W is moving out.....life goes on...

[In_Shock]

Journaling about the day:

Today W and i took S to the zoo for his 4th bday. *i've been calling him 4 for a while b/c he practically was*

It was a mixed bag. We ended up having not quite a R talk but talk about things. She told me she has noticed my changes but she does not trust them. One of her complaints, as I've said before, has been that I change on a whim so to speak. Such as going from being religious to not, from bickering to not, etc.... What she doesn't realize is that my changes are all long processes and not overnight.


Including these changes of the past few months.... I told her that I understand that she has to do what she has to do now, and tht I'm trying to back off and give her space.

She says she thinks I'm missing the point. I said, 'what is the point?" She says "that i'm done. I am not going to have a R with you again."

Instead of being completely detached though unfortunately i told her I still would ideally like for us to be together to raise S. I said I don't want the OLD relationship, rather I want us both to have time to grow and perhaps start over one day.

Somehow we went around in a few circles and she said she thinks my changes are wonderful. She wonders why I wanted reassurance from her that I'm changing. *i didn't think i did, but she's perceptive andi guess she picked up on it. * I told her i am in a good place *LIE* that I'm calm inside and that I'm learning that the only thing i can control is me and my actions (truth). I did ask if she would trust my changes and that if they were long standing, would she trust me again. She was kind of - yeah, I guess....

She did reiterate that the OW isn't the problem with us (she also says there is no 'us') that it is she doesn't trust my changes and that i've hurt her so many time in `13 years. I validated....I said I will never hurt you again, if Im ever given the chance to be with you again. She said, no because i won't let you....

She also thinks I'm interested in a girl I work with - and I got the feeling she hopes I am.... W said she is glad I feel that i can do my thing and she can do hers.... BUT in reality you guys know i am NOT interested in anyone and want so badly to save the M....

THEN i find out she's made plans to take S to OW's next weekend for a hayride.. I am NOT ok with that.....NOT OK. She said, oh, it wont be like i'm f'ing her in front of him....blah blah blah......SICKENING.

I'm really sad. MIL and FIL and my mom are coming for S's cake and ice cream later tonight. I'm just a wreck. What to do? How badly did I do? Did i just talk too much instead of just continuing to let her see the changes??

I'm depressed and really don't know what to do next. The OW and S next weekend thing just knocked whatever wind was in my sails out.

[In_Shock]

btw this all started over her texting at the gas station on the way up to the zoo. I said something about 'u are texting early' or something. Usually i dont say anything at ALL about the texting..... she said "i'll be glad to get away from THIS...you are up my a@@." (she's going out of town again next week....

I really really do NOT comment on the texting any at all any more. Don't know where that came from.

It's really starting to hurt spending time with her and knowing she wants to be with OW. It hurts SO much....today at the zoo, she wasn't really 'there' with us... She's mentioned moving out. Looking for a place when she returns from this trip. My DB coach said separation breeds separation.....but honestly, being with her is hurting so much....maybe I need some separation.

Does separation automatically breed more separation? Does it necessarily mean the end of the R? Maybe if we were in separate homes I could heal, stop being so emotional at times with all this sh@t in my face, and she could get her fill of OW and the fantasy would wear thin.....

What do you guys think?? I'm having a really bad day. So sad. Gotta prepare for the little dude's party, but omg, my heart is hurting so much right now.

Help!!!

[25yearsmlc]

Val you are right. When we have fun with S, I know it's got to be making her wonder if OW really is worth it. At least I hope that's what she's thinking....

you need to have fun with s4 no matter what. Create good memories and bonding experiences...for their own sake...

But don't assume she's thinking "OMG I sure will miss this and I should stay" while she's in her fog. She may be thinking "OW will like s4 a lot".

Avoid the assumptions if they steer your actions b/c Who knows what's in your w's head? Try not to mind read.

What we KNOW is that the good times you create now, will resurface later in w's memories.

When?

