Saving the M and caring for a baby

[ESN]

May, I loved GM's post and I might read that book myself, since I'm having trouble with forgiveness right now. But I imagine (and tell me where I'm wrong) but maybe you are worried that if you don't get the "truth" of what happened out now, you might move home, and find out something you don't want to find out, and then all this upheavel will be created again. I think in order to forgive, you need to know what you're forgiving - and if I recall, you worry that there might have been an A of some sort. It sounds like that is going to what to come out - and be a big component in your ability to trust again. I suspect you guys will really be ready to move back in together. So maybe rest on knowing that you can trust the process and trust that your H wants you back regardless of what happened in the past. And that you may get the answers you are looking for. You'll take care of yourself. You always seem to ... and you'll move in when that thing in you "clicks" and not a minute before you're ready.

[figgeroni]

forgiving doesn't equal forgetting

Cori and I argue
he does dumb things
I do dumb things
we forgive eachother on a daily basis

that doesn't mean I have forgotten them

it means I understand that he does not want to hurt me with those actions
(he may have at the time...no one is perfect...but that moment is gone)

holding on to that pain does not hurt him anymore
it only hurts me

so I forgive

not just for him

mostly for me

holding onto those feelings of hurt and anger takes a lot of energy

energy that I would rather spend on other things

he is the same

when my ex cheated on me, I forgave him for cheating but I did not forget it
those memories and feelings were then for me to handle in my way


you forgive for you
for moving on
for each other
for your marriage
for your daughter

it doesn't mean you ever forget

the memory fades over time but can sneak up on you sometimes
how you deal with that memory is the measure of you as a person

[KenF]

i dont think knowing makes any difference. no good can come from continuing to ask about an A. you'll have to believe/trust him and this is a good place to start.

forgive the person.

continuing to dig will only push him away, and any knowledge (if anything did happen) would only hurt you and give you something to use against him.

but if you do need to know, be sure you can handle the answer.

what if he admits to something one step more? will you push further? and when will you stop? -- once you start down that road there is no stopping. the only place you'd stop is when you've decided he's gone too far and the relationship is over.

[25yearsmlc]

ken and fig both raise good points about forgiving May

you see my signature block talks about it b/c it's the biggest lesson I learned here.

half the contribution I had made to our problems prior to the MLC were b/c I held onto my resentments. Some of them were legitamate but so what?

It did no one any good to ruminate about past wrongs. Remember how your vows (mine at least) said "love does not keep a record of wrongs"? Well I did.

and it kept me from being warm and loving and open b/c I thought that meant h was "taking advantage" of my b/c in effect, I wasn't punishing him enough...oh excuse me, I mean "holding him accountable" which is the euphemism we use to punish.

All under the guise of some BS we tell ourselves b/c we don't want to forgive.

Is it easy? Hell no. And I NEVER saw forgiveness growing up with my parents.

They yelled louder and sometimes hit below the belt or got violent but never were there apologies...until my father's deathbed and he died with a lot of regret.

So I learned to forgive. And I don't believe I have to know "all" to forgive. I can just let go of that set of months. I wasn't perfect either you know.

I see NO value in you knowing anything unless it's that there was NO affair

but is that what you really expect to hear?

Whatever it was, seems over now, right?

And isn't that what really matters, from this day forward?

OTOH if ti's a dealbreaker then that's another matter but I'm not getting that from you.

I DO get a legit need to hear him say he loves you. That's a normal thing to get in a marriage, and one that is working thru a crisis needs it even more.

He said it before all this, right? I mean you are not asking something new of him?

So he needs to know what you need from him? Don't assume he does.

Be fair with him. He's asking when this will be over. Interesting...

Does he mean when are you going to love HIM again?

Or what does he have to do to earn that back,
or when are you going to forgive him?

This is KEY.

Maybe He wants to know if you will ever forgive him and that the marriage can be better than before, FROM THIS DAY FORWARD...

You both want to know that!

IMHO,

you can let go of the past a lot easier if the present is being worked on
and the future looks better.

That would be my focus.

((( )))

[ESN]

I can't speak for May, but if it were me, I would need to know. And that's not to say I might not forgive it or heal from it, but it would bother me and continue to come out in the way May described when they were watching football until I knew.

I think the reason I'm reminding her of this is that while H is making progress, her progress (meaning readiness to move back in) might be both his "now" behavior - where he is at - but also that question she has in her mind that I hear is burning a bit....

But I do agree with Ken that it might push him away. And I do think there's a good chance she'd somehow find out down the road -though I suspect she might want to know it now, when everything is being worked through.

IDK - that's just my hunch that she's trying to forget but it's not working and it's going to keep coming up unless she really 100% commits to putting it to rest and being able to live with that uncertainty.

[ESN]

Another way of saying it is that it sounds like she might be okay with that uncertainty now... at a distance, but once they are settled back in together, having that be an obstacle can present a problem for all the work they did to get to a place where they can move forward.

[KenF]

there is no such thing as certainty in a relationship, it does not exist. if certainty is your goal, its a lost cause.

trust in one's partner does not come from certainty but from acceptance of uncertainty.

at what arbitrary point would she decide she's certain? and why not decide where she is now is that point?

the end result of attempting to achieve certainty is failure of the relationship, there can be no other end.

if she keeps pushing for certainty it will end in one or more of:
a: drive him away,
b: she will find out something she cant forgive,
c: she will create a paranoia in herself that cannot be satisfied, and she'll be reduced to snooping, doubting, etc

its the same as trying to find the breaking point of a pencil. the only way you do that is by breaking it. and once its broken its broken.

