Youngster's WAW Still Chooses OM!

[westcoastfella]

I checked with my bank just to be sure. No, she can't just "cancel" the loan. There really isn't anything that she can do about it. About all she can do is NOT sign the paperwork allowing me to remove her name from the title. Either way, my loan isn't going anywhere.

I don't think that either drugs or alcohol are involved, but as I have understood the scientific literature, affairs can create chemicals in the brain that are just as potent and addictive as regular drugs. In addition, it's all too often that people who engage affairs totally re-write reality in order to justify what they're doing. If she really thought that was she was doing was right and unselfish, there would be zero reason to lash out at me like this...

Because of her history of sexual assault, I'm not holding these kinds of responses against her the way I would with a normal person. Rape survivors can harbor some really deep scars that come out in destructive ways, and I have seen all sorts of destructive, out-of-touch reactions come out of her throughout our R. However, I am starting to wonder if this is really the way things should end. I could not imagine dealing with this kind of instability if we had kids involved in the matter...

Yes, I have read Brain Lock several times. I'm not sure if I had full-blown OCD or not. My symptoms were rarely "external" compulsions, like washing or cleaning, but they did take up hours of time in the day and severely damaged my personal and professional life in various ways.

[westcoastfella]

West I don't know where to begin w/ her response.....

I could tear it apart for you if you want.

Just know she isn't done with you that is very clear

Don't respond and stay dark.

Hey, if you wanted to give a shot at deconstructing what she said, I would greatly appreciate it. I've been checking both with you guys and with my sister to make sure that I'm NOT being the crazy, selfish one here. I really don't think that I am... My letter to her was very kind and without any kind of malice...

No, I don't think she's done with me, either. I'm very concerned about what she's going to try to do to "get back" at me. Her comment about the money she wants out of me really concerns me. I want to avoid any nasty court room battles if at all possible.

[Finah]

K here we go.

I wish I could say I am surprised at your total selfishness, but given your behavior when we were married, I am sorry to say that I am not surprised. I was the perfect girlfriend and wife to you for five and a half years and my parents treated you like their own son, and now you are just going to cut us all out of your life.

There is probably some truth in that first statement, she probably did really feel you were selfish........right or wrong. But her last statement is pretty much an oxymoron, who left who? This is pure wayward talk blaming you for "leaving"

You are disgusting and I regret that I wasted even one second of my life on you.

She seems to be wasting a lot of time on someone she doesn't care about......mainly you and what you are up to and doing.

So here's what's going to happen: I will be visiting [the rabbit] in a couple of weeks. I can't take him with me now, but I will be taking him back when I move back to Washington next summer.

And there we go with the cake eating.......she could easily take the rabbit.......but doesn't want to..........she wants you to keep the rabbit for now.

I will also be removing my name from the car loan as soon as possible and I frankly don't care if you lose the car over it.

If she didn't care about you losing your car......why did she tell you......and like KML said......you can't just take your name off a loan.........all wayward talk

I wish I could impress upon you what an awful and dispicable person I think you are and how much I regret all the time I wasted on you.

Again with the time......she seems to be wasting a lot of it on someone she doesn't even care about.

I hope you enjoy your pointless and miserable life.

Another oxymoron, again all wayward talk.


Anger, hate, venom, whatever you want to call it that she is spewing at you is b/c she hurts and she cares.
Just stay dark okay.........there is zero reason to speak w/ her.
If you do need to say anything just repeat what you wrote to her.
Be firm on that.
As soon as you give her an inch she will exploit it.
Be calm, be rational, be consistent with your message.

West tell me about this OM, do you know who he is?

[kml]

I have seen all sorts of destructive, out-of-touch reactions come out of her throughout our R. However, I am starting to wonder if this is really the way things should end. I could not imagine dealing with this kind of instability if we had kids involved in the matter...

Exactly. While it is very kind of you to see where this might be coming from - you DO have to think if this is really what you want going forward. My advice to a young person like you, without kids, is different than it would be if you'd been married for 15 years and had three kids.

I ignored some serious red flags (including an affair) early in my marriage. Although we went on to have many happy years and raise three great kids - the problem resurfaced when the kids were in their teens. I felt so bad at that time because I realized, it had been ONE thing for ME to take a risk on my husband - but I had made my innocent children take that SAME risk, and they paid the price in heartbreak.

Also, regardless of how hurt or damaged your W may be, the kind of VICIOUS MEANNESS she spews in that email is just NEVER EVER acceptable. Avoid the temptation to rescue her. She is unlikely to grow into the kind of stable supportive partner you want by your side in later years when life tests you by throwing curve balls your way.

