Here here Shiny! Listen to her Pam...in no way do the mistakes you made in your first marriage have to be payed for in your second. I am glad that you forgave yourself hon but please...never,ever think that you DESERVED to have D behave the way he has becasue of that!! {{{{pam}}}}
You know you reminded me of something though. My xh cursed me when he realised I was leaving for real. He said that he hoped I would NEVER find happiness, that I didn't deserve it. When he found out that I was going to live with my current H (he had tried to make sure THAT would never happen...another long story ) he cursed me again...he told me that GOD found me wanting and had judged me accordingly , as such I would not only never know true happiness but my life would be made miserable and all the pain I had caused him would be returned back to me a hundredfold. Do you know that that is the first thing that popped into my head when H dropped the first little bomb on me. I even later sarcastically threw that at H...I told him that it must make him feel "just ducky to know that you are fulfilling L's curse in such a grand fashion". Needless to say, h didn't appreciate that too much.
Shiny, I wish i could offer more towards helping Cj with his self-forgiveness. I know H struggled with that aspect some himself even though his admittance of it was somewhat grudging. I envy you your love letter from CJ too...I know my H would never write something like that to me. I feel lucky that he sends me the little beating heart smiley on IM which is as close to a love letter I get...lol. Actually that isn't exactly true...I do have the one and only love-letterish type of letter H has ever sent me filed away.
I'm sorry ya'all had an argument. I admire the way you put it to rest though. H and I are trying to do something similar...sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't
Hugz, Zoo
"If patience is worth anything, it must endure to the end of time. And a living faith will last in the midst of the blackest storm."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Hey people!!!! I just thought to look and it's my actual 1 Year BB anniversary today!! (well technically yesterday as it's 2 a.m.)!!
Oh you guys! I had the DR book, but I was sooooo close to issuing CJ an ultimatum at this time last year.
I thought he'd ended it with OW on Dec 2...I was impatient for SOME signs of coming around on his part (OMG people less than a MONTH...it's laughable looking back on it, but at the time it seemed interminable!).
Reading and getting some posts on the bb cooled my heals and set me off in the right direction!
I didn't know, a year ago, if CJ was coming to the New Year's party or not...He decided not to, at the last moment, so I went by myself and had a GREAT time too!
He was sitting here, I imagine talking to or e-mailing OW.
Flash forward 365 days...we've known for two weeks where we're going...a house party with many of our pals...the meatballs are made, maybe a shirt to iron before we head out (CJ's the one who's best at that task...15 years of shirts and ties to work will do that to a guy!).
It's just truly amazing, I am SO incredibly grateful for this bb, for Michelle's book, and for all of the incredible people I've gotten to know this year.
Hi Shiney! Congrats on the great plans to break in the New Year! Isn't it amazing to look back on how things were and how HOPELESS they seemed?
Now look at you! You are hope for so many here.
I've truthfully not read back too far on your thread, but I will because I could really use some success stories to keep me hanging in there, and also to maybe glean some idea's of what NOT to do.
Things are not very clear to me. I seem to bounce around doing things that work for awhile, then to have H distance and have to try something else.
The guilt thing made me think.
People on here talk about how guilty their WAS feels, or supposedly feels. Maybe some of them even convey that to their S.
In my opinion, I think guilt is better than indifference. By that I mean seemingly not feeling much of anything about what the WAS did and how it effected us and our family.
I guess I'm speaking of my own sitch where my H does not appear to feel guilty. I'm not sure if he's that way from living in denial about his actions or he's just not totally out of the fog yet.
Either way, when they realize the impact of what they've done they are bound to feel guilt.
I think it's a step in the right direction, but not one they should get stuck in.
As I've said before, I was a WAS 12 yrs ago. I know guilt. The hardest thing after you betray someone is to forgive yourself, BUT.... you have to get past the denial.
Until I really woke up and realized I wanted my M and that I had made a HUGE mistake, I pretty much felt justified because of all the same reasons these WAS give us.
