W had another rough day today, but said she wasn't in a bad mood, just tired. After talking with my IC counselor today about the fact that things were going well and she hadn't brought up moving out or anything, she brought it up tonight.
She said that considering the weekend and the past few weeks made her think about a lot of things, but still didn't change the way she felt about me. She then asked what the plan was for me moving out. She asked if it was for me to stay until the end of the year. I said I don't know we hadn't really talked about it, and that was pretty much it.
She is concerned because she is giving advice to other people that if you want things to work out, they can if you are willing to put the work in. She hears herself saying that, and is thinking (according to her sister) that she is conflicted about what to do and taking her own advice. But then somewhere along the way today she reinforced in her own mind that she still felt the same way and wants to be done.
That's what confuses me, and her sister. She was conflicted during lunch today, when she had the talk with her sister, but tonight had resolved to stay on course. I'm not sure what the difference was, but it doesn't really change anything for me. I said I understand, and that I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing with no expectations or pressure.
And I will do just that. As 25years said, time and consistency are key. I'm here until the end of the year, and 3 more months of this type of relationship will hopefully give her pause. She is still convinced that she has nothing left for me, and the only way that can change (if possible) is with time and consistency.
I just wish she'd open up a little and see the possibility of a good relationship. Ah well, if it happens it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
Our next MC is Thursday, and I'm wondering about asking her about this (previous post). I was thinking about asking her to clarify what she meant that it gave her a lot to think about, as I want to understand what she's going through. I'm not sure if I should get her permission beforehand so that she doesn't feel ambushed, though if I present it as truly trying to understand (which really that's all I'm looking for right now) she is less likely to feel negative about the question.
However, I'm not certain. I feel like given the situation and what we are trying to achieve in MC, better communication, it's a valid question. Thoughts?
Our next MC is Thursday, and I'm wondering about asking her about this (previous post). I was thinking about asking her to clarify what she meant that it gave her a lot to think about, as I want to understand what she's going through. "What she's going through"??? Let HER tell YOU...
Otherwise, that is just more r talk, temperature taking and pursuit.
You want to do that? Really?
Why not let her talk more (you less) and you just gather data, like a "recon" mission AND KEEP DOING YOUR OWN WORK!!
Earlier in your posts you would "own" an issue of yours and say you were going to work on it
[b]but nearly always you would then follow up with something about HER that needed changing...and your concern that SHE wasn't looking at HER... that "scorekeeping" will defeat you.
Just focus on your own stuff in your own sandbox and stay out of hers. Don't make this about assignment of blame and believe me, that is what it was.
You must see that by now.
hey SHE has to believe marriage to you can be better and different.
WHAT IS DIFFERENT /BETTER ABOUT YOU NOW?
Her beliefs won't change from you , again, "correcting" her flaws or her misperceptions (ie you trying to convince her that you are right...please get this)...
It will come by her believing you are different now, by seeing a different you.
[/b] The underlying fear she has is that your change are 1) not real 2) not lasting 3) real but will change if SHE recons with you 4) it's too late.
The only sensible approach you have to this^^^ is to keep the changes going for YOU. Then you'll convince her of the first 3 and as for whether it's too late
maybe time apart will reveal that or maybe not. But TIME will. Don't keep letting your neediness push her farther away.
I'm not sure if I should get her permission beforehand so that she doesn't feel ambushed, though if I present it as truly trying to understand (which really that's all I'm looking for right now) she is less likely to feel negative about the question.
However, I'm not certain. I feel like given the situation and what we are trying to achieve in MC, better communication, it's a valid question. Thoughts?
If your question is, "how are you feeling about us?" be prepared to get an answer you don't want, and her verbalizing it cements it in her head/heart more.
Why not let her set the pace and agenda until if and when you have a matter you MUST discuss?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Earlier in your posts you would "own" an issue of yours and say you were going to work on it
but nearly always you would then follow up with something about HER that needed changing...and your concern that SHE wasn't looking at HER... that "scorekeeping" will defeat you.
Just focus on your own stuff in your own sandbox and stay out of hers. Don't make this about assignment of blame and believe me, that is what it was.
You must see that by now.
I understand you're covering all the bases, however I truly do just want to understand without assessing any blame. I could see me asking going either way, and your response lets me know that it could very likely be perceived as scorekeeping or pursuing the relationship. I certainly don't want to push her further away, especially since we've drawn closer.
Thank you for your response 25, I can count on you for honesty. I appreciate it.
