PLEASE!!! Need help quick! Calling all vets!

[AntoniaB]

I agree with GAG that 25 years' post above is really helpful for many reasons.

Tad I've given you a ton of advice just as everyone here has, over and over.

Maybe what I need to tell you is my biggest REGRET. Know what it is? That I didn't wake up more quickly to putting more energy into my own recovery and making a life for myself instead of wasting all those days and months on worrying and questioning and pining over someone who hurt me more and did more damage to me than anyone on this earth ever will. Regardless of why he did that damage or what role I played in the marital problems, I would never in a million years have wasted all that energy on anyone but him, and that's a real tragedy.

It never got me anything to invest all that energy in wondering/worrying about him and his choices. All it did was make me weaker by the day. There is no payoff to being stuck, unless for some reason, you secretly love the pain or being a martyr and you feed off that.

Let's hope that's not the case for you.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Tad listen to Antonia.
There is nothing we can do, nothing we can say, to change the road our spouses are on. You appear to still be looking for the magic combination that will unlock the door to reason, and reconciliation.

There isn't one.

They are lost to us. Perhaps for good.
For now that choice is theirs, and we are left sorting through the wreckage of their leaving and making our lives function without them.
In the future should they figure their garbage out and want to return; the choice to forgive, accept, or reject their return is then ours.

We can only be the best people we know how to be. We can only work on becoming more than what we now are. We can only work on becoming emotionally healthy, and obtaining new tools FOR OURSELVES, not for them. That's what DB is about, having a new skill set and tools!

We deserve to live our lives to the fullest and be who we were truly meant to be with or WITHOUT them. Yes, it's damned hard work, and we often feel like folding in on ourselves in misery.

You have a choice Tad, you can choose to see her leaving as a punishment or a release. You can develop new skills and tools for her possible return, but also in case you develop another relationship. You'll be much better equipped to deal with things in either case!

Is it easy to change your perspective? No. It involves reevaluating many things and your place in the world. It involves challenging assumptions you had, testing the things you believed to be true, and seeing your role in things with courage and honesty.

Tad I made a bucket list of all the things I wanted to do, but felt I could not do with my STBX or in my circumstance. I realize I had held myself back.
What things did you want to do but felt you couldn't with the W in the picture?

I plan to go hot air ballooning as soon as my finances allow. Champagne trip. Perhaps in early November.

Tad letting go is hard, but she's already gone and has been for a while. You're holding on to a illusion now. An illusion of what was, and not what is. She's gone Tad. Your arms are holding mist.

It's a real loss and it's like they died to us. In a sense they have.

(((Hugs))))

[25yearsmlc]

Tad,

QOS and Antonia have said it all so well.. They are lost to us, for now. And my biggest regret, as I have told you before, was how long I took to wake up and live MY life. I went skydivinng for my birthday, took a trip to Italy for our 25th anniversary and brought my kids with me. Best trip of my life (til a recent trip with my h)

b/c I could not stand the idea of wondering about h on our anniversary. He had sent me roses the year before BUT MOVED OUT so yeah, a few mixed signals???

I finally faced the fact that although h never said he wanted a divorce, he DID leave and he did say he was "willing to take the chance" of losing us when he moved to the "Last Frontier"....(he has no recall of saying that but I can tell you where I was and what I was doing when those words came out of his mouth)

HE DID MOVE OUT....first to go back to school 300 miles "up the road" (his words) and then 3000 miles away "Just to check out a job"....

He left us all for a job, which to him was an adventure.

Regardless of why, he left me and our kids and home. That's what matters. Not what he SAID or Planned...but that he was gone.

He blamed me for "holding him back all these years"

...This is a man whom I supported through 2 medical degrees and a residency AND a fellowship at an Ivy League school. Geez, if only I hadn't held him back - he'd have cured cancer.

Sorry everyone!)

Tad,

25 is a very wise woman and has much experience with MLC and mental health issues. It may be overwhelming for you to think about changing your mindset totally, but can you think about making your changes one day at a time, like someone recovering from substance abuse? We ARE recovering, so this approach makes sense.

Thanks for the compliments.

