Oh, wait, only us Canuks and the Brits will get that one!
Thought it was appropo to start a new thread before the old one locks out.
Also today was a pretty eventful one!
Not sure I'll get all the details in as it's 2:45 a.m.
Well CJ surprised me with his gift choices this year...an electric toothbrush and waterpick flosser (I'm a bit fanatical about my teeth), a vibrating bath pillow (made me want to pee! ) an awesome new printer with scanner and photocopy abilities (no DVD player!)....and, get this one Pam...a Foot Massager!!! ...No Kidding! And he hasn't been on the bb since July!
The absolute best however was the letter he wrote to me. Unsolicited.
Here's the gist:
He's 100% certain he loves me...he loved me even last year when he SAID he did not!! ...He THOUGHT he loved OW, and a lot of other things that turned out to be false.
He has NOT been in contact with her since Feb, he does NOT misse her...she was a fantasy and an escape...not reality.
He apologized again, said he sees us together for the long haul, that nothing and no one can come between us.
He ended the letter with a list of things he loves about me... ...suggested we take a ballroom dancing course (if me feet can take it)...he looked into it, starts jan 12th! This is something I'd always wanted to do.
He ended with "I love you, S, and I always will".
We had a lovely dinner at my folks with my my sibs, their kids and grandkid...
Then, on the ride home, it all went to hell in a hand basket.
I was driving as CJ had had a few snorts with Dad. On the way CJ tells me about an interaction he had with J (the friend I had a screaming match with on the phone about her controllingness) at the party last night.
J had walked up to CJ and said: "All’s forgiven!"…so CJ said ‘What do you mean?’ and J repeated ‘All’s forgiven!’ ….and CJ said “What do you mean J?’”
Just the way he said this, the tone, something, I blurted out that he sounded like a prick there. Of course he knew J was referring to our phone call blow-out and the subsequent e-mail…but he DID have a point in that J wasn’t being clear, and what did she have to forgive HIM for anyway?
But it seemed to me like in the car, CJ just wasn’t hearing me… Eventually I was actually agreeing with him, she deserved as much….etc…but he just fixated on me calling him a “prick”…and since I mentioned I could smell the booze on his breath…he became “a drunk” too!
The argument continued at home…much to my amazement as it seemed to me, and I said so, that this was the stupidest argument we’d ever had! I even shouted “Yeah, I’m ready to pick J over you!” He felt I was defending, her, that I should be supporting him… he was SO emotional about this.
He said “I didn’t call you a b!tch when you were in that phone call with J!” I said “No, but you could have ‘cause I really let her have it!…Same thing, she had it coming.”
Something was up here folks, not right, out of proportion.
I was yelling, he was yelling, in tears (at the outrage of me calling him a prick and not supporting him?) and I slipped….I threw IT in his face.
I said that He had indeed called ME worse than b!tch or prick…how about “cheater?” Referring to the infamous e-mail he fabricated for OW about my alleged “affairs”.
CJ said that this would forever be held over his head, and I angry, said he’d hold this “prick” word over MY head till the end of time. (Like the one time I called him an idiot )
It was just surreal. CJ was silent, and in tears as we sat in the back room. I said that I didn’t want our Christmas to end this way. I asked what I could do to make it better…I apologized for saying he sounded like a prick, I just got that sense when he told the story the first time (he repeated it all the way home).
Tears fell down his cheeks in a slow trickle as he said, gazing at the wall…"But I have been a prick… I HAVE been a prick."
I said, “I know…I’ve been on the receiving end of some of that but I could as easily say that I have been a bitch, a cold bitch, a mean bitch, a loud bitch, a sarcastic bitch…
I was hoping this might somehow ease this self torment he’d plummeted into…I mean if we’re going to dig up the past, let’s not forget MY little foibles!
I followed him into the living room and sat with him on the couch. He was silent, far away, in self-recrimination mode. I put his legs up over my lap and asked him how far along he was with his self forgiveness…like a %…..Silence. Minutes go by....