When you get out of the way of those memories, and back off enough for her to see things more clearly. While you pursue her, and OR tell her the "ILY" and "Will always be here", you keep the fog there longer, imo. (Not saying you are telling her ILY but feel as if you have said too much too often...in general).
.
So what to do?

Do what you KNOW is best for him, then best for you, and nothing intentionally harmful to your w...and let the cards fall where they fall.

Do I think your w will wake up? Ever?

Yes. But probably not for awhile.

Inshock, when those changes we've spoken of really take place in you through and through, they will emanate from you. And that's attractive as hell - you at your best seeing the world through the eyes of woman who knows and loves herself and others, thoroughly.

If your w eventually sees that, and still chooses otherwise, you'll have to accept her poor choice (free will can be a bitch)

but still find contentment knowing you became the best you that is possible and
KNOWING that the best you possible, isn't a woman likely to be alone for long.

Your best chance at reconciliation comes from doing the same thing that

will make you a happy, fulfilled single woman. So your course of action remains the same.

For now, back off even wondering, and detach...literally try to care LESS....

Imagine your life without her BUT with you being happy and put details into that vision...

and begin to make some parts of that vision into reality now.

It prepares you for a happy single life AND ALSO prepares you for a reconciliation better b/c if she wants back in soon,

she'll have to know things can be different and you will have to be ready for that,

as for her changes? Hey, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

((( )))

[In_Shock]

Yes, I've done too much ILY --- too much of that pursuing in the past week. This convo today was too much of me talking.........

Too much of me repeating the same things.

U are right--- she knows I'll always be there b/c I tell her that. Oh, 25, I really do feel that way. But the hurt is so strong right now.... DEEP. U know? I have always been the type who can talk my way out of anything. Until now.

What do you make of her kind of wanting me to get with this colleague at work? W said -- she's smart, u guys like the same things, etc.... Of course I did some DBing by saying, 'U know, i'm not sure u are wrong. There is some attraction there" I'm scared W wants me to go off with someone else - that would certainly assuage her guilt over OW. But does she REALLY? Has she thought any of this through?

I'm going to finish getting ready for the party..... I will be back later. 25, especially, please check in later. I get so much out of your insight.

[jbnati]

IS, don't beat yourself up about the conversation with hyour W. None of us can be 100% perfect all the time. We will ALL backslide from time to time on the DB'ing. I think the most important thing you can do is learn from what you did wrong and what you did right. Concentrate on doing more of the right next time.

I don't agree either your W taking your S to be over at the OW's for a hayride. However, there's probably not a whole lot you can do about it. I'm sure she has fully justified this in her mind. I do not like what this kind of stuff does to our kids.

Hopefully the changes you have made are for you and your own self improvement. Hopefully they are leading you toward being the best IS possible. If that's the case, you will be able with the changes even if your W doesn't trust them. It will take some time for her to be able to trust the changes.

Regarding moving out - she doesn't need your permission to move out. If she does move out, use it to your advantage. Enjoy the lack of drama.

It seems like with the colleague at work, she is projecting a bit of herself on you. I think you're right - part of it is to assauge her own guilt. I got the same thing - there is a woman at my work who has recently been D'd (LBS BTW) and she came in conversation the night of bomb #2. It wasn't the first time either. I can't say she's not attractive, but I refuse to comprimise my own morals and beliefs because of what my W is doing.

That's my 2 cents.

[Rick1963]

HUGS and hang in there. I know how you feel it will pass. That's what I tell myself. IS I don't recommed any new R with a new person at this time. I have had women hit on me lately and it is the last thing on my mind. You W is very confused and feeling guilty like JB said.

[In_Shock]

thanks jb -- i have been backsliding more since she returned last week from the work trip. Even though i was doing well when she was gone, for some reason I've had a harder time detaching when she's been back. I think I'm so afraid the OW stuff is intensifying..... I know it will before it peters out but holy cow my mind is trying to kill me I keep trying the stop sign thing -- it seems when w and I have a moment of closeness - like last Sunday night when she talked openly to me about a lot of stuff.... it then goes downhill. I've noticed that on others' sitches also.