Tad, I DO think incremental changes, over time, get us to a very different place than we'd otherwise be. You don't have to overhaul yourself...

I saw this clearly on my d14's geometry homework the other day. Draw an angle of say, 30', and then extend it out 12 in. Call that Point A. Now change it by 5' and then draw out the line it makes, 12 inches away. ( I wish I had graph paper here!!)

Anyhow, can you see how far away you end up, from your original path's destination, just by making a small course correction, over time? THAT is what we mean...Point "A" is where you were headed, but point "B" is where you could go instead....and even though you only moved your original angle by 5', or merely altered your behaviors a bit, it ends up a good distance from where you were headed....over time...

I hope this makes as much sense to you guys as it does to me with graph paper in front of me.



25,

Your posts always speak to me but the one above ESPECIALLY spoke to me. My XH has a BMF who really interfered in our R as well. I have been very puzzled how the wonderful H I knew then could be so deceived and so loyal to his "sick" BMF. How did you reconcile that aspect of your H's behavior with the H that you know and love?


TAD-sorry for the hijack---

I can't say I "reconciled" it, ever, but I did accept it.

And I accept that there are things I will NEVER understand, so I no longer spend time asking why, or how, about something in the past.

If I can't figure it out with some good objective introspection or a t, then I let it go. Some things remain mysteries to me.

H and I are both adult children of alcoholics and though a lot of that labelling can lead to wallowing in victimhood, there are some traits that stand out to me, as valid, in both of us.

We are both very loyal, even to the point of it being blind loyalty. We both "show up" for people we loved as kids even if it's been decades since we last spoke.

My h needed a hero, and when h was young, his own father was too angry and flawed for h to see as a hero. (Interestingly, today he sees his father in a much better light).

H had a hero as a young man-the big brother hero guy who helped him with girls and life and having an alcoholic father, before big bro got drafted.

Years later they reconnected. My h had passed his hero long before, when he finished college with honors, went to vet school and then med school and when h had the military pay for school he had to repay with time in. That meant h was IN the military and naturally he outranked the big brother who only served briefly as an enlisted man. (I have both officers and enlisted in my family and it's no biggie to us, but to big bro, it mattered. At first big bro seemed proud of h...but then that morphed into something like teasing, and then something ugly....I should write about it).

Unfortunately h's hero let him down. But h still believed deep down, that the flawed human contained his orignial hero. And the big bro friend DID have his moments. It was not all a nightmare for me. But in time, it became extremely difficult for me to talk to big bro.

He became so damaged long before I met him, that I had to simply stand back and let it unfold.


When H left for the tundra, leaving you and his family behind, I would imagine he kept strong ties with BF. How did you reconcile that?

well, "Strong ties?" I don't think so....but I know they spoke.

Thing is, the contrast between how my kids and I were living and how big bro and h were living, (we went to Italy for our 25th anniversary-"we" meaning me and the kids) probably struck h in a way that helped me.

Meaning, if h were to follow in his friend's footsteps for very long, what would h get? How "fun" would his life really become?

Lots of beer and bitter rants & "companionship."

I know when they spoke, that big bro bashed ME big time...but guess what he also did?

big bro actually asked ME to join HIM...as in, "leave" h, file for divorce and live with big bro, so that big bro "would sure show h"...

WTF? As if....OMG....

That was the last time I answered the phone b/c we finally got Caller ID.

No, I never told h that his "bf" asked me to file for divorce and join him. Now that he's dead, what's the point?

But I think h saw his friend through clearer eyes when he got up to the tundra. At some point my h must have lifted his head from the goals he had set, removed the blinders and said "where is everyone?"

And we were here, in our sunny environment with a warm loving home, with laughter and growing children and friends and joy...

if h wanted what big bro had, he could choose that but I would not be joining him in what I saw as self imposed hell. (I don't mean Alaska is hell, but living that far away from your family and hurting them to go there, simply cannot lead one to happiness, imo).

And finally, when H and I began to piece together and then reconcile, big bro took his own life. We didn't even know for some time...

I held h and told him how sorry I was for his loss. His hero would never come back. In a way, he died in Vietnam when h was a senior in high school.

What else is there to say?



Sorry for the hijack (my question to 25) Tad...........Keep moving forward, Tad.

