Yes things HAVE been better since that day. We are more affectionate in general, CJ's been more considerate, he left me a love note in the medicine cabinet today!
KAW, here's some of my journalling from that night:
Feb 22, 2004-02-22
It has been almost a year since the revelation that OW was still involved with CJ.
My spring break is coming to a close.
Emotions have been running high.
Instead of the tropical vacation, we planned and executed some home updates. It was fun picking out paint, flooring…hard work prepping, good team work all around.
Then mid week we both got sick...CJ worse than I.
Flash to Saturday…we’re both still sick, not quite as bad as before. I’m feeling bummed about my holiday being nearly over (had some school prep to do), bummed about the argument, (about me "mocking" him when he was sick) bummed about the anniversary looming, fresh emotions surfacing due to the book on healing from infidelity that I’d just picked up at Chapters.
So when CJ asked what was bothering me…I mentioned all of the above. Told him I thought the book would be helpful to him too, as it describes nearly perfectly the slippery slope he rode toward his A’s, as well as how to recover and have a better M.
I asked him a few ?’s from the book….such as “What did you say to yourself that made what you did OK?” and “Did you think of me or the ramifications at all?”
It was raw, but we were talking.
Then CJ (prehaps feeling under attack?) says he needs to know one thing…that he didn’t believe it BUT friend J had told him a twisted version of something that was said by me to her H on that fated night in Jan '02 when I drank wine and sambuca .
It was one of the many nights that CJ stayed home (talking to OW) while I went out on my own…vulnerable, hurting, wounded, NEEDING to feel attractive and worthwhile. Dangerous ground.
The conversation around the bar at the party turned to who of our group of friends would we pick as lovers if we had to…a hypothetical question that had come up over dinner with CJ and I months earlier while watching a sitcom with this premise….B (J's H) told me it was me for him, but that he figured all the girls would want R ( a younger better looking pal)…I said “No, B, I’d pick you”…
Now, gulp, this WAS the night this same "pal" gave me an extra long kiss goodnight. (Which CJ's known about for a year).
Were these comments and actions out of line? YES…Have they been repeated before or since then? NO…No NO!!! It was wrong... (Now THIS, I'm sure is something CJ wanted to hear at the time, but I was rather mad...)
What got me riled up was HOW CJ brought this up and queried it:
“Look me in the eye and tell me you didn’t tell B you want to sleep with him!”
What is this “look me in the eye” crap? It’s an interrogation, an assumption of guilt…
Made ME feel like I’D cheated!!! When at the time CJ WAS cheating and lying and treating me like SH!T!
So the argument escalated beyond all comprehension.
CJ spoke of his own “needs/concerns” being buried under the sins of his Affairs…What? For nearly a year it was ALL about HIS feelings, MY wrong-doings and dammit I CHANGED those things, made real progress.
(Note from the present: MUST follow up with CJ on what he meant by that comment...RED FLAG!!!)
He brought up again just how BAD I was to him before the A’s…very obvious that I have NOT been forgiven, nor does he feel that I acknowledge how nasty I could be. But I did and DO…not only by apologizing and empathizing, writing letters, but most importantly by NO LONGER following that path (to the best of my ability, and that's been pretty damned good!).
CJ said that he’d been working on my “needs”…hadn’t he? He'd kept his word to not cheat anymore, right? (my GOD that’s the rock bottom requirement for me being here and I told him so)…
...Hadn’t he been doing more around here? Well…yes…but it took phone calls from the government to get the taxes from 2000 almost sent out…he’d spent loong hours every day on his course from July to Dec…
(Note from the present...VALIDATE!!!!! )
So here I really blew it by minimizing our latest efforts, saying “so you painted a few walls”… : But that’s how I felt in that moment...the anger was THERE!!
I felt "What’s that compared to feeling LOVED by a LOVER???"
I told him that B’s kiss made my knees buckle and I hadn’t felt anything like that in a LONG LONG time.
cj was bawling at this point, saying he felt like a fool, that everything he’d done for the last year was pointless, that he and THIS felt JUST like he/IT did before, that I hadn’t changed but was just bottling up all this bitterness and rage… ...Yes we were both yelling by this time.
I was FLOORED …ONE argument, one “back slide” and he thinks it’s all over, all a sham?
