Trying not to hope is hard

[workinghardguy]

KML is right on. Let me give you some examples...

Things my W has said in both her "bomb speech" and subsequently...

- What she said: "I can't trust you and have never been able to trust you"
- What she does: She lets me control all the finances and despite being offered the passwords for the accounts she never access them. She will go away for a weekend and leave our S with me but also will leave the SS and SD with me.
- What I think she meant: That there is something inside of her that is not allowing her to form the trust bonds that she expects to exist. Furthermore, there are things I do that lead her to question my decision making. In our past I have been a pleaser and will do just about anything to make her happy. This leads to distrust because if she wants a new ipad, I'll get one. It may mean skipping a payment on something, but I'll figure that out. So she can't trust that I will put the needs of the family unit ahead of my own personal need for gratification that comes from pleasing her.

[silveryposter]

This conflict is speech and actions is pretty much exactly what I've been experiencing. One of the things that was said during our last argument was her calling me a mooch. She has said before that she thinks I've been living the high life as a SAHD. However, she has also told me that she expects me not to be an *sshole (like some of her friends have warned to her to expect) during divorce and not to try to take her for all she's got.

Two opposing views. 1) I'm riding on her dime and don't want to give that up. 2) She doesn't think that I'm the kind of person who will take her money.

This is just one example. She's also said recently that she doesn't need my validation for when I think she's making good choices, then turns around and asks for input and is genuinely grateful when I give my input (saying you're such a good guy).

I've got many more examples. The first 6-8 months after bomb were full of these kinds of things. Lately, she's been sticking to her story a lot more, but those two I listed above have remained her paradoxes throughout. All of that being said, I've been feeling fairly good about letting go and pretty much ignoring the negative comments.

She recently told MC that she feels like she's waiting for the other shoe to drop. The first 3 years of our marriage I went from one job to the next, then I started teaching karate and did that for 5 years. It was at that point that I decided, and told her, that I wanted to be a teacher. I begain schooling 4 years ago (lots of part time initially) and haven't wavered in my goals or story this entire time. So I've reached the point where I realize that I don't care if she believes in me or not, because I believe in myself.

T

[sandi2]

Don't really like being grilled for asking POV of SIL.

I couldn't help but think this statement was a little funny, unless I misunderstood what you had previously posted about wanting to ask your W about her POV. I think you were wanting her to open up more and thought you could "help" her? If I recall correctly, you were advised not to question her as it would only result in another R talk.

As I was reading your post, I was thinking...."Don't do it b/c she will feel like you are applying pressure (even if you called it by a different name). Then when I read how you felt toward your W "grilling" you over the SIL situation, I wondered if you even give it a second thought that she might feel as though she's being grilled by you when the shoe is on the the other foot. (When we are the talker in the M, it's hard to find another soloution besides conversation, huh?)

And speaking of shoes.....

She recently told MC that she feels like she's waiting for the other shoe to drop. The first 3 years of our marriage I went from one job to the next, then I started teaching karate and did that for 5 years. It was at that point that I decided, and told her, that I wanted to be a teacher.

I have to agree with 25 on something. I believe your W must have felt insecure during the job bouncing....and when you announced what you wanted to finally do with your life...I suspect it was difficult for her to feel as supportive as you thought she should be, but maybe I missed something. I do know what it is like to live from paycheck to paycheck....and what it's like not having a paycheck at all. I remember resenting my H for not working harder to provide for his family better. I remember him getting bank loans and making poor decisions (and not discussing it with me, and how it hurt us very badly financially. He'll never be able to retire....and even though I have been the one to hold down a full time job and moonlight another one......I may not get to retire, either.

So, it's hard for a woman not to be resentful. Even if modern society has taught us that a couple does not have to follow traditional "roles" in the family, it is very hard to change what has been instilled in us. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how great a salary the woman is earning....she thinks of the man as being the leader, protector, and provider for the family.

The women I know would be willing to give H moral and financial support while he finished his education. After all, it would benefit the family once he had his degree and a good job. But, if that decision seem to come at the end of a string of other short term decisions (like going from job to job, for whatever reason)and then him staying home with the kids while she worked all day... and go home to see more jobs awaiting......well don't expect her to be happy about it.

So far I haven't suggested any solutions for you, but can you understand what I've been trying to say? I'm not implying that you are less of a man (and neither is my H). I'm just saying how we women feel about things.....even in "equal" roles. I wondered if you could see why she may feel that way, and do you think it is fair of her to have resentment?

