I'm going to risk repeating myself here b/c I asked some questions I don't think you answered before.
If you did answer them, I'm sorry I missed them (but then, geez, this thread is getting long!)
It most certainly is and its possible I missed your questions or just tried to answer everything at once.
You lost a lot of weight recently and your w said something about whether there was a reason/OW causing it. You said no.
So, the question is, Was your obesity a turn off for her?
IF SO, has your weight loss been turning things around at all - or do you know?
it's obvious she has noticed, which is NICE...
I actually don't know the answer to your question. My weight 14 years ago was roughly where I am today and I currently weigh in at 185 at just under 6 feet tall. I have a very nice linen jacket that I kept in the back of my closet that I now fit back into.
I do remember somewhere in the early 1998 timeframe thinking that the things I did do to remain physically fit and physically attractive seemed for naught. "Why bother?" was a question I asked myself if the physical aspects were not to be appreciated.
I acknowledge that part of the weight gain was part of a pity party . I hit my peak weight in late 2007 before I finally started to do something about it in early 2008. Most of my weight loss occurred when I stopped focusing on the weight and started focusing on some other aspect of physical activity and fitness.
The greatest weight loss came in 2010 when I dropped from 232 down to ~192-195 pounds.
Also, the comment she made about missing the intimacy is telling and positive.
But your vagueness about the 11/97 incident and that being the last time you two ML
leaves me unable to asses much beyond that.
Actually, the last time we made love was April 6, 1997. It was a sunny spring Sunday morning and I had gotten up to take our two dogs out for a morning walk and to fix coffee. When I came back to the house, I poured us two cups of coffee, got undressed, and came back to bed. We called me the "naked but(t)ler." After laying bed together for a few minutes, she crawled on top of me to present her body to me.
We made love for about two hours until about 1130AM. At somewhere around noon we disentangled, got into the shower together to get cleaned up and I left her to finish her shower while I went downstairs to fix breakfast.
What is memorable about this is that when I went out to walk the dogs or even came back to bed, I had no idea that we'd be spending the next couple of hours making love much less that she'd be the one to initiate so directly.
Between April and November, like so many times before, there were numerous attempts on my part to get her interested. She would either just push me away or tell me that she didn't feel like it. On November 11th I kept coming back even though she'd push me away and that's when the big "NO MEANS NO!blow-up occurred.
Same goes for "the agreement/promise" you made --was it never to ever express your desire or pressure her??
Am I to assume that you think it means you are NEVER going to pursue her again?
We know it by it's shorthand: yes/no/or counteroffer. The pre-existing situation was that after she had told me no, she had also withdrawn permission for me to be sexual with her unless and until "we work this out." Trying to navigate or negotiate a possible path was not something that I pr we tried to do immediately. It took a couple of weeks of cooling off before we could really approach this.
The promise is to abide by the agreement and the rules were relatively simple. "Yes" meant you accepted what the other offered and in fact were willing to build upon until some boundary or limit was reached. And while there were some preexisting boundaries that were reaffirmed (e.g., I was allowed no third party sexual affairs as that is an instant deal-breaker), it was also recognized that we could not come to these discussions with an unaccepatable compromise because we might just get it.
A "No" closed the discussion on some point or issue and only the person that issued the "no" had the authority to reopen it for reconsideration. For example, the third party example above. My wife is quite clear about that and reaffirmed that in the context of accusing me of "meeting someone else." The consequence of entry a "no" too early or without due consideration is that you might close off another path that might be worth exploring.
And that is where the counteroffer can be valuable. For example, I might (and did) offer that to get out of whatever rut we were in that for every day for a month we engage in sex (it could be lovemaking) but no matter what we'd engage each other in sex. At the end of the month we'd consider whether to 'renew" the contract or establish another one. We could have sex more often but that established a minimum. A counteroffer could be as simple as "I'd like to think about that."
This was not an everyday discussion, as we'd check-in on what each other was thinking about on about a every week or couple of week basis with more serious and indepth discussions on a 4-6 week cycle. All the while, nothing overtly sexual because I still did not have permission to go there...something that was always present in our discussions.