GAG

Gag, I think your h's bf, if he is sick, then his pathology will be revealed.

Last h heard from his big bro (before the suicide obviously) the big bro sounded so angry and depressed and miserable

I suspect, but do not "know", that h was afraid of ending up like him.

Maybe your h has to see the end result of his bmf's choices to wake up.

Or worse, maybe he'll have to experience them? I'll find your thread if I can.

Tad, hope some of this helps and again, sorry for the hijack.

[crushednstuck]

[Maybe what I need to tell you is my biggest REGRET. Know what it is? That I didn't wake up more quickly to putting more energy into my own recovery and making a life for myself instead of wasting all those days and months on worrying and questioning and pining over someone who hurt me more and did more damage to me than anyone on this earth ever will].

This is tough love Tad, but as I mark two years post bomb, it is something you need to take to heart.

They are cruel. Mine is remorseless. Move. Place no value on what she says brother. Embrace the forgiveness of
"release" because you may not ever receive the forgiveness of "pardoning" her. Because that takes acknowledgement of her betrayal. By allowing forgiveness of "release" you are able to move forward and forgive her because you release the control she has over your emotions. Do it. You're a prolific poster here bordering on pathetic.

My W is hot. She is the beautiful mother of my children. I miss her immensely, but she is pure evil now. I dread the fact that I won't find anyone as pretty and engaging, but I can no longer be treated like a doormat.

Like mine, many won't acknowledge the devastation they are wreaking on the people that love them most; including kids.

These things are said from love, for your situation and for my W who knows not what she does. But its time to grab some sack and lead our lives as the head of our families regardless of the pain inflicted by our Ws.

Pick up that sword. Attach the breastplate and fix the helmet. Love your family intensely; pull your friends close and grasp hold of your faith. Move forward as we all need to do. Only they themselves can pull themselves from the muck and follow your leadership - without your urging.

[tadpole1025]

Hi everyone. I haven't posted in a few days so I thought that I would get on here and update everyone and respond to all of the comments.

As for my w/sitch, there isn't much to report except that I go to divorce court in 11 days. W told S16 that on the day of the divorce she will be spending time with friends because she will be "happy and sad." Happy that it is all behind her, but sad because her marriage is ending.

I picked up S16 from her house on Sunday. It was uneventful. She didn't even come to the door or my car like she usually does.

From all of the reading that I've done, I believe that W has been in "replay" for about 15 months. I guess she still has some stewing to do.

As for me, I'm okay. Things are getting easier, but still aren't easy. I realized today though that I put up with a lot of crap from her in our marriage as well. I'm not saying that I was perfect, but she was a big contributor as well. She has always been so angry and has spent a lot of time yelling at me and our boys, she was moody, I spent so much time working my butt off so she could go to school for the past 15 years, she ran this place, she treated me like sh!t a lot of times and would yell for no reason and the list goes on. I'm just saying that she wasn't the "perfect wife" just like I was not the "perfect husband."

I kick myself just about everyday because of the mistakes that I made in the beginning of this mess before I knew about MLC and this website. I was about 3 months too late I guess. I wonder if I could have saved this thing.

I find myself still wanting to "convince" her or try to talk some sense into her, but I know that it is a no-no.

There is a woman at my job that has asked me out to dinner 4 times now. I've avoided it so far but......

I spent last weekend with a friend just for a change of scenery. It was nice. I see W everywhere I look in my house. I can't wait to get the hell out of here in a few months.

Tad, of all the posters in MLC, you come across as the most desperate, the most needy, the most dependent. If I, who only reads the words you have written, not seeing your face, feels that coming through your posts, what more of your W? No wonder she wants to run far, far away. I'm sorry Tad, but that is my honest to goodness impression.

Please don't apologize Angel. You are right I'm sure. Another poster here told me the same thing. The problem that I have with all of this is: if I "act as if" everything is ok around my W, she may think that I am ok with D. I am not.

I have read so much about this, and in almost all of them, the same principles apply: Do not talk, persuade, make them se reason or logic, ask for help..... because it WILL NOT WORK! The more you pressure them, guilt them, make them see how pathetic you are, how needy, how you depend on them for happiness.....

the faster they will run away from the weight of the responsibility.