As you've noted, I'm no longer correcting or pursuing her, I'm simply continuing to work on myself and our communication, as well as enjoying the time we have together.
Thank you again, I greatly appreciate your responses.
Yeah well, W sister ratted me out and let her know that I asked some questions. W grilled me and accused me of bringing sister into the middle of things, even though it'd been a month since I've spoken with her. W was pissed, resolved to be done. Her obstinance was a real turn-off, and I think that it's time for me to be withdrawn again.
Don't really like being grilled for asking POV of SIL. She's been a good friend for 15 years, and though it [censored], she's aware of it and that it [censored]. W seems to think that everything will be shiny and happy on the way to D, but I disagree, since I don't want D. She seems to fluctuate between reasonable and omfg crazy.
So back to square one, which is to say, all progress reversed because I asked for POV of SIL.
[quote=silveryposter]Yeah well, W sister ratted me out and let her know that I asked some questions. W grilled me and accused me of bringing sister into the middle of things, which you DID.
even though it'd been a month since I've spoken with her. No discussion with sil is appropriate, let alone two.
W was pissed, resolved to be done. Her obstinance was a real turn-off, and I think that it's time for me to be withdrawn again. Don't really like being grilled for asking POV of SIL. She's been a good friend for 15 years, and though it [censored], she's aware of it and that it [censored]. W seems to think that everything will be shiny and happy on the way to D, but I disagree, since I don't want D.
how does talking to your sil help at all with that? Your wife will learn what she learns, and it won't be you teaching her.
Please stop trying to make her see the light. It's not your job. And YOU are the last person who can teach HER that....
She seems to fluctuate between reasonable and omfg crazy.
So back to square one, which is to say, all progress [b]reversed because I asked for POV of SIL. [/quote][/b]
well it is poll taking, but with the idea of influencing the poll. It LOOKS manipulative even if you don't mean it to.
And it's pursuit. You make some progress and then it's like you HAVE to have it lead somewhere and then you blow it.
Saying you haven't asked for a month may sound like a long time to you,
but to me it's a "never ask sil" question so asking twice is crazy. A month isn't long either.
As for the scorekeeping and assessing things
there isn't anything for you to assess now except how YOUR progress is.
Think of it like jurisdictions of the states. Iowa doesn't tell Florida what to do and New York doesn't spend time looking at Texas to see how it is handling Texans problems.
You keep thinking you have to somehow check in your w's progress or growth or accountability
(or so I think) and it is counter productive and not your job and BAD timing too.
Back off, and know that as the 12 steppers say- "mistakes are not tragedies, but dear God let us learn from them."
Don't repeat this mistake. Learn, improve and grow. Be the best man YOU can be and please, just leave the results up to God.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
First off, thanks 25 for your consistent responses and advice. They are truly appreciated.
Secondly, I welcome advice and response from others on this board as well. Don't be shy, I'm ready to hear the stuff I didn't want to years ago, so let me have it!
Some quick journaling...
MC was on Friday, and we talked about our breakdown in communication as noted a couple posts above. What came out of that was essentially recognizing a trust issue. MC was quick to point out that many folks going through this, and then on through divorce and beyond, have a complete lack of trust which affects all aspects of a relationship, married or not.
Many of you are probably familiar with the basics, but what is pertinent in my case (can't speak for my W) is that I don't trust her now because I feel like she has betrayed the love I've given. Simple on the surface but more complex in reality. While this isn't necessarily a revelation, my actions due to my mistrust are very much a revelation. The key, according to MC, is letting go (very much as DB puts it) of your fear. While I've let go a lot, I haven't let go completely, and I can get defensive over comments that aren't offensive.
I continue to recognize behavior patterns in myself, and continue to address these for the betterment of my life. I recognize many of the same patterns in my wife, but I don't do anything other than recognize them; that's for her to address.
So this all brings me to my question. Taking everything with a grain of salt has been helpful on many occasions, but I do miss the mark sometimes. Some of the advice given here on DB is to believe none of what she does and only half of what she says. I am looking for some experience on this as far as what others have done.
If I treat her that way 100% of the time it would be like having a relationship with someone you truly mistrust. Since I need to build trust, I need some insight into how to balance these two things.
But just want to say that any growth in your w, IF and when it happens- you will be the last to know.
They say the fastest way to end a r is to take its' temperature. So stop doing it.