[silveryposter]

I wondered if you could see why she may feel that way, and do you think it is fair of her to have resentment?

I understand why she may have felt that way initially, but I truly don't understand why she would continue to be resentful.

One of the issues we've had has been communication, and she has never really wanted to tell me things that may "hurt my feeling" up until bomb. It follows then that she may very well have been resentful of my lack of a job and SAHD status, even though she may have never said anything in that regard. I really think I get that. However, I can't wrap my mind around why this resentment would create such a vacuum within her.

She's said mean things to me that she has never said before. Additionally, I have not wavered in my decision. The fact that she has called this into question has hurt me deeply, as I truly cannot understand what it would take for her to believe in me as she once did. Indeed, it simply may not be possible for her to see me with anything but resentment.

Of all the things I can do to improve myself, and there are many, I cannot be any more committed to my education. If 4 years and a 4.0 GPA don't mean anything to her, then a degree likely won't either. She's just waiting for me to change my mind. Once again, I understand how she could have had resentment earlier, and even how she could resent how I wasn't the best SAHD I could have been for the past couple of years. Heck, I can even understand why she may resent me as a husband for not taking care of her emotional needs as I should have. I just don't understand why she can say she doesn't resent any of those other things now, but just can't believe I'll continue on my career path.

To me they are separate, though I recognize she has rolled it all into one. This has helped me realize that that is the ONE thing that is most important to me in a relationship: to have a spouse who believes in you, who trusts you. This is why we are going to have a really hard time moving on, since I'm having a hard time trusting her if she has no vested interest in me.

If she thinks I'm going to change my mind and be lazy, what will she say to a Divorce lawyer? What will she say to the kids? This is a big issue for me, and I need some strategies to move beyond it, and begin to trust again. Right now, since it's so new, all I see is the woman I loved who stopped trying. That's ridiculous I know, and it's counterproductive.

I'll reread the above posts again and respond again, as I'm sure there's more inspiration to be found. Once again, thank you all for the replies and for helping to give me some perspective. I continue to strive for a better life, and these boards have been extremely insightful to that end. Thank you.

[silveryposter]

Also just wanted to clarify.

Job bouncing was from about 2000 to 2003. I started teaching karate in 2002, went full-time in 2004. I stopped in 2006 when day-care got too expensive for our son. The years up to 2006 were our prime years.

I became SAHD in 2006, and began school in 2007 in the evenings with the goal that I wanted to be working when all children were in school. This was stated and agreed upon. In 2010 we had a mortgage increase and I had to take 2 semesters off from school due to finances not being available. The was a bad time for me, and I realized a few months ago that I was severely withdrawn and depressed during this time. All my negative habits got worse, and by the time I got a part time job last fall it was already pretty bad between us.

In short, this was all planned and agreed upon some years ago, coming off of some really great years. The years as a SAHD killed our relationship, and I stopped doing all the things that made me ME (music, karate, teaching). I think that the plan to go to school, that we agreed upon, was just more difficult and long than either of us had anticipated. That, along with my poor attention to our marriage and to my SAHD duties, slowly killed our marriage.

One last thing to recap my last post above this. I mostly understand her resentment, what I don't understand at all is how to deal with it.

[~ kd ~]

Just so you don't take too much credit for the downfall of your M because you were a SAHD...

I wonder if the same could be said for SAHMs whose H's have MLC and / or leave them...

Or how about the SAHMs who leave their H's...

I don't disagree with Sandi and other's who do maintain the idea that men need to remain "manly" and undertake traditional roles as bread winners and protectors...

I still do maintain that more often than not, REASONS are just the obvious symptoms of deeper issues in a M... and I'd submit that SAH parent's perceived lack of contribution to the M is just a reason...

[25yearsmlc]

Fair enouh KD,

but unlike most WAH's, this woman has SAID some things that indicate it IS a problem and most men don't tell their w's that the reason they are leaving them is b/c the mothers stayed at home. I mean I've heard it a few times but it's rare.

Silver's w out and out called him a "mooch" who lived off her work and didn't pull his weight, or words to that effect. OUCH!!