Finally, in April 1998 and more than a year since we'd last made love, when I wanted some hope that we'd eventually reach some agreement on our sex lives together rather thsn letting them slip away, I had placed a number of ideas and alternatives out there for her to consider (I was frustrated that she never once put an alternative out there for me to consider even though I asked more than once) and I wanted to know if any of those or anything else she had thought about and come up with were worth pursuing. And that is when she told me that she was not willing to commit to any sexual intimacy with me at any level or any frequency. No meant no, not yes, not maybe,
We had other things to discuss and we did, but the sexual door and discussions had been closed by her. Then her mother's health declined and there were a whole host of other new issues to deal with...which we did. But sex/making love was no longer part of the relationship. And when my wife had a radical hysterectomy in the summer of 1999, I didn't know how or if that would change anything.
In the last year as this has been discussed (only occasionally) she didn't think that what she "agreed to" was so absolute AND she didn't think I'd keep my promise and honor our agreement (which tells me that she knew that she had ended our sex life and she was hoping, after she had so strongly pushed me that words matter...no means no, that she thought I'd just blow that off.
And as I have more recently pointed out, she took away permission to be sexual with her, which is her choice, and she has never given that back. As I told her, until she grants me that permission, it woud still be considered rape or attempted rape (and I described just in those terms to indicate that I take this very, very seriously). Frankly, I'm not quite ready to ask her if she is ever going to give me permissions again since I never expected her to close the door on sex in the first place.
A lot of women want or expect pursuit. We all want to feel desired.
That can be pursued in different ways and I've avoided that in ways that might be seen as being sexual. I used to give her really nice lingerie from time to time. We're not talking that cheesy looking stuff, we are talking about functional and yet very sexy/attractive lingerie...the sort of thing that she didn't tell me "go get this for me." The sort of choices that would and did impress the women in the Neiman-Marcus lingerie department.
(BUT if she's the w who said "I SAID NO!" - then never mind....I'm not going to suggest doing what we know won't work AND- IF it has has been tried recently)
Here's a sitch I know of that MIGHT relate to yours or some other ones around.
I'd love your take on it, okay? And like I said, it MIGHT relate to yours but hey, it might not.
My neighbors down the street have been married about 20 years. I like them both a lot. Separately, they are funny, well educated and well informed, great hosts, friendly, etc. they have Two kids they raised well and the kids are clearly their priorities.
Separately, they're among our closest friends. Together, there's always an undertone of tension my h and I are aware of. My older kids have noticed it too...
And the thing is, I happen to know that they have NO sex life at all. And I KNOW that's a problem on both sides (or it was once upon a time.) Their d17 asked about 3 years ago if she and her h "even love each other", which broke my friend's heart. But there is still zero physical affection. I don't think I've even seen them hug or hold hands in 7 years.
Originally the no sex was the h's choice b/c his w gained too much weight. He no longer found her attractive, and that came out in mc, that he was "repulsed" by her weight gain. This devestated w.
FYI--The wife began the m as a real looker. She was also a runner, like 5k several times a week. She got injured (and has since recovered) but truly Her looks have changed a lot-dramatically. It's almost like the h feels ripped off...?
The weight has somehow changed the whole shape of her face. I literally did not recognize photos of her from just 9 years ago AT ALL. I might have thought it was a sister 20 years younger...
When they married, HE had married Up, in terms of looks.
Today, she's morbidly obese. He's pleasant looking and witty and successful. Her weight IS an issue for him.
and yet she won't lose the weight. It's as if she feels he is wrong to be "conditional" in his love, whereas he seems to feel that he didn't bargain for her to look like this.
They both seem to feel wronged by the other (as in, "if HE/SHE only loved me enough, HE/SHE would do what I want"--
she feels he'd ml to her anyhow, and he feels she'd try to be attractive for him)
It's a Mexican stand off in a way. I think she thinks she'd lose weight IF they had a sex life and she would rather go without it and make him beg, before she'd change...
only she didn't bargain for how long he's been holding out. Him having an affair has crossed my mind but he's a deacon at the church and strikes me more as a guy who'll just leave when the kids are gone and not have an affair til then. But who knows?