I ask him how far along he thinks I am? …..Silence …..I ask him if he does or doesn’t want to talk, or do the math thing. Silence. No eye contact the entire time,
Then for the first time, for a SECOND, his silence, no eye contact and lack of responses through me back to Aug 22 2002, and bomb #1…the exact same look, the same silence and I said…”Now this JUST hit me, but when you said that you “have been a prick”…you WERE talking in the distant past tense right”…
As what if he meant that he was STILL hiding something from me? Man for a second my stomach dropped! He looked at me with such pain and said “Even after that letter I wrote you this morning?”….I just shrugged and told him it was just a flashback due to his non-responsess…did he want me to leave him alone?….Silence….
Finally I ask him if his level of self forgiveness is above or below 50%…he snorted wetly and said “Way below”. NOT GOOD!!!
I looked at him (he was not facing me this entire time) and said “Would it help you to know that my % is above 50%…60%…70%…80%….90%…I’d like to think it was higher but after tonight, it’s clear I’m not quite there yet.
His response was a bit of a let down to be honest. Without looking at me he said “No, it doesn’t help…but it doesn’t hurt to know”.
I finally got the whole picture behind why my using the word “prick” had been such a big deal to CJ...remember me saying I thought it was a rather silly argument?
On the couch I explained to him that for ME…that word refers to behaviour that is intentionally sarcastic, or bugging…. Our pal D is the perfect example…he can argue with you with a condescending tone…or make repeated inane queries…THAT is what I think of when I use that word.
I asked CJ if his definition, perhaps was broader…since I’d thought of a lot of words to describe what he’d done but “prick” wasn’t really one of them.
Well it turns out that “Prick” that EXACT word is what CJ has been calling himself, dwelling on having been such a “prick” etc….”
I asked CJ what his lack of self forgiveness was about. He said that it got back to core beliefs…one of his being that he was a GOOD PERSON. That he had moral fibre (a minimum he said??), that he was “above all that”, that he wouldn’t do the things he did.
I suggested that there was an element of pride there. He took great exception to this word. I’m not sure he understood what I meant.
I told him about many of us LBS on the bb grappling with the pride or self righteousness of NOT having been the one to stray, of being the ones who were moral and good.
I asked him if he believed that ANYONE could be vulnerable to an A, given the right circumstances…He thought about it, and said “Yes, vulnerable, but not everyone would ACT on it.” True.
I went back to his core belief…I told him that MY belief is that he IS a good person, he WAS a good person…but he DID some bad things. Our families, our friends without exception knew and know this. I told him that if I didn’t believe he was a good person, I wouldn’t stay with him, I wouldn’t be here right now.
He said, "on the scale of badness, wrongness, evilness what I did"...…and I, in bad form, cut him off and say…well you didn’t kill or maim anyone…but then caught myself and invited him to finish.
He said “what I did is UP there…and it’s hard to deal with…and it doesn’t matter what ANYONE else thinks or feels…it’s how I feel”.
I asked him if he could see a time when he COULD integrate this…he said he hoped so, but couldn’t envision it….he said, as in his letter, (where he mentioned his lack of self forgiveness) that it didn’t change how he felt about me or us. I said that it DOES have an impact on me…how could it not?
My January trip to Chapters is going to include a tome or two on forgiveness, as my man needs some help!
We ended with a kiss and ILY’s and I came here to journal. Bet I missed 40% of it none-the-less.
I Just got finished writing a 3 page letter for CJ to find when he wakes up...what a day!!
My heart started pounding as I initially read your post.
However, I began to relax a bit midway through as CJ’s response to the word “prick” was revealed.
What I see here is a significant peeling away of yet another layer.
As you already know, sometimes the mere act of bringing inner thoughts or feelings out into the atmosphere, onto the stage of the verbal ballet, is a positive step for the process of healing.
Perhaps on a subconscious level, you instinctively stepped in at a time when the opportunity presented itself, and lanced his wound.
CJ said something that jumped out at me,
Quote: "...it’s hard to deal with…and it doesn’t matter what ANYONE else thinks or feels…it’s how I feel”.
You responded (as I would have) by including yourself in the breakdown and by trying to help him see the measure of your forgiveness and your acceptance. I say ‘excellent’ and I believe he 'got it' and believes you.
Now I would make a suggestion to you here.
Because you have been (and continue to be), forgiving and magnanimous - the spotlight is clearly on him.
Perhaps the greatest help you can offer now is to LET him own his ghosts by simply validating whatever he shares with you.