Silver, no offense but your claim of a 4.0 GPA for 4 years is a tad misleading b/c it wasn't full time or you would have the degree right? I mean if you only take a class or two at a time, bottom line is

you've gone for 4 years and have 4 more...that is a LONG time to be in school for a bachelor's degree in teaching. It's the most I've heard of,

and you are a married man and father. By way of comparison,

My sister just got her RN after being widowed 3 y/ago. She has 2 step kids...she did it in an accelerated program in 30 months going thru the summers, And she worked part time too. She paid for daycare for the younger one, b/c her h died. But she did it faster than the youngster classmates of hers.

My sister's kids and she, are way better off than if she had not gone. (BTW she graduated on her 50th birthday and was chosen to be the graduation speaker...I'm proud of her.)

So for me, seeing my sister do that after such a tragedy, is the context I have of parental adults in college. Similarly,

I had our first child 4 years "prematurely" while still in law school and finished at night, one semsester late... yes

I'd say the context of your studies cannot be placed in the context of a regular college student. To your w, you were in the "Provider/Companion" role...
regardless of what you say was "agreed" upon. Sounds like she didn't agree to that...or she changed her mind.

Did she finish school? Did she want to? Did she get the option?

I apologize if this offends b/c I know you mean well and you sound like a super attentive father,

but speaking as a mother with "female intuition" & woman with a career, I fear you are glossing over this issue at your peril. She called you a terrible name but it is a revealing one...


I think if you were earning a decent reliable income now, or had an end in sight or a bigger payoff, it might very well improve your situation.

Can you make any of those^^ things happen or change?

After this long, 4 more years of her working full time AND doing work at home too, AND not having a partner available to her as a companion at night (without prolonging the schooling even more) is a lonely way to live...
and for you to get a teaching degree probably doesn't seem like enough of a pay off after this long, For HER...(apparently)

Dig deep....Is there something in this^^^ that YOU can change?

in her defense, I put my h through med school and residency and it s.u.k.k.e.d. big time.

I'm telling you from the female perspective-though we didn't have to pay tuition b/c he got a military scholarship still,

I know what it's like to work all day at a seriously demanding job, only to come home to a man with earplugs in so HE can concentrate on his homework OR attend a class,

while I get to clean the house, make dinner, feed the babies/toddlers, bathe them and put the kids to bed and talk w/an adult for maybe 4 minutes before picking up MY extra work for the next day....never mind laundry or yard work...
I was not alone but I was lonely a lot.

I THINK it was worth it in hindsight (H loves his work and is great at it)...but at least there was a good pay off promised, and he was consistently working hard in one direction with a goal, and earning something along the way... He finished on time. The income went Up. The plan worked though our son came years early.

And now H works a lot more than I do, and I finally have time with our youngest child...(and I'm okay with that)

Sorry if this hurts your ego b/c it's so not my intention to do that.

It feels to me as if you are missing out on the clues she is overtly giving you.

If she could be reassured that there was an end (closer than 4 more years) to her workload...or like I said, a bigger payoff...then maybe she'd stick it out.

what is it YOU think bothers her so much, if NOT the money, direction or work issues?

in short, I believe she believes what she is saying. You need to contrast her beliefs with new facts.

I hope you can.

Good luck!

[sandi2]

she's said mean things to me that she has never said before

I think some women do that to make the H see how serious she is about leaving the M. Whenever you, the MC, or anyone else tries to discuss a more positive solution...then she thinks she has to really let you have it harder so you'll find get the picture. That is why she's getting meaner, and she will continue to show how nasty she can be...if she's pressed.

Out of all the horrible things I said to my H, there were a couple of things I never said. Strange thing.....it should have been said from the beginning of our problems. Instead, they laid there in my heart and festered.

So, if your W has not used these exact words with you, I'll say them. IMO, she has lost respect and sexual attraction.

The reason she doesn't "believe in you" is b/c of all the dream puffs you've handed her in the past. With every new job, didn't you try to paint a brighter future?

When a woman discovers that she has M a man who does not start what he finishes.....it can really take the steam out of her sail. She is probably asking herself why this time would be any different than the others. If she has been able to deal with past resentments and dissolve them....that's great and it helps her not to carry that around. However, I'm thinking that now...she looks at your 4 more years of studies as another dream puff that will have holes in it. She is seeing you as being that kind of person who never finishes what he starts.

Oh dear, I'm late for work. I'll finish late

[~ kd ~]

And THOSE ^^^ above from Sandi and 25 are deeper into the cause...

As as SAHD, without a doubt, I know my W started loosing respect for me, as a Man...

I can give a lot of reasons why the business I did have and subsequent earnings became less and less profitable, some pointing at my W, some pointing at the economy, and truthfully... MOST pointing at me...