[25yearsmlc]

I see no reason for my h to know that I dated while we were sep and or that I actually enjoyed some of the dates but I came away mostly feeling that h was the best man for me.

I think What matters is what I learned, not how I learned it.

I didn't sleep with anyone and whatever h did in the time we were apart, is not of my concern.

But suppose...suppose that I had slept with OM and learned that most OMs are horrible in bed and that h was the best lover around? Do you think I'd need to tell him "how" i learned how great a lover he was, or could I just assure him that he is a great lover? I feel it's the lesson learned, not the method of learning it.

And for some people, the presumed "need to know" sure does backfire.

Besides, when we reconciled, we re-committed "from this day forward",

and the one thing I KNOW about forgiveness, is that it means letting go of the past.

I say Do whatever makes that letting go easier, not harder.


May, IF there is something your h could have done that is a true & certain dealbreaker for you, then ask away. I understand.

But be careful what you wish for.

I have learned to forgive, and it was a lengthy difficult process for me.

I had asked and asked a lot of "Why?s"...but For me, there were few "good answers" as to why the MLC happened.

A chunk of forgiveness was based on accepting that I would never understand most of it. Heck, h hardly understands...
so I stopped spending energy on questions without answers.


For me, any gory details would probably make it much harder to forgive.

But that's just me, and I don't want to project my experience onto yours, although I feel good about where h and I are now in our marriage and our lives.

I pass onto you what helped me/us, but it may not apply.

I also think your comment about his missing "ILY's" are very important. But again, did he say it much before all this?

Are you asking for something new, that he never gave before?

If not, if this was something he was comfortable expressing before, then I fail to see why you'd move home yet. Surely he can understand that, (or will?)

In any case May, I admire your whole 'dig deep' approach to this.

You're a brave strong woman. Keep on keeping on...

[workinghardguy]

Forgiveness is something you give yourself, not something you give to the other person. A lesson I used to teach to kids at a boot camp went like this...

They were all resentful and angry about something in their past and at someone in their lives. Whether right or wrong they felt wronged and were constantly angry young men and women.

But that anger and resentment is like a 50 pound rucksack that they would put on every morning when they got out of bed. They'd carry that rucksack around with them all day, everywhere they went. When something would remind them of how they were wronged they'd add a rock or two to their rucksack. By the end of the day this metaphorical rucksack now weighed 100 pounds.

When the lights went out and they fell asleep they finally got to put their rucksack down. But guess who was waiting for them first thing in the morning?

So I would invite them to just put their rucksack down. Leave it down. Leave it behind. The person who wronged you isn't walking around thinking about you or how they hurt you. They don't have a rucksack they're carrying... instead you're carrying it for the both of you. Just stop. Let it go. Unburden yourself. Do it for you.

[25yearsmlc]

Well said^^^...

I've also heard that holding onto anger to punish someone else, is like lighting yourself on fire and hoping to get smoke in their eyes...

Anyhow,
I heard this story long ago and posted it somewhere here, but cannot find it now…so here it is.

To Forgive or Not to Forgive?

And so it happened that the skies everywhere turned dark and thunderous and suddenly a voice from above said "The world will end in 7 days." Upon hearing this, people everywhere noticed that suddenly everyone's faces began to change colors. Their faces bore the colors & marks of their sins. For instance, some had green on their face for envy or jealousy, red for lust, or their foreheads had "A" on them for adultery, "T" for thieves, etc. "L" for liars, etc.

People wondered what had happened and governments thought their enemies had tried to intimidate them. Others thought a prank had been played on them.

The next day the same clouds hovered over and the same loud voice told everyone everywhere, "The world will end in 6 days."

Politicians and celebrities began wearing hats and head coverings so no one could see their sins. Others avoided seeing their neighbors or families.

This alarmed people as they began to wonder what it could mean and where the voice came from.

The next day the same things happened and the voice said "The world will end in 5 days." People began to arm themselves and prepare for an attack or plague and to fight with those whom they felt had betrayed them.

The next day the voice again said "The world will end in 4 days". People began to give their wealth away and do favors for others.

The next day the voice said "The world will end in 3 days." By now people were in full panic mode. They tried to hide and flee the cities. The voice said "The world will end in 2 days"…and people began to gather in churches, synagogues, mosques and temples of all sorts. They prayed and prayed but still the voice said, "The world will end in 1 day."

In one home a couple looked out their window at the clouds gathering. The husband had the mark of adultery on his head and the wife had the green marks of jealousy and envy on hers. The husband turned to his wife and said

"You are the only woman I ever truly loved. I'm so sorry I hurt you, Can you please forgive me?" And she said "oh Yes I forgive you. And I'm sorry for the terrible ways I hurt you. Will you forgive me?" And he too, said "I forgive you."

Suddenly their faces cleared completely as they held each other tightly hugging. When they realized that their faces had cleared, and why, they spread the word.

Brothers who had been estranged for years put aside their resentments, and embraced, couples reconciled, people let go of the past, people reached out to ask forgiveness, and they FORGAVE each other…and the faces cleared as did the skies above…

And the world did not end.