I get this, but unfortunately, I made all of those mistakes in the beginning. W even told me that I drove her further away. Like I said, I wish I could have found this place sooner.

I do agree that you don't argue. But I do not agree that you agree with everything. That's not focusing on you. Not arguing is there because you can't argue with the "logic" she has. It's her reality or at least she tries to make it so. There are times when things are distorted and I see no reason to lie about it with them. To be complicit in the lies is not being true to you. Not arguing is not the same as agreeing. Validating that she feels that way and that you understand she feels that way (at the moment) is a good approach IMHO.

Agreeing with them is not the right answer in my opinion.

Thanks AJ. I will not agree, but I will also not argue.

FWIW, mine has said the exact same words. She wants to be friends and then takes steps to push me away.

I swear if this wasn't happening to us, it would almost be comical. Mine told me she wanted to be very good friends and then deletes me as a friend on FB less than two weeks later. Wow.

You might be surprised what happens when you give them what they want.

Well Drew, she is getting what she wants. I'm out of ammo. D happens next Friday and there isn't a damn thing I can do about it buddy.

Me thinks, Tad thinks too much ......

Yep. Way too much. I need to stop reacting to everything she says and does.

Let your wife go and stop spending ANY energy on what she's thinking or doing now. Do it for 90 day increments til it either changes, or it gets easier.

Thanks 25. I'm getting better at it, but still slip from time to time.

Maybe what I need to tell you is my biggest REGRET. Know what it is? That I didn't wake up more quickly to putting more energy into my own recovery and making a life for myself instead of wasting all those days and months on worrying and questioning and pining over someone who hurt me more and did more damage to me than anyone on this earth ever will. Regardless of why he did that damage or what role I played in the marital problems, I would never in a million years have wasted all that energy on anyone but him, and that's a real tragedy.

You're right Antonia. I've already spent months and months wondering and hoping that she'll come to her senses. I should be rebuilding my life. I'm finally getting there though. I'll be honest though, this has taken so much longer than I ever thought it would. I'm really dreading the holidays because we always had so much fun with each other and the boys. It was such a special time around here.

In the future should they figure their garbage out and want to return; the choice to forgive, accept, or reject their return is then ours.

I've thought about this a lot Q of S and lately I'm not so sure if I could take her back right away. It would take so much time. The damage is just so great.

It's a real loss and it's like they died to us. In a sense they have.

I honestly believe that it is worse.

He blamed me for "holding him back all these years"

I've probably heard that line about 10 times!

They are cruel. Mine is remorseless. Move. Place no value on what she says brother.

I know buddy. I don't believe ANYTHING she says. It was rough to do at first because before this mess, I could trust her with anything and not even question her.

Thanks again everyone.

The beat goes on.....

Tad

[25yearsmlc]

Tad....

you wrote/said that:

"You are right I'm sure. Another poster here told me the same thing. The problem that I have with all of this is: if I "act as if" everything is ok around my W, she may think that I am ok with D. I am not."


Tad, this^^^ IS A LIE YOU and many others in your shoes, tell yourself for several reasons; some of which you don't even know.

One reason you tell yourself this lie is b/c you want her to know you are in pain. You fear "letting her off the hook", b/c you want her to be wracked with guilt about your terrible pain...(and maybe come home)

So you tell yourself she "ought" to know of this pain you carry with you 24/7....despite overwhelming evidence that it is NOT attractive to her
AND that she is NOT wracked with guilt, or if she is, long ago that guilt was converted into anger at you...
AND
despite evidence that shows it's not working...
...you still tell yourself she needs to know you hurt, so she won't be fooled...

But Tad, she won't be fooled into thinking you are okay -you've made that so clear.

There is simply NO way YOUR W will believe you are "okay" with this divorce anytime soon...

You could be publicly engaged to a Catherine Zeta Jones lookalike, who earns high 6 figures, and be buying the tuxedo for your uber cool wedding the next morning...

and your w will STILL say "you have not moved on!...."

No...she won't think you are "okay" for a very long time. I think being sad about it is simply easier for you than learning to adapt and move on.