I'm not sure if I had full-blown OCD or not. My symptoms were rarely "external" compulsions, like washing or cleaning, but they did take up hours of time in the day and severely damaged my personal and professional life in various ways.

Sounds pretty OCD to me. One of my son's biggest manifestations is "stuck thinking" (although he did use to tap and count too). Once when he was a teen, he came home from school, to find his sister had eaten his Thai food leftovers that he'd been looking forward to. Of course he was pissed at her - normal teen behavior, right? But when he had to complain about it repeatedly - every day for a week - despite her apology - despite me buying him NEW Thai food - THAT was OCD. He just couldn't extinguish the thought.

[westcoastfella]

I have a couple of posts to make, mostly because I've had all day to think about things and also because this is a pretty thorny issue for me. I'd like to break them up to make them easier to follow.

Finah: Thanks for your thoughts on what she wrote. Makes me feel a lot better knowing that this is WAW-talk and nothing of any real worth. Also, to answer your question, OM was somebody that my W met while working at a factory. He is in his early thirties, while both my W and I are in our mid-twenties. He is a mechanical laborer, though I'm not exactly sure what he specializes in. He has had many R's before -- he has slept with 9 women, including my W. To be honest, it's hard to know what about him is true. All I get is info from my W which I realize at this point is completely distorted and hard to take seriously. Also, he looks almost exactly like me, only bigger-built.

KML: I appreciate knowing that her vitriol is something that I should never have to take. I used to think that it was normal, used to think that I "deserved" this kind of treatment because I did something "wrong." Now I'm just seeing it as abusive. Also, my OCD is definitely "stuck thinking." I am working very hard on un-sticking my patterns of thought -- it is only causing me horrible depression and forcing me to hold onto things that I have no control over.

Concerning my W's behavior: The more I read up on borderline personality disorder, the more I agree with my W's old therapist that she has "elements" of it. Here are the symptoms that I have observed:

-Self-mutilation. Fortunately, this happened very infrequently, maybe only twice during our whole R. She still has noticeable scars on her arms from where she had cut herself after some kind of emotional crisis that we were going through.
--Mood swings
--Inappropriate displays of anger. These happened from time to time and usually only occurred in the privacy of our apartment. When my W would get super-stressed, sometimes she would throw things around while screaming or bang her hands on her laptop violently when it wasn't working.
--Feelings of emptiness or aloneness. She was often depressed and felt as though she didn't know who she was or what she wanted. I have frequently cited her fantasy of "driving away" and escaping everybody she knew, including me (despite the fact that I would be sitting there comforting her and listening to her -- weird).
--Now the big one is fear of abandonment. BPD lit. calls this "I-Hate-You-Don't-Leave-Me." She makes me out to be this awful, selfish person, yet she can't stand the notion that I would voluntarily exit her life and refuses to respect the reasons that I have for going dark. This has apparently inspired her to react to me with venom and threats...

I must also note that this might also be an extreme reaction to my new boundaries. During our R, I don't think I ever once stood up to her and said "no." I made feeble attempts at times, but she would eventually get me to give her what she wanted or agree with her either through logic, crying, or threats. I always felt because of the foolish mistakes that I made at the beginning of our R (lying, misrepresenting my feelings, internally lusting other women, etc.), I was always in karmic debt to her. I never felt that I was ALLOWED to say no or NOT give her what she wanted... I think at times she realized this and would TRY to get me to stick up for myself, but I never understood. Eventually, I think this caused her to lose respect for me, inspiring her to look elsewhere.

[westcoastfella]

Continued...

While I was out walking, I was suddenly struck by the comparison between me and my W's ex-BF, who she was with prior to meeting me. This gels with Finah's observation that my W is spending a lot of time keeping tabs on someone she no longer cares about.

When I started dating my W, she was still living with her ex as a roommate even though they had broken up several months before. They had been together since high school, so their R lasted about 3-4 years. He was truly the definition of a loser. He dropped out of school. He spent hours doing little else but playing video games, including hours of World of Warcraft. He did none of the chores in the apartment, leaving my W to do them all.

During their R, he quickly became selfish and self-absorbed. He insulted her by saying that he didn't really want to have sex with her anymore because she gained weight. At one point, he broke up with her to pursue another woman, then tried to have sex with my W when the OW would have nothing to do with him. During the time that we dated, he carried on an R with a married woman. While my W's family has adored me for years, they never really cared much for the ex.

Now after all of this...did my W want to have anything to do with him? Did she go crying to HIM whenever we had problems? Did she text or call every couple of weeks, just to see "how he was doing"? Heck, no. She barely thought twice about him. About the most that she ever did was look up his FB profile once, then laugh about what a loser he had become. That was it. She just...stopped caringabout him.