I didn't feel loved or wanted, I was no longer "in love," things have been bad for a LONG time, ect.
I was stuck in guilt for quite awhile and finally figured out it was self defeating and I asked God and my H for forgivness.
I do wonder if my H felt justified in his A since he'd been through it with me. He say's no, but I wonder if he ever truly forgave me. He's not one to let go of things.
Maybe he thinks now we're even. I don't know. I DO know my A lasted only 2 months and I broke it off and the OM died, so he was no longer a threat.
My H had a very long term A and then continued to talk to her after we were back together, AND....she's alive. The closure for me has to come from the strength of our R.
Since he runs hot and cold, I'm pretty insecure about it most of the time. I'm trying to let go of alot of that insecurity because THAT is self defeating as well. Definately hard to do, but not impossible.
If your H is in the guilt stage more than likey he will move through it eventually, but do you see how they HAVE to feel that in the process of them truly coming out of the fog? Does this make any sense?? Rachael
I actually have forgiven myself, not forgotten, but I no longer feel the horrible sense of guilt and yes what I have gone through has made a difference, but I think with the self introspection and working on myself I could have forgiven myself without going through all of this mess.
Pam
"We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us"
Hi there Shiny, Last nite I printed off your new post to read overnite. So this morning I was ready to post only to see the size of your thread had doubled! ... well I after some more reading, what I hasd to start off with still holds ...
Very appropriate to call you're thread ... Still Shining ... and ever brighter might I add!
Luv the fact CJ wrote that letter as a Christmas gift and my take is your acceptance of that letter as a true gift in your eyes will help CJ in rebuilding how he sees himself. I look at the letter as being as an admittance of how he casuse you so much hurt and pain and as formal request for forgiveness from you for what he has done ... for he will not be able to forgive himself until he know you have forgiven him ... if Shiny called me a prick, I still must be one ... so how can she forgive me or I forgive myself now?
... and I can see how this all underlies beneath the intimacy issues with CJ too. How can he be comfortable being close to you in that way, when he feels like a "prick" for the hurt he has caused? He doesn't feel he is deserving of your love.
... but the best part is that he is facing his guilt, so now he can work past it. Like Rach said about Adrian, I believe CAW has yet to face any remorse for her actions. Yea, sometimes she scratches the surface like a couple of weeks ago when she simply stated, "I know I'm a pain. Thank you for loving me.", but she will need to dwelve much deeper to reach where CJ is at.
... and in order to have the WAS 100% emotionally recomitted to R, they need to process that guilt to the point where they just don't bury it, but can live with it.
His lack of self-worth was also behind his devotion to his on-line courses as well, and thereby putting more the focus on working on him before working at the emotional bonds towards you. Altho there were some rough spots your overall support and encouragement won over how you preceive him as a better person and he no longer feels he has to rely only on himself to prove he can be a better person. By showing that unconditional love to him every day, you are telling him you forgive him every one of those days and that he does deserve it ... as well as you too. So no more mentioning of bastards, SOB's or pricks (unless you're just plain talking dirty ... if you're into that sort of thing?!) Place more determination into giving unconditional love by being supportive, encouraging and by validating to show your forgiveness of him and hopefully will help in his healing from his guilt to where he starts putting more of his focus on you as a couple rather than himself. It seems like you are already heading in that direction. Less time being spent on the computer, etc... bringing into more moderation the attention he was focusing on himself and now there is more time being spent together.
Sorry if this started to become disjoint towards the end. Took longer than I expected and not getting interfered with. So I'll go for now...with wishing that the new year will bring even more moderation to the extremes you found yourself dealing with in 2003.
'til later, KAW
P.S. ... and I do appreciate your plea for me to start a new thread, but I've come to believe the only thing that will help me conquer my demons is time! Time in the measure of months to a year to see if the cycles are truely being broken so I can receive the true answer to the question titled in my last thread. No worries tho ... I'm very OK with waiting and I don't know what useful purpose filling a thread in the meantime would be ... it would be more of the same as the last three threads . I pretty much feel like Andy does in that there isn't much else to do now but wait it out ... but I promise as soon as I see signs that the cycle is broken for good! ... you folks here will be the first to know.