And then I did it…. I yelled that if he really felt that way then “Why don’t we just get a DIVORCE!”
…He answered “why NOT!”…but then stumbled to the bathroom where he wretched and sobbed.
I was dressed to go out…we had been planning a dinner out…I ALMOST left in anger…but I couldn’t. I love him, and he was suffering because of my words.
I helped him up, sat on the couch and told him I should never have mentioned the “D” word. His breath caught in his throat.
The rest of the conversation is a bit sketchy.
I remember CJ telling me that when I spoke the D word, he felt like his insides were being ripped out. He told me that he is beyond sure that he wants to spend the rest of his life and grow old with me. His school, money, work, NONE of it mattered when he thought he might be losing me.
He laid his head on my lap (on his knees) and wept while I held him. I guess he finally “Got” an inkling of what he’d put me through. He apologized over and over.
He said he would do whatever it takes.
I told him that he’d promised me a year ago that he’d “work” on the attraction/intimacy thing…he admitted that it just hadn't been a top priority.
Even though it was and is my NUMBER ONE complaint in our M.
I mentioned the LL of gifts…of how he KNOWS this is a biggie for me, but hasn’t really come through there either. He felt that his letters to me (at Christmas) were “gifts of his heart” and should mean more than some bauble. (his words)
True, but as I told him, he’d given those same “gifts of the heart” to two other women. That some of his “love letters” to them contained lies (or so he said)…
...he’d written to me of how he was as “in love” with me now as he was when we got married…this one on my 10th anniversary card…right after OW #1 and while OW #2 was moving from friend to lover. (this I didn't say)
So, to me as comforting as words can be ACTIONS speak louder.
So he vowed to love me the way I deserve and want to be loved. He said he would do whatever it takes.
I wept later that night from the shere emotional overload, from empathy for what I'd caused CJ to feel, (I felt MISERABLE...not at all a happy revenge feeling friends)
and I wept with the fear that perhaps CJ might not be able to do what he said...
But I DO have faith...I DO DEFINITELY want to work on this. D'UH!!!
And as I said, things have been better...just feeling more connected. Getting things together in the house, fixing things up, planning projects. Touching more...
So all in all, KAW, I guess time will tell...but I'd have to say I wouldn't take back that argument (I WOULD, however do a few things differently! ).
Seems as though you both have some old and new wounds still to heal...dunno...but I'm thinking that exposing them to air (as you did) maybe will help the process (not suggesting making this a common occurence or anything...). Seems like you both know what's still sore? (His hurt over pre-bomb actions, your hurt over lack of PI, etc). Can this help? Seems like it can.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
So tough, so heart wrenching, so painful. I see it as a positive though. You guys are in that space where you are comfortable sharing these things. Although there are things that could have been done differently, a lot of good came out of that. A lot of understanding, and a lot of connection drawing closer. I'm guessing thats why you say you wouldn't take it back, why should you. You progressed.
Sometimes it is difficult and this is a hurdle in the journey to rebuilding intimacy. You are getting closer and growing. Sometimes those explosions are helpful to clear the other debris and actually start from where you are now. Like a forest fire brings new life to the land.
What a difficult time for both of you. But, on the other hand, what a step forward. Sam once said to me that she is so sorry for what she has done, understands the pain I felt, and that I once said something that made her feel worse that she ever could. I believe she is sorry, but I cannot believe she has the empathy to understand the hurt I felt and still feel. And I am certain I can say some things that will hurt her much more than she does now.
And I am starting to feel that I want to because I want her empathy. Your saying the D word hit him like a train. I want Sam to get hit as well. I think we need a cleansing king of arguement to move forward. I just can't do it because of the kids.
But, ya know, our MC once told us that couples who never argue always split up because of unmet needs never being talked (argued) about. Anger gets a bad rap, I think. Passion is a mighty thing. Of course, as Sage said, you don't want to do it all that often.
On another topic, you said in your arguement: I felt "What’s that compared to feeling LOVED by a LOVER???"
You have found the words for one of the things I feel. Thanks.
Keep your chin up. I am sure the arguement you had will do some good.