FYI she is healthy now so there's no reason for her not to get fit or at least lose SOME of the weight.
Also, her clothing---She projects no sexuality at all. It's like she's "Aunt B" from Mayberry RFD."
SHE is deeply wounded and furious by his rejection and she remembers every comment he ever made about her weight.
HE is probably very lonely, (both are I'm sure) and there is tension when they are together.
They won't divorce til the kids are out of the house. Or never? And these are GOOD PEOPLE....but they are so stuck!!
Sometimes I think the h his biding his time (he made a remark once that I THOUGHT was referring to when the kids leave)
and other days I think,
"wow, they both defaulted to their need to be right. HE thinks she does not deserve his affection & he sure won't give it til she does--and since she's been so bitchy now for awhile, it will take more than weight loss probably....
But of course he's not attracted to her. [i]Weight gain, plus resentment is NOT attractive.[/i]
OTOH, you'd think he could "suffer" thru it now and then and ML to his sex starved wife.
She really misses the intimacy and the fact that her kids are now in high school and moving out soon terrifies her.
She gave up her career to be a 1950s sahm (her h also wanted that) and this is SO NOT what she expected.
I think weight is a big issue for spouses.
Living in Southern California, where weight is lower in general, it seems as if Men are more "allowed" to reject their w's if we don't stay in shape and or if they allow themselves to age.
But that does not mean women don't find obesity to be a turn off as well. And there are many of us who will hesitate to admit that a chubby guy is a turn off. Feels superficial.
but is it?
In a woman's eyes, having children is a better excuse for not dropping those last 10 lbs, than just liking beer is. There is a sort of "Surrendering" that goes on when someone just does not care how they look and a lot of spouses feel neglected when their partner doesn't take care of how they look.
Thing is, a lot of MEN seem to think it doesn't apply to THEM...esp if they earn enough money or have power, some feel they can let themselves go. Some of them do.
All I am saying is, without more info contradicting this,
I suggest you NOT gloss over the weight issue. It is a noticeable one, and your w commented on it.
A couple of different things. I will hold my wife's hand in the car or when walking together. She holds my arm sometimes when we are walking together down a street. I;ll pkace my hand on her thigh or knee sometimes when we are riding in the car. I kiss her goodbye in the morning (I leave earlier than she does most days) and we'll hug and kiss goodbye when she leaves before me. So there is and has been some level of touch even though I became afraid of doing even that in 1998 for a little while.
Even when she says goodnight to me, she come over and touch my hand as we have a little goodbye hand-thing that we do.
So there is some outward affectionate touch between us whether there is anyone around or not. Our kids no longer in the house and haven't been for quite some time.
But I no longer sleep with her and I haven't since sometime in 2004 or 2005.
My wife has her own weight and associated health issues. And I'm certain that if we ever do reestablish some level of sex life that there are some things which she will be unable to do. I have never made her weight gain an issue (and she weighs less than her peak as well)
In contrast to what you describe as a situation you are aware of, my wife dresses well. But the "Ferrari" is no longer that hot sporty model from 25 years ago and I don't necessarily expect that she'd remain that throughout her life
I don't discount the weight issue though I've done it for me, not for anyone else (call me selfish if you like). And the fact that I've brought it down this far is something I'm pleased with. I also find myself noticing the weight of others rather than ignoring it or just overlooking it. I am happy to share what I've done for those who are interested but don't get on a soapbox and preach to others.
One has to be careful with the "if you love me, then....
And you never explained her original issue with it or the big blow out in 97.
If I'm wrong, so be it. I lack sufficient data to assess.
But if you lost 60lbs and she commented on it in any way, I would pay attention to that.
I think it's great you are willing to look at all this.
((( )))
Hope this clarifies
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