You are used to it. AND You are resisting change.

The resistance you've shown to this whole situation is, as Angel said, unusually severe. You hold on even when you know letting go has a better chance of getting her back.

We know you got dealt a bad hand, but geez, you can still play it well.

You have 11 days of holding your head up and not dragging your tail between your legs.

11 days of NOT givng a crap if she comes to the door of the car or stands in the doorframe, OR picks her nose or walks around naked...(who cares?)

You jam so much meaning into the meaninglessness of this...

please, please stop. No more wallowing.

In 2 weeks THIS PART will be over - and she can discover that divorcing you did not magically solve all of her problems.

It ended a marriage. Now begins a new life for both of you.

A part of you already knows some things are better without her than with her but you keep resisting that fact...why? Let yourself see the upsides that do exist, and they do!

THIS poker game is the one you're in, and THIS hand is the one you have to play.

So play it and get thru these next few weeks.

As for holidays...you'd be surprised at what you can create if you lift yourself out of the pits for a break from "Stuckville"

When h missed the bulk of that first sep Christmas, we/I planned on us doing as much normal stuff as possible fot the kids on Christmas day itself so the tree was done and the presents were opened in the morning, had a nice dinner etc. IF there were two homes in one area (as opposed to h visiting us for 4 days) then we'd have split the day somehow.

BUT THEN, once h left the day after, then for the first time ever, I arranged a nice short ski trip in a ski place 3 hours away (modest but with pretty mountains of snow and a hot tub and huge flat screen TV) for me and the kids right after Christmas for 3-4 days.

And we had a blast!!

So The next year when we were planning the holidays, and h was coming for a week, our youngest said "so we're going skiing again, like always, right"?

(See how fast Kids establish "traditions" Tad? In one year, I had made a new one, and it was a good one, and we've kept it now!...)

No matter what, why don't you create at least one new FUN tradition this year?

Instead of dreading it (& making a big fat self fulfilling prophesy of misery for the boys--=UN fun)

Embrace it and create a FUN cool 3 day mini adventure...heck, even one day of skiing or an overnight somewhere would be cool.

And No reminders of the ex, AND a fun tradition of "from this day forward" event...

The other comment you made that struck me was

It's a real loss and it's like they died to us. In a sense they have.
I honestly believe that it is worse.

The reason you think it's worse for her to leave you than to have died, is that you are letting your ego get in the way.

Of course rejection feels bad, I understand that.

But to say it's worse to be rejected by her than it is to have her permanently gone forever...hmmm, not healthy...

leaving aside the angry part of that...

do you see how much you are letting the rejection by this woman affect your whole world view? It's distorted thinking on YOUR end Tad....

Your wife isn't just rejecting you -she has damaged the r's she has with her only children, the most important r's in her life

so this cannot just be about YOU, so how can her rejecting you be worse than her death?

Moreover, she is behaving in a manner that can objectively be described as "disturbed" behavior --the wild texting wars, the "gf's" from 6th grade, the accusations and blame are so extreme...yet you listen.


In short, YOUR interpretation of her behavior and comments, so wrongly empowers them, and gives them so much Undeserved validity--that it

Makes me think you took some of her crazy pills.

Don't know what else to say.

Enough Tad. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and MOVE forward man.

This part will be over soon. THEN she can breathe and look around and discover the things her blinders have kept her from seeing.

Stop trying to stop her from seeing. SHE NEEDS TO SEE...

and so do you.

Sounds like a part of you is beginning to see that not all was well with her, and that's not a bad thing to see if it's the truth.

Keep your chin UP!

[Drew]

25yeatsmlc,

BRAVO!!

[Queen_of_Swords]

I am with Drew here.
What a great post 25yearsmlc.

Tad I want to validate you on your feeling that in a way the abandonment and rejection of our M is worse than a death.

A death is final, there is closure. There is no negotiation with the other.
There is no judgement upon you the survivor (usually) as a good or bad person.
There is sympathy and support for widowers and widows.
You MUST move forward, you don't have a choice to "stand" or not.

In both cases you must get your financial house in order and dispose of the other's things.
In both cases a legal process must be followed.