Sorry Shiny ... I don't mean to make the impression of prodding and then walked away. I could feel the hurt and raw emotion from your account of the evening, but I can't help but feel in the end it will help draw you two closer. Its been so long since I have said this (due to me forgetting about it myself and now you have helped me remember ... in one of my earlier threads...), but in order to advance from a seemingly stuck pattern, it needs to be started with an event that shakes / stirs things up a bit ... rock the boat. It does sound like you just went thru such an episode. The outcome can be quite powerful.
Hope you are still doing well? Have you been able to persue some of those follow-up talks in a quieter, calmer, gentler way? Is sounds like the both of you have been bottling up some resentment. One way that helps breakdown the build up is to mention frequently all the little things you catch him doing right. It may seem painfully obvious, so they are not worth mentioning, but taking the effort shows him you do care enough about him to recognize them. It also becomes a means to open up a venue to share more about how each is feeling about the other and even if they don't (as in the case of CAW), your mentioning of notice their actions does shift their demeanor towards where they act more comfortable being around you, which can lead to other positive feeling which they may be more apt to express in some form.
Shiny, you thru another teaser out there too, in that you would have like to handle it a bit differently. What would you have done differently? All I seem to be doing lately is creating smoke when pondering my sitch for I seem to be stuck for quite a while. ... so I'm quite interest in hearing about the effects of rocking the boat.
Strangely, the urge to come here to the bb has ebbed considerably, hence my increasing absenses.
I attribute this to the change in the spirit of the R between CJ and I since our recent blow out.
We seem much more connected, there's a greater sense of "us", which is very comforting. It's little things...more touching of the fingers, more cuddling in bed, more joint outings (mostly the house stuff...fun!), more consideration, small acts of kindness.
CJ got a cryptic message from our Doc's assistant....his blood tests were all "fine"....Which is great for the tests for thyroid and diabetes but I'm not sure where that leaves us with the low testosterone explanation for his sex drive/performance issues.
The first step will be getting the actual numbers I suppose. But neither of us has mentioned it (we both heard the message when she left it).
Tonight we are going to play darts at B and J's place. First time in months. I noticed CJ being a tad quiet today, so I took the initiative to tell him a few things.
I prefaced this by saying that I MIGHT be being over sensitive but I wanted him to know that I KNOW that what happened with B that night in Jan 2002 was over the line, wrong, inappropriate AND unacceptable. That NOTHING like it has happened since or before, that things were/are a little awkward with B due to it, discomfort on both ends.
CJ listened, and thanked me. I think it was a good call.
Would we be at this "next level" if we hadn't had that argument? If I hadn't lost it and yelled "Divorce!"?
Sad to say, I doubt it.
I'm also chagrined to admit that today's "talk" was the first addressing of CJ's "issues" since that blow out.
Things have been going so well...it's almost scary to go there right now. Any thoughts on that, folks?
I'm also very aware that CJ's increased effort might be in part based on fear ...I'm not sure how I feel about that ...I do know that I must continue to validate and reinforce these large and small efforts, and how they are contributing to my feelings of contentment and optimism.
How HAVE I been doing so? By initiating more affection...running my fingernails through his hair as I pass his chair...by initiating kisses...with gentle, affectionate teasingBy expressing my appreciation of all stuff he's doing:
Since the spring break painting...he also picked up and hung our new (huge) mirror, Set up our three new awesome lamps, fixed the lock function on the bathroom door, painted more walls in the kitchen...the birds in the yard are being well fed... he built an extension onto my desk in the office so now HE has a perfect work space for his laptop!
Finally the poor guy doesn't have to work on the couch, watch TV on the couch and fall asleep on the couch...that was one of his legitimate gripes. (Mind you the living room is looking so nice it beats the bedroom hands down!)
Isn't it rather cool that we can (and have) sat side by side on our computers?
Initially he had the diningroom chair that was hanging around the office in his workspace...but during my "laps" while he was out the next day, I realized that I had a nice rolling office chair at the diningroom table (where I do some school work and eat lunch).
I switched them around...CJ was pleasantly surprised, hadn't mentioned that chair as he thought I "needed it" to do my work. Not so, it only went there because it didn't fit the office desk for me, and we bought a new one.
I've also just been in good spirits...I'm doing chores like, picking up stuff from Walmart, dusting and vacuuming, and tidying clearly because I WANT to (it's looking so much nicer around here I have more motivation for clearing away the clutter ).
