
"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this woman that events are swirling out of control and may take her in directions she has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."
Finally:
"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and she begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, she's coming your way. She's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. She's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for her to observe that changes are occurring which she neither controls nor understands. Tell her nothing. She *needs* to wonder."
It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, she will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.
Hope that helps [/quote]
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
hello in shock, Having been reading up on your sitch for a while now. Sorry you are going though these things. I am in somewhat similar sitch. My s is due to leave very soon, long distance sep. As much as I dread it on one hand, on the other hand I am looking forward to it because as the other posters are saying, it is almost impossible to move on to the healing and introspection and changing that we have to do while significant other is around. We are never totally comfortable. As much as I'm going to hate seeing her go, I know that it must happen if any change is to occur.
Your s has to work on her problems, you have to work on yours, and you cant do that properly while sig other is around.
This is what everyone has been telling me, my ic, friends, others on this board. Hope it helps, hang in there, Gunny
m 54 XW 48 m 12 t 14 bomb 6-11 s 10-11 wife moved to other state 10-21-11 d 9-12
O GOD THY SEA IS SO GREAT AND MY BOAT IS SO SMALL!
Accuray posted this elsewhere not sure if you saw it but it is pretty powerful and tells you how to deal with a WAW
quote=Accuray]Hello COG,
I've been reading Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" and it seems to apply directly to your sitch. In the book, he does recommend bringing things to crisis, you should give it a read because he gives a prescription for how to do it, and what to do after the fact. Here's a quote:
"The precipitated crisis first, must be accompanied by an entire change of attitude. Instead of begging, pleading, wringing your hands...you as the vulnerable partner must appear strangely calm and assured. The key word is confidence, and it is of maximum importance. Your manner should say, 'I believe in me, I am not afraid. I can cope, regardless of the outcome. I know something I'm not talking about. I've had my day of sorrow, and I'm through crying..."
"Not that you should say these things with words, or course. In fact, the less said about your frame of mind, the better. It's your private business. One of the great errors made by the vulnerable lover when things begin to deteriorate is to talk too much. His secure partner is noncommunicative, evasive, deceptive, and mysterious. He will not sit down and explain his inner feelings to the one who desperately needs that information."
"I'm recommending that you, the one who has sought to hold the marriage together, now choose your words more carefully too. It is as though you and your mate have been involved in a table game with her hiding her cards and you permitting yours to be seen. This has given the independent partner more information than she should have had, especially about the pain you are experiencing. It is time to be more discreet. No more should you reveal your every thought and plan."
"It is important during this time of crisis not to do predictable things. Having lived with you for years, your partner has you analyzed to a tee. She knows what bugs you, what makes you laugh, and what makes you cry. She has memorized all your little 'prerecorded' phrases that sprinkle your conversation. My advice is that you change these tapes. Don't offer suggestions when you would typically do so. Don't be predictable!"
"Your purpose, you see, is to convince this woman that events are swirling out of control and may take her in directions she has not anticipated. The old rules don't apply. And why is this new mystery advantageous? Because one of the reasons your lover has lost interest in the relationship is that the challenge is gone. It's become so monotonous and routine. Hence, you would be wise to turn the whole thing upside down."
Finally:
"An interesting thing happens when this kind of quiet confidence suddenly replaces tears and self-pity. Curiousity infects the aloof party, and she begins to probe for details. For the first time in months, perhaps, she's coming your way. She's saying 'You seem different tonight,' and 'I hope you're beginning to get over our problems'. She's baiting you to find out what's going on inside. It is uncomfortable for her to observe that changes are occurring which she neither controls nor understands. Tell her nothing. She *needs* to wonder."
It goes on to say that despite your partner's stoic appearance, she will be wrestling with feelings of guilt and self-doubt. There is still a tiny spark for you there, and you have to give it space to kick up into a flame versus smothering it and snuffing it out.
Hope that helps
[/quote]
great quote...but just fyi, it's DBing philosophy to a "T". Just sayin'...
really read the DB and Div Remedy books thoroughly and choose to follow them
OR find another approach.
Where they are alike it's fine but sometimes I find that people mix approaches and that's not really giving either approach, a fair try.
The DB and DR books are only different from each other, in that DB was first, and it sets up the underlying belief system in solution based therapy AND the stats on divorce, whereas Div Remedy goes to the techniques a bit faster (but both books contain the methods).
just fyi
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
You are obviously very smart and very capable of using your mind. Imagine if you applied that use of your mind to rationalize something.. to convince yourself of X, Y, or Z.
So.. imagine if you had a STRONG egoic motivation for doing that. How capably could you rationalize your behaviors?
I'm sure there is a lot of that going on with your W, and no amount of reasoning is going to get through that wall until something clicks in her own mind, on her own time.
In the meantime, you've got to take the best care of yourself that you can. Not just to distract, but to grow beyond this moment in time.
If you get the opportunity, I'd recommend reading some of David Schnarch's work. It isn't a 'plan' so much as a paradigm of relationships.. but I think it applies nicely on the larger level of dealing with this whole experience. Intimacy and Desire is the easiest read. Constructing the Sexual Crucible is the most challenging (650pg, way more technical).