This definitely makes me feel like there's something going on in her head in regard to me. I have no idea what I represent to her anymore, but it's obvious that she cares enough that it scares and angers her that I'm trying to go my own way.

This whole thing depresses me. I really feel like there's nothing I can do at this point but damage control. I have pictured in my mind trying to reason with her, but there is no reasoning with someone who will not see reason. All she can see is the reality that she has spun for herself. Until SHE decides to accept reality, I am in for a very hard road indeed.

[westcoastfella]

P.S.: Thank you guys so much for responding so quickly and supportively to this recent development. I feel so much better knowing that I am doing the right thing and that I do not deserve any of what she's throwing my way.

[cam]

WCF....I've been reading your posts, but never written to you before. All I can say is Wow!! I can't believe she would say that to you and be so nasty when she is the one sleeping with another guy....WTF!
Anyway, I think the advice you've gotten is the right approach. If it were me and my W was doing that and speaking like that then I would just reiterate your LRT letter, state you won't nothing to do with her if she is to continue doing this, tell her you wish her all the best and then say a final good bye and let her go.
Don't call her, don't take her calls, texts or emails until she falls flat on her face and realises what she's done....which based on what you've said about her she probably will one day...although it may be all too late.
Take it easy

[westcoastfella]

WCF....I've been reading your posts, but never written to you before. All I can say is Wow!! I can't believe she would say that to you and be so nasty when she is the one sleeping with another guy....WTF!

The thing is, I can see her hare-brained logic. I have almost fallen for it several times, especially in the beginning when I didn't know any better. In her mind, she is not cheating on me -- she has left a horrible, unfulfilling R for someone that she "should" be with instead. My new boundaries are only perceived as an extension of that "selfish behavior" that caused her to look elsewhere in the first place. Now, not only did I push her to be with someone else, I'm unfairly abandoning her...

I realize writing this assessment of her mind that there's really nothing I can do. I'm the bad guy no matter what I do. It's up to her to face reality, if she ever does.

Thanks for the support, Cam. I'm planning on being cool, crisp, and without judgment, being loving but remaining firm on my boundaries. I am steadily realizing that this truly is the best thing to do for both of us.

[Finah]

It may be an issue of passive dependency......really doesn't matter at this point.

Just stay dark.....if she gets a hold of you.....reiterate over and over your stance.......do not waver on that one bit, do not let her bait you into any argument about finances, furniture, whatever......

If your in-laws can be any sort of help to you.....use them......anyone that could put pressure on the affair.....tell them. Close family and friends.

But not out of spite, be calm cool and collected.

I love my W very much and have made an invitation to her for us to seek family counseling and to work on our marriage, but she needs to end the relationship with the other man. While I now realize that I played a part in this I am taking steps to correct those mistakes and would like your help or support in saving our marriage.

Now its up to you whether you want to expose....Some people don't agree with it.

IMO, affairs are a different animal. You have to fight the affair and use a multitude of techniques.

I chose to and would again even though initially it drove her to OM. But it sent them both scattering like cockroaches trying to get their stories straight and still to this day my WW lies to OM.

Your WW is all ready living w/ OM so its not like you are going to drive her further from you and you are legally separated.

I guess what do you have to lose?

Either sit back and go zero contact until the affair dies out.

Or go pretty dark with a consistent message and fight the affair head on.

I will say this isn't for the faint of heart

You will receive a lot of flack from some people and support from others.

Pay no attention to the flack.......they don't have a clue about infidelity and use the support as best you can.


You can start small if you want.....by reaching out to your parents and hers.

Its up to you how nuclear you want to take this.

Try to focus your efforts on the OM......find out more about him......his friends.......coworkers......parents.....kids.....ex wife..a wife you may not know about...anybody.

Start mapping his support network, this could prove useful if you decide to expose it that far.

OM will be beyond mad, I assure you.......and w/ you out of the picture......he only has one person to fight with.......your WW.

The goal here is to cause conflict in their relationship to speed up its demise.

I'll add more later if you want......but again some people don't want to cause trouble, I did post this in another thread, I think it will give you something to think about.



it's from the poster Puppy Dog Tails

I've only seen one of two methods ever work with a wayward and/or a cheating spouse: either Allen A's consistent, boundary-laying, affair-exposing, throw-everything-you-got-at-'em approach... or, Robx's/Gucci's "You know what, I agree, maybe this is best as I'm tired of your crap behavior anyway/time to move on" approach. Or perhaps some combination of the two.