Wow, some really great posts here people! Thank you!!
It's really helpful to hear from those of you who've been on the other side of this, how you dealt with it.
And for those of you whose S's don't seem remorseful...it's probably denial or rationaliztion or one of those other ego defenses I spoke of earlier...it's SO painful to face these things in the cold light of day and take responsibility...sometimes the person just can't handle it yet...CJ was there for quite a while...actinge MEANER than he ever had before, even!
KAW, I think you're right about my forgiveness being vital to CJ's...but from his statements, he doesn't feel that way at all!
And as for CJ's easing off the computer...I'd LIKE to think it was to have a better balance with US...but it occurred right about when he found out he didn't get the job he had so hoped for. And he'd gotten a few extensions on the school work. Seems to me he just lost some of his drive for it...Although I THINK his actual course work might be finished...the applied project to go.
You know, KAW I wondered about the impact of this on the intimacy thing...not sure but it be playing a role.
Quote: His lack of self-worth was also behind his devotion to his on-line courses as well, and thereby putting more the focus on working on him before working at the emotional bonds towards you.
Gee and I took it as drive and perhaps selfishness...good POV, KAW.
Quote: By showing that unconditional love to him every day, you are telling him you forgive him every one of those days and that he does deserve it ... as well as you too. So no more mentioning of bastards, SOB's or pricks (unless you're just plain talking dirty ... if you're into that sort of thing?!)
Ha ha! I love it! "Spank me you SOB! "
Actually, KAW I almost think it was providence that brought that word to my lips that night. CJ and I are NOT ones to name call (if you don't count my one charge of calling him an idiot ).
Well I wish I felt better physically today...now it seems my gastro system (lower) is acting up...I know it's been a bad night when I wake up with my brow furrows etched deeply between my brows.
A good night's sleep generally fades those away.
But it's better right now, so I'll forge ahead and I'm sure we'll have a grand time.
Hope the New Year brings us ALL closer to our goals!
Unfortunately the saga of shiny's sleep cycle continues...let's see, got to sleep around 9:00 a.m. and got up about two hours ago at 4 p.m....
I'm just hoping for a sleep time before 4 a.m. tonight and a wake up by noon! OY!
We had fun at the party last night.
Guess what I did while getting ready? No, nothing like THAT!
I was putting on my jewellery and I noticed that my amber and silver ring looked better on my right hand where I was wearing my new bracelet. So I just popped my 10-year anniversary sapphire ring onto my left middle finger which is where I always wore it.
I think I vowed on this very bb that I would NEVER wear that ring again as is was bought DURING W's second A and it felt tainted to me.
Well last night it just looked like a nice ring and I wore it. CJ and I held hands a few times, I wonder if he noticed?
We shared our New Year's kiss and hug...I told him HOW much better this was than last year!
) he cursed me again...he told me that GOD found me wanting and had judged me accordingly , as such I would not only never know true happiness but my life would be made miserable and all the pain I had caused him would be returned back to me a hundredfold. Do you know that that is the first thing that popped into my head when H dropped the first little bomb on me. I even later sarcastically threw that at H...I told him that it must make him feel "just ducky to know that you are fulfilling L's curse in such a grand fashion". Needless to say, h didn't appreciate that too much.
... well I after some more reading, what I hasd to start off with still holds ...
... and ever brighter might I add! 
Place more determination into giving unconditional love by being supportive, encouraging and by validating to show your forgiveness of him and hopefully will help in his healing from his guilt to where he starts putting more of his focus on you as a couple rather than himself. It seems like you are already heading in that direction. Less time being spent on the computer, etc... bringing into more moderation the attention he was focusing on himself and now there is more time being spent together. 
).