Here is something I transcribed from his book, Passionate Marriage. It may be useful in applying more meaning and definition to your GAL and 180s.
Look within your gridlocked issue or situation and extract your own unresolved developmental tasks. - Approach your gridlock as a personal dilemma to be solved, rather than as a situation problem or your partner's problem. - Focus on your own issues to identify ways in which you are contributing to your own unhappiness.
Confront yourself for the sake of your own integrity and personal development -Holding on to yourself requires giving up your favorite ways to dodge self-confrontation. It also involves lots of self-soothing for what you see when you stop slip-sliding away. -One key to holding onto yourself is to stop disproving that there is "something wrong with you" or claiming that you're good enough the way you are. The issue isn't whether you're good enough the way you are. It's a question of who you want to be.
If you're having difficulty identifying your own issues, look at both sides of your two-choice dilemma. -When have you faced something similar before - and dodged it? -Think about what your partner says about you and you vehemently dispute. Find ways that what your partner says is true.
Stop taking your partner's reaction personally -Ask yourself "why am I taking my partner's reaction personally and getting defensive?" --if you think you should take it personally, what is it that you've been doing (or not doing) that leads you to assume your partner's reaction has anything to do with you? --If you aren't culpable, why are you taking your partner's reaction personally?
Don't count on your partner to confront himself/herself in return -You can't move forward by agreeing to acknowledge your issues as long as your partner does likewise.
Forget about "working on your relationship" or the idea that "the relationship is the problem" -When people say "I'm not getting what I want out of our relationship," often the real issue is that they are not getting what they want out of themselves in their marriage. -When you work on yourself you're working on your marriage - because when you change, your relationship changes.
Stop focusing on what your partner is (or isn't) doing. Focus on yourself -Some therapists suggest that examining one's part in an interpersonal conflict takes the pressure off the partner and demonstrates courage, fairness, and goodwill that the partner will hopefully emulate. I believe this small truth masks a bigger one: focusing on yourself increases the pressure on your partner to change.
Stop trying to change your partner. Pressuring your partner actually reduce the pressure on both of you for change. -When you stop avoiding your own two-choice dilemmas, you'll also stop cajoling your partner in any particular direction. You'll simply want him to stand up and define himself too. -If your partner thinks you're trying to drag him forward into your version of happiness and a better life, you make it safe for him to 'dig in his heels' and remain complacent or resistant.
For solutions, look in different directions from where you've looked in the past. Reconsider options you've previously rejected. -Ask yourself 'what about me would have to change-or what would I have to accept or give up-for this to become a real option. Would I like myself more if I could do this?
Stop trying to make your partner listen, accept, and validate you. Listen to yourself. - Insights are always true about the perceiver, but not necessarily about what's perceived. - Ask yourself "What is it in me that predisposes me to see my partner this way?"
Keep your mouth shut about your partner's issues - particularly concerning things you're certain are true. -Consider the wisdom of silence: don't let your partner fight with you instead of himself. -Shift your efforts to being an expert on yourself.
Don't identify with your feelings - The feelings we defend usually aren't the ones we want. If you want them to pass, stop making them an issue of your personal validity
Pay attention to your tone. - Your emotional stance determines what you get out of the process.
Own your projections as an act of integrity. - Openly acknowledging your projections, especially when your partner is ready to blame everything on you, requires a deep breath and a leap of faith - not faith he won't try to use it against you some time (he probably will) but faith that you will hold onto yourself when he does. - Acknowledging your projections embodies tolerating pain for growth and maintaining a clear sense of yourself in close proximity to your partner.
Acting differentiated interferes with being differentiated. - Well differentiated people don't worry about how they look or seek validation for being differentiated. - Stop focusing on acting more differentiated (holier) than your spouse. Pay attention to who you are and who you want to be.
Let the best in you do the thinking and talking. -There is a place within each of us that recognizes the truth when we are confronted with it. -Let what's good in you, the part that can do something new, do the listening. - Its hard admitting that our lives are full of error and self-deception. But this very admission, though painful, makes possible its opposite - a differentiated life, lived with integrity.
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
you doing alright? sending hugs your way and don't forget the free "legal" advice...(shut up!!) (see how the emoticon makes that phrase nice?)
So, No R talk, no arguing, no trying convincing her. IF she brings it up, you are resigned to her course of action. She doesn't need to convince YOU b/c you heard it already...you get it. You know...sheesh...oh, and you're fine about it too! It's ALL about s4 and your future life now... REMEMBER---
GAL, 180s, upbeat PMA and the awakening!
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
IS are you ok? Sending you hugs. Hope you are hanging in there. Been thinking of you and will say a prayer tonite for us. In SPanish can't pray in English
M 53 D 20 Separated 6/22/11 moved out 10/24 Together 26 yrs Married 16 W Filed for D 7/21/11 Served 9/6/11 D final 8/28/12
“Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be.”
(see how the emoticon makes that phrase nice?) 