This is MUCH different than that moaning, huffing, sometimes resentful, exhausted martyr who was dragging around the vaccuum last fall when CJ was focussed on his school work.
I asked about his school work yesterday and he said he's "plodding along" with it...he did apply for and had his first interview for a position working on training people to use e-commerce, e-learning...(I'm really amiss here as I did NOT read the position information... ).
As for those "bloody taxes" I've been bitching and moaning about for...four years?...we're just waiting on the check...and folks, it's going to amount to more than my take home pay for the entire last year!!!!
When CJ woke me up to tell me (he'd gotten a call from the tax dude) I gave him a huge hug and kiss and called him "My rich man! ".... and mentioned the comparison to my wages...I think this winfall will help with his feeings of "not contributing financially".
We're planning a NICE dinner out (to our former favourite restaurant, back in the expense account days...loved those out of town business guests ) when the check actually arrives.
As for my 2003 taxes, I'm getting back a whole $6.43 ...could be worse, I could have had to cut THEM a cheque for that amount!
Okay, that's about all I can think of for now. Interesting how it's all rather circular, eh?
Take good care all
Shiny
P.S. Anyone heard from Pam?
P.P.S. God bless anyone who read this entire Novela...sorry!
I don't get around the bb much anymore. I've been busy with college and a "new guy" in my life. Things are going well for me. Got my D papers yesterday, so I am officially a "free agent". It was tough, but I'm doing okay. I know you don't get around the bb much either, so thought I'd give you the quick run down on me.
Anyway, I saw that you posted, and I wanted to stop in and say hello. I like the update. You sound good.
Take care of yourself!
Love you! MAL
Me 47 Ex H 46 Bomb 9/02 D final 3/04 Ex H now married to OW
------------ This is surviving. There is no such thing as a normal life, there's just life. So get on with it and enjoy it!
I wish D and I had gotten to the point to try to rebuild, but it is so awesome to read about you, Sage, Tal and some of the others here that are really putting it back together.
My thread is one started by Zoo this time if you want to catch up. I filed for a continuance so no court Monday morning. Haven't spoken to D since so no idea if he is upset or not.
Pam
"We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us"
Quote: Would we be at this "next level" if we hadn't had that argument? If I hadn't lost it and yelled "Divorce!"?
Sad to say, I doubt it.
Very interesting. I have thought about this as well. When I had an "emotional breakdown" a little stern in replying "I won't stand in your way of getting this expletive divorce if you want it so badly" that seemed to shake her up a bit and she has been a little more accepting of the thought of spending more time with me (I know this sounds like a teeny tiny baby step and is pathetic but I'll take what I can get now). This was in the context of a big R talk where we were both crying heavily before that statement. Statement came out when she kept on saying she wanted this D and no changing her mind and I was trying to validate and understand and she kept saying the same thing and we were at a stalemate.
Confusing thing for me and question for you is she complains I was not emotionally available and cold and distant, disrespectufl of her in front of friends, and to a lesser extent angry at times. So I can't figure out if this is more of the same behavior for me or is it she realized she was being unreasonable at the time when I reacted with my comment? I'm gathering this is how you feel it benefited you to move on?
I guess I won't be doing that often, but sometimes it does have to happen to break a stalemate?
Quote: I'm also chagrined to admit that today's "talk" was the first addressing of CJ's "issues" since that blow out.
Things have been going so well...it's almost scary to go there right now. Any thoughts on that, folks?
My sense from my WAW is that they are afraid to talk about it because of many reasons. I have been trying just to make her feel comfortable and safe by my RELAXED and COMFORTING vibe, body language, my tone of voice, etc. Real mild, but I think it might be working.
I would not expect my WAW to come out and talk about it until she feels much safer, mostly through actions she would see and percieve me doing. I think you did great with your comment, short, concise, and communicative, and allowed both of you to focus on the future. Not the pain of the past. GREAT JOB! Leave it at that, and live life, not just talk about it. Ironic, I think I like to talk and overanlyze our R more than WAW does, is this gender role reversal?
.
(Which CJ's known about for a year).
…ONE argument, one “back slide” and he thinks it’s all over, all a sham? 
".... and mentioned the comparison to my wages...I think this winfall will help with his feeings of "not contributing financially". 