Yes, the changes ARE ultimately for me. Not tactics to get W back. That will be nice if it happens, but i really do want to grow and improve myself.

I know she can't trust the changes -- she even said again last night again that 'ideally' it would be me, her and S together. But the whole "I love you but not in the way i need to to sustain a relationship" that she said --- she told me that is because she just doesn't trust me. And she reiterated that there was nothing 'big' that caused our problems -- a lot of little things over a long time.

Let me break this up and give some specifics -- I'm working to process all this in my head and my heart. It's the hardest thing I've ever been through, and I've had some hard times in my past...

[In_Shock]

thanks too Rick. NO -- MY head is nowhere near a new R. Rebounds are not for me. Someone always gets hurt and I'm not going to become the one who uses someone else to make my own pain less. I've seen too many people do that.

I'm way too messed up from all this --- probably for a very long time.

[In_Shock]

Ok -- let me break down the whole TRUST thing that has permeated this thing. First of all, I got really religious on W for a few years early on in the R. She felt abandoned by me (even though I never knew because she went to church, read the bible with me at night, did devotionals, led church worship, etc...) I thought she was right there with me. Well, in most Christian churches, gay people are not accepted so we were closeted. At some point some nosy women from the church confonted us - 'fired' us from our jobs as worship leader (W - who is a great singer :)) and me as a sunday school teacher. They pretty much told us we were going to hell, etc.....

At that point they told W she needed to move out. They believed I was controlling (I'm very quiet believe it or not and at that time 2005 even more shy) So W's mom had told them I was controlling W, wouldn't 'let' her have friends, etc... NOT TRUE. As I've said before I kind of relied on W to make friends and then I latched on to them... my own fear of people. I was built up to be a real pariah in the eyes of these people.

I had a choice to make. Did I want to stay with W or stay with the church? I went into scholar mode- studied, etc... I had been questioning for a long time, but then I confirmed it. I had developed into an agnostic. This was not a FAST transformation inside. It had been coming. The church confrontation just pushed it to the top.

I told W I truly loved her, was sorry she felt abandoned and I would make it up to her. We had a renewal in our R that was amazing. We even got the butterflies, lol, when we would see each other at night after work... a couple of years== fantastic.

Our R was so strong we bought a home in 2006 and adopted S in 2007.

That religious story is the BIG thing that W brings up in terms of trusting my changes. But I've been consistent with that one since 2005....it's 2011!!!!

Other trust/change thing is when we first got together we kind of 'bickered' a lot. My family does that. it's meaningless, and the way we relate I guess..lol. W was upset by that, told me -- and I STOPPED. made a conscious decision to stop bickering. She now tells me that shows that i can change on a whim....HMMMMMMM It wasn't easy -- very conscious choice, made out of love and to improve our R.

I'm just throwing all this out there because any perspective helps me process. She also complained to her mom that I didn't do enough around the house --which i really did quite a bit, but I guess not enough. one of my 180's has been to do even more things and without being asked.

She told me also that I put work, my writing, my doctoral program, my aging mother before her and S. I can see that now. I do think I spent too much time pursuing my goals and things and didn't spend enough time nurturing the R.

The problem is NOW the things she wanted me to do before in terms of putting her first would be pursuing. I'm just rambling. Processing, as I said. Wondering if all R's are so damn difficult. Hoping I can win back my W and have a chance to make it all up to her because she is a wonderful, kind, generous person who I do love with all my heart. Hoping I can keep watering the grass on my side and OW will fade.....

Thanks for reading all my ponderings. Writing helps...

[25yearsmlc]

Ok -- let me break down the whole TRUST thing that has permeated this thing. First of all, I got really religious on W for a few years early on in the R. She felt abandoned by me (even though I never knew because she went to church, read the bible with me at night, did devotionals, led church worship, etc...) I thought she was right there with me. Well, in most Christian churches, gay people are not accepted so we were closeted. At some point some nosy women from the church confonted us - 'fired' us from our jobs as worship leader (W - who is a great singer :)) and me as a sunday school teacher. They pretty much told us we were going to hell, etc.....

