Another crisis.....but H opening up now

[angel61]

Why does it have to take a crisis to cause a turn in the sitch?

The last time, it was D's cutting. At that point, H stopped talking about separation or divorce, and seemingly hunkered down for a long term miserable existence. I let it be, thinking that nothing lasts forever anyway, but the contact with OW was continuous, the way he treated me cycled, nothing much happened over the last 5 months.

This time it is D again.

She is starting to have problems in school - a victim of emotional abuse from her friends. She is an introvert, passive, but her friends all want to control her, not wanting her to be friends with others, threatening to spill her secrets if she does. So she has lost trust, and added to the bigger fact that she shared with me that she thinks that my M is hopeless, even if we stay together..... thus making her life suxx, she has on occasion has had suicidal ideations.

She thinks her life is meaningless, directionless. I of course tried to turn her thinking around but kids never listen to their parents. Especially since in her mind we are the cause of her misery in a big way.

I of course had to tell H. I meant to just say it without blame and judgement, but at when I actually did, I had a melt down. I started crying great big sobs, my pain for my D and our situation suddenly came flooding back to me.

I suddenly felt like bursting .... all the silece of the past