Whether it's temp taking with her or her sister or a neighbor, etc. it's still temperature taking and it's not relevant NOW as it could change tomorrow anyway...mostly temp taking harms the r (and probably never helps!)
WHat matters now is your work on you
Remember the jurisdiction analogy? Each state cares for its own citizens (issues) and doesn't look at or go into other states to fix theirs...
Okay so take care of your states' affairs and leave your w's alone. Don't even stare "across the borders"...why? B/c that staring (obessing) takes mental and emotional energy that ought to be spent on YOUR STATE (ie your life).
Are you being the best YOU that you can be?
How are those 180s? What are they now? And how are those GAL activities? Let's hear about them.
Just your stuff....never mind her state or her sandbox or whatever metaphor works best, is doing.
As for what to believe of her words and actions....depends on the issue. Neither of you trust enough of what you say to each other and that's worth discussing.
See if the problem h and I are having and what we 're doing about it, helps.
It's actually about communication but SEEMS like it's about money...
Lately, (since mil's illness and death) there is one topic my h & I have to tip toe around these days. It's money. This is a new problem for us. Before a few years ago, we were a team and made the decisions jointly.
Recently I discovered our cash flow problems were due to choices mostly made by h, with which I either disagreed or had no knowldege of. That stinks.
I have not criticized him or the choice since learning what happened but that almost doesn't matter. (I did say "what about US making these choices like we used to?" And he got angry).
All I can say for sure is that he's unhappy and avoidant talking about money matters right now. I think he's disappointed in how his life is right now, and rather than feeling accountable and learning from it, seems he is angry. I admit I am angry that we are having this problem at this stage of our lives...and at having something hidden from me.
So, when we talk about money matters lately a lot of conflct and blame occurs. I have asked h to "recap" what I just said and I can honestly say that lately, 100% of the time I ask him to recap, he say s things he FEARS I MEANT TO SAY
but not what I actually said! Then when I repeat my exact words, he says "ah but you implied/meant something else" and that is hard to deal with silver.
see how destructive and crazy this can get?
"Geez, Why bother using language at all? Just read my mind and let your fears and guilt be your guide!"
So as you can see, you and your w are going to have to take words at face value or you'll get nowhere fast.
The "believe half of what they do and none of what they say" is not applicable to normal conversations about everyday things, USUALLY.
It's for MLCers and especially for those who revise the marital history or hurl out nasty commenbts about how they "never loved you", "never will", etc. Since You will NOT start any R talks or take the temperature, this approach only relates to normal matters or conflicts...
For r talks that she begins, you are to be in the "receiving data only" mode. Get information, knowing it isn't written in stone. But "Transmit" nothing.
After you have had time to process what she tells you and maybe run it by a T, you can give your response. No "reactions" so much as well considered choices. Make sense? In the meantime, here is what helps us get by these tricky crossings. Some of these may help you if they feel authentic or realistic for you to do. Avoid blame statements, stay on message and ask her to recap. And see if YOU can recap what she tells you.
I will begin by saying "I promise to tell you what I think. I won't leave out or imply anything other than what I say. I trust you to do and say the same" and go from there. Take what they say at face value. Don't make this new approach about "fixing the marriage" but about addressing the pending day to day issues and conflicts that you can improve upon, without making it R talk!
If you tell her "here are the new ideas!" that = tactics and or pursuit and may sound controlling,
just insert it into some discussion you two are having, Take a risk and trust her. These are not life and death issues anyhow so build trust and credibility on mundane matters, before you feel like you have to risk it all. And Lead by example.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Some of the advice given here on DB is to believe none of what she does and only half of what she says. I am looking for some experience on this as far as what others have done.
If I treat her that way 100% of the time it would be like having a relationship with someone you truly mistrust. Since I need to build trust, I need some insight into how to balance these two things.
I think you are misunderstanding the point of that aphorism. Plus you have it backwards. It's believe none of what she SAYS, and only half of what she DOES. That's because the WAS in crisis will say many things that, while hurtful, they don't actually mean (or even remember, once the fog clears!). So instead of over-reacting to the verbal spew, watch their BEHAVIORS (and recognize that half of THAT is bunk too).
One example - if a WAS is saying they will NEVER be with you again, but is calling all the time and acting jealous that you might be dating someone new - believe their actions and not their words, ok?
There are often a lot of unconscious things driving them, they may not even be aware of their feelings for a while.
AS far as trusting her in the future - that can be a tough one. But it might be a little premature to worry about that right now.