I'm so sorry you had this^^^^ experience. Worse, I'm sorry you allowed the narrowmindedness of a few, cost you the comfort and love of your faith.
Someone very close to me recently came out. She attended a Jesuit University and took a class in homosexuality in the Bible.

To my shock, she explained the "debate" some theological circles in the Catholic Church are having about this very topic. I know this isn't the place for a discussion of this topic, but I want you to know that there are a LOT of places where it's not condemned & where I live, they have openly gay members in the church and in the clergy.


At that point they told W she needed to move out. They believed I was controlling (I'm very quiet believe it or not and at that time 2005 even more shy)

excuse me? Who is "they"?

So W's mom had told them I was controlling W, wouldn't 'let' her have friends, etc... NOT TRUE. As I've said before I kind of relied on W to make friends and then I latched on to them... my own fear of people.

okay THIS^^^^ is a mandatory 180 for YOU to make for YOU....it's no way to live well and that's all I am going to say. Join something, reach out and take a frickin' chance (and go to that workshop and make your needs known to the community there-perfect example of a real push out of your comfort zone).



I was built up to be a real pariah in the eyes of these people.

I had a choice to make. Did I want to stay with W or stay with the church? I went into scholar mode- studied, etc...

SIGH...see my above comments....


I had been questioning for a long time, but then I confirmed it. I had developed into an agnostic. This was not a FAST transformation inside. It had been coming. The church confrontation just pushed it to the top.

well, duh....who wouldn't have their faith tested beyond the breaking point if the so called "fellow faith people" condemn you??

You need a new church!!

I told W I truly loved her, was sorry she felt abandoned

she probably felt that church shamed her and you were associated with it. Bummer...but honestly why were you in a church worshipping our Creator in a place you had to hide yourself?? Okay enough said...

I just hope you see that it isn't faith in God that hurt you, but faith in the wrong people.

It isn't God who let you down, but that damned free will we have...


and I would make it up to her. We had a renewal in our R that was amazing. We even got the butterflies, lol, when we would see each other at night after work... a couple of years== fantastic.

Our R was so strong we bought a home in 2006 and adopted S in 2007.

Good stuff....she won't forget the good times when she has the space to allow the good memories to resurface.


That religious story is the BIG thing that W brings up in terms of trusting my changes. But I've been consistent with that one since 2005....it's 2011!!!!

Not sure what that^^ means? She does or does not believe you can change? And if you can change, then somehow that means you are superficial or the change would not have been possible?? What? So you are damned if you do and damned if you don't...great. I'm not clear on this^^.


Other trust/change thing is when we first got together we kind of 'bickered' a lot. My family does that. it's meaningless, and the way we relate I guess..lol. W was upset by that, told me -- and I STOPPED. made a conscious decision to stop bickering. She now tells me that shows that i can change on a whim....HMMMMMMM It wasn't easy -- very conscious choice, made out of love and to improve our R.

same thing...you are doomed to change and keep changing, into what? someone OUT of love with her? What?


I'm just throwing all this out there because any perspective helps me process. She also complained to her mom that I didn't do enough around the house --which i really did quite a bit, but I guess not enough. one of my 180's has been to do even more things and without being asked.

Good 180^^^. That's all you can do NOW, so keep it going and let go of your past mistakes...it's not a reason for divorce so don't go on and on about that either way. I mean, I wouldn't stay with someone b/c they clean up well either.


She told me also that I put work, my writing, my doctoral program, my aging mother before her and S. I can see that now. I do think I spent too much time pursuing my goals and things and didn't spend enough time nurturing the R.

Ambition is good, workaholism isn't. Welcome to my world. But life is often a balancing act. Not a 49/51 thing so much as 80 one week and 20 the next...like a swinging pendulum...make sense?

as for your aging mother...gee, what a selfish beyotch you are...wonder who will take care of your w when she's old? Her new gf is too old...and where sill s4 be, with HIS family making THEM his priority? Really?

My mil was NOT kind to me, at all. Nor was she mentally well--bad crazy. But she got terminal cancer and I flew out for the chemo, had her in our home and put myself out there b/c she's my h's mom. And my kids grandmother and that's what you do....I showed up...

And that is not something I regret.

Back to my h's insane work habits, on one hand his ambitions were at times selfish b/c you get more pats on the back and awards and bonuses and promotions at work, then you do at home....

but we'd be broke jokes in this economy if it weren't for his work habits so, it ain't perfect but I choose to be grateful for the traits that have SOME upsides and yours do too.

The problem is NOW the things she wanted me to do before in terms of putting her first would be pursuing.

Then do them without her. IOW do UNwork related things, but with other friends and son, and mystery peeps if you have to (you still need to join something with new people!!--GAL thing).

Wondering if all R's are so damn difficult.

me too...me too....

Hoping I can win back my W and have a chance to make it all up to her because she is a wonderful, kind, generous person who I do love with all my heart. Hoping I can keep watering the grass on my side and OW will fade.....

Thanks for reading all my ponderings. Writing helps...

as for the OW that your w suggests you date---

forget it. That is a lose lose for you, at least at this time.

It is designed to prove that she is right & you two are wrong for each other.

And how fair is it to that poor other woman, for you to date her so that what, you can make your w jealous? Or prove that your w is NOT jealous--hurts you more!

no way.

IF you want some mystery then come up with real mystery as in a woman your w does not know (let her fears of the Catherine Zeta Jones flare up)

b/c if you are too predictable then your w thinks she knows you so well she can figure it out all ahead of time and knows your changes are not real or lasting or blah blah blah

BEING MYSTERIOUS means not being predictable.

Instead of agreeing that her suggested OW for you, is in fact attractive to you, act surprised that she'd think YOU would feel that way about OW OR that you would act on it

b/c frankly, the only person you even considered dating other than your w would be....um someone else. she does not know....and drop that.

B/C you want THIS R to work, and then stay on that topic.

IOW you can allude to the theoretical possibility of someone else

down the road but you "can't handle more than one wife at a time" and you are emotionally/mentally (legally?) married to her now.

Have FUN today and stay off the R talks.

Yeah I did shake my head when you said "a little r talk that hurt"

b/c then I knew it was r talk!!! If it weren't R talk, it would not hurt!

And of course you have to stop the "see my changes" discussions.

Frankly I don't know what's worse the "R talks" or the "see my changes" talks....and that is my 2 x 4 for you. You did both!!

When she says "I noticed your changes and that's nice BUT"

...all you say is

"well I always knew I wanted to work on 'x' and 'y' anyhow"....and so it doesn't matter that SHE believes in them

or that SHE belives they will last or that SHE is still holding onto HER version of the past...

These changes are FOR YOU to become the best woman you can become.

SHE is not relevant to THAT....do you see that? Believe it.

So when those changes we keep talking about and that I believe are happening for real, DO happen,

you won't have to say anything. It'll be manifest.

She's trying to convince herself that you becoming who and what she wanted and needed isn't enough b/c that will have to change her trajectory.


That is a good thing in a way. She IS torn...thank GOD.

And like you said, Relationships are hard. It's easy to see the appeal of just starting fresh and wiping the slate clean isn't it?

(esp with those effortless emotional connections....--needed: an emoticon that rolls its' eyes)

But the rewards are high too, I think. When our son25 or d22 graduated from college it was a beautiful moment of parental pride that belongs to PARENTS....

that ONLY the other parent can really "get". It's the one thing about my kids having kids that excites me (otherwise it makes me feel old)
and that too, will be something only the other parent can really "get"...

imagine the high school graduation of s4 in 14 years and you and w being there as a couple...

or with other people. Neither image is "bad"--but one is surely better than the other, right?

it's those moments that matter....and life is made up of them.

Hang in there..
We DBers don't have all the answers. We're mostly good at telling you what NOT to do.

EE will address your "to Do" list way better than I can...hope you are going-let me know soon.

((( )))