And as time wore on, I tried other ventures and had lots of dreams and at one point as things were getting really bad between my W and me, after a potentially VERY lucrative project I was working on failed to receive funding... my W said to me, "I believed in you and this project. I thought this was finally, the one..."

I was a freakin' awesome SAHD! I just failed to be the man my W M... and as time wore on, she began to believe her inner voice and the voices of others spreading FUD... that I... was a mooch, layabout lout, money grubber, etc, etc...

I could go on and on about that...

So really, it's not because I was a SAHD and was not good at that role... it's the pressures of reality that women DO like a manly man... they DO have expectations that a real man provides (financially) for the household... the DO want their man to be protector...

And if we can successfully be manly men AND still be SAHDs... great... but if we cannot... the sooner we have an exit strategy for staying at home and being those men, the better...

I waited too long... My exit strategies were many, but I couldn't bring any of them to fruition, for whatever reason... I stopped being a manly man, a Husband, for my W...

It may yet be not too late for me, although I've still been struggling with getting back on my feet... but every man who is here who is somewhere on this spectrum as a SAHD...

IMHO... that is a very important place to look as to how we contributed to the downfall of our M...

Our Ws still may have left... but those are the reasons... and probably deeper causes... and they aren't unreasonable concerns and requests from our Ws...

[silveryposter]

I think if you were earning a decent reliable income now, or had an end in sight or a bigger payoff, it might very well improve your situation.

Can you make any of those^^ things happen or change?

After this long, 4 more years of her working full time AND doing work at home too, AND not having a partner available to her as a companion at night (without prolonging the schooling even more) is a lonely way to live...
and for you to get a teaching degree probably doesn't seem like enough of a pay off after this long, For HER...(apparently)

Dig deep....Is there something in this^^^ that YOU can change?

Another clarification, I have 3 years of school left, and I go to school during the day when she works. I am around during the evenings except when I work, most nights if one of us is not gone (working for me, usually socializing for her) we do separate things in separate, though I have extended invitations to do some things together. She just doesn't want to spend more time with me than she has to, at least that's what she says.

Did she finish school? Did she want to? Did she get the option?

Yes, she is a pharmacist and makes a very high income. You may be right about the man providing but she has never addressed that specific option with me. Here I am at a paradox. If I quit school to make more money, thus potentially showing her I can provide, I validate her opinion of me as someone who cannot finish what he starts. I cannot do both full time school and full time job, though I am working 20 hours part time. It's the closest I can come to fulfilling all areas of need both for myself and for my family.

Sorry if this hurts your ego b/c it's so not my intention to do that.

I lost what little ego I had throughout this process, and I continue to seek new ways to understand myself and my R with W. Though I can get frustrated, I am beyond being offended (unless you called me a really bad name... maybe). =)

What is it YOU think bothers her so much, if NOT the money, direction or work issues?

in short, I believe she believes what she is saying. You need to contrast her beliefs with new facts.

I think is a combination of all those things, but to a far greater degree that warranted in my opinion. Certainly there is history to be considered for the negative, but there is also history to be considered for the positive. At first, it was the direction that was lacking and my financial and house contribution were solid. Unfortunately when my direction became solid 4 + ago, my financial and house contribution became lacking during that time. Since January Bomb, all 3 have been steadily getting better, certainly better than any or all have been since we've been married. However, my pursuing her while saying "look! I did what I said I was going to do!" for the first 4 months after bomb just made her disconnect even more emotionally.

So though the actual physical part has improved dramatically, I grew up too late emotionally, and now she's been "done" for the past 3 months.

To sum up, many of the factors you listed certainly contributed to the failure of our marriage. The two biggest factors impeding our healing however, are her view of me as a failure and "mooch" just "living the high-life", and the fact that I was sometimes controlling in our conversations by trying to control the situation (see previous post or ask if clarification needed).

I can and have changed my behavior to stop trying to control how she views me or to justify my behavior. That being said, and based on that principle, I cannot change how she views me with anything other than actions. If she views our entire marriage as me simply trying to live off of her, and 4 years of solid direction mean nothing, then that means I have to give it 11 more years before, in her eyes, I've been reliable/responsible longer than I've been unreliable irresponsible.

She is obviously not willing to wait that long, and since those are the major factors and seem to heavily outweigh the things she liked about our marriage, I see no way to save our marriage. I cannot influence her with words, and my actions seem to mean nothing as well.