I get what you're saying Tad. ((Hugs))

In the meantime 25yearsmlc is right. You have 11 days to DB your a$$ off and it's not over until YOU say it's over.
I think your WAS is going to have a few surprises waiting at the end of the D.

[AntoniaB]

Tad for a long time I said that this was worth than the spouse dying...and I do know from all I've read and therapy that we initially have worse to deal with in a way because of the rejection. If someone dies, we get a lot of sympathy, there is a funeral, there are people who feel badly for us that we lost a spouse. There is like, a "ritual" to deal with it, a socially acceptable ritual.

What of a divorce? Nope. Divorce is so common, and so many people seem to want them anymore at the drop of a hat, that there is a sort of "oh well, yeah, your'e better off" attitude. I can't tell you how many women I've met, who have said when finding out I was divorced this year, "Congratulations." That's sick to me, it really is. My XH even told me that he hasn't been hanging out with as many men as he used to because they all wanted to "run me down" when they heard he was divorcing me. Now I doubt he's going around saying "I cheated on her." But he claims, and I actually believe him, that he has not spoken ill of me. I believe him because on one level, he's always been a bit scared of me and wanted my approval.

So with that kind of attitude going on in the world, it becomes tough for us who were rejected, because it's like other people want us to run around and say "Yeah! I'm free!"

And if we then say "but I got cheated on" or "I got dumped after 20 years", then that brings a feeling of shame or embarrassment with it. And what do we want? We want the ex to sweep in and take that shame away from us. So we make them FEEL bad about what they did. Surely their guilt over the way we feel will make them want to save us, right? Nope. It doesn't happen.

25 years is right--our ego is the problem when we say things like "this is worse than them dying." Yes, initially, or even for the first several months, maybe a year, it feels that way.

But I can tell you now that I have found myself saying lately with all honesty that I no longer think this is worse than XH dying. He still LIVES. Despite the fact that I never see him anymore and we communicate maybe once a month, and that may go away for good now that the legal stuff is all but done, do you know how happy I am to know that he is still ALIVE? It doesn't matter that he isn't with me. I love him and always will. Despite everything, I would not want his life cut short, before he has a chance to WAKE UP as I did. I am so much happier with myself now than I've ever been in all my 42 years. I want that chance for him. Yes he's still struggling and still the same person he was, and getting a new woman and divorcing me didn't change anything. But as long as he breathes, there is still a chance he can turn it all around. Maybe he never will. But maybe he WILL.

And by the day he does, I could be long gone, or with someone else, but HE believes he has one life on this earth and that's it, and if that's true, I hope he can achieve the peace and clarity I have achieved. Why? Because I unconditionally love him.

I think if you really do the work on yourself to heal, you'll understand this and you will be happy she's still around somewhere, even if she's not connected to you at all.

[AJM]

Um, it's easier because the WAS is no longer around to be dealt with when they die. They are no longer able to stick their finger in my eye.. The rest of it? Who gives a flying...f*** what others think? They can only relate to me based on their own experiences. I don't worry about their experiences. They are different and they haven't walked in my shoes.

Never did care what others thought for the most part. Oddly, I did immediately after the "awakening" (bomb was what she dropped; I began to awaken...I see that now).

But there is also the part where you have a long 20+ year habit. That doesn't go away fast. It takes time and more importantly effort.

You loved her. You were addicted to her. She's a nut. You aren't far behind that. This wasn't what you wanted.

But I notice you are starting to re-evaluate some things. You and I are pretty similar Tad in that respect Tad. Others are saying things to you about your past, or they ask questions that when you answer you listen to the words as they come from your mouth and you realize something wasn't right for longer than you admitted....

Be careful to not re-remember, but if you look at the facts what do you see? That's important for later my friend.

When you let yourself think of this situation, ask yourself to see the truth of the situation. To see the positives in your own life. To see things as others might see them if they didn't know you (not judgementally; objectively).

Maybe Tad. Just maybe this is the best thing to happen to you even if you cannot see that right now. Maybe not. But you'll have to see this from a positive light to know. To get there, you'll have to go back to seeing the positive things in your life to the exclusion of all else for a little while until you are able to see things as they are without judgement. Without only seeing what you want to see.

AJ