A person with that kind of moral fiber most often has a need for some kind of repentance in order to move on.
If nobody else is going to beat him up…well then… he’ll just have to do it himself.
Moreover, as you and I do not believe that it is our place to punish, we are left with few options other than giving our S the room and the right to do so for themselves.
I see much hope here.
By the way, that letter you got from CJ is just what I've been wishing for as a present from my H. I may never get one, but I’m sure glad you did.
{{{Shiny}}}, what a great conversation. That you both can be THAT honest and open, I applaud you. Wow!
BTW--don't you know it's not a good idea to argue with someone who's had a FEW or one too many.. , but it sounded like yours turned out for the better. At least in my case, my H's conversations while he was drunk, were a lot of times, not remembered the next day. Thus the reason I always told him to go to bed. Cathy
I was going to post a long response, but Jeannine has already said everything I was thinking. I'm so glad that you didn't just let it end after the arguement. That "debriefing" time afterwards was so important!
There are some REAL pricks out there, and some of their spouses are on these bb's! I'm sure that CJ is dissappointed in himself, but there's a lot that he didn't do...run off with XOW, abandon his family, repeat the same mistake over and over again with new OW's.
Staying through the tough part to rebuild a new R with you, facing his own guilt and recriminations, taking responsibility and improving himself as a result...those are not the actions of a prick! Those are the actions of a brave adult man who did some bad things, and hopefully has grown as a result. What more can anyone ask?
P.S. LOVE your love letter (I'm still waiting for one, but not holding my breath!)
(Well I guess it was early morning reading for most of you)
CJ thanked me for my letter, alas no time to talk as by the time I got up it was off to his sis and BIL's for his family's Christmas dinner....(something there did't agree with me...another night of gastric upset ).
I agree with so many of the insights you all shared. I DO think it was more than just coincidence that I used THAT particular word...as I've explained it's not one I use much (I'd say bastard or SOB ).
I agree with you, Cath about alcohol fueling arguments...it did play a role here, albeit minor. CJ'd had a few drinks, but it was over the whole visit, through dinner...It DOES lower inhibitions, and sure doesn't help impulse control
But it DID need to come out...I said so in my letter. We needed to have that talk, and more such. I had no idea he was SO far from forgiving himself!
Jeannine? Tal?...my memory SUCKS! ...Someone said that his current actions are NOT that of a "prick"...exactly!
But you are also right that CJ really DOES believe he DESERVES to suffer for this. He told me so in the beginning...and he admitted it again last night.
I apologized to him for bringing the ghost of the A into our argument over J. I said it was a low blow to get the upper hand, end the escalating words...NOT something I think is right nor plan on repeating (can't guarantee that, however this was one of very few slips of this nature).
He shrugged and said "why not? I deserve it".
So I suppose you are right, it will take him time and his own inner work to resolve this...In a way it's weirdly comforting that he feels THIS badly about it all.
Not that I want him to suffer...but heck it sure beats making excuses, rationalizing, blaming me....
What is most worrisome about his need for self-punishment is the backlash on your ability to have a good R (hard to be happy if he feels he doesn't deserve it).
Quote: What is most worrisome about his need for self-punishment is the backlash on your ability to have a good R (hard to be happy if he feels he doesn't deserve it).
This I second in a real big way!!!!!! It is I believe a part of what happened to our marriage. I was still beating myself up from guilt over my divorce. I didn't deserve to be happy.
The one thing this mess has done for me, well more than one as I have found a person I never knew was inside me, but I have found self forgiveness. I don't think that is something anyone else can give you or really help you with, you have to get to the point you realize you can't keep beating yourself up for your past and let it ruin your present. I realized I cannot go back and make amends, there is nothing further to be done in that sitch. It is time to let go and move on with my life. I hope CJ comes to that point quicker than I did.
Pam
"We must be willing to let go of the life we had planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us"
) an awesome new printer with scanner and photocopy abilities (no DVD player!)....and, get this one Pam...a Foot Massager!!! 
...No Kidding! And he hasn't been on the bb since July! 
, but it sounded like yours turned out for the better. At least in my case, my H's conversations while he was drunk, were a lot of times, not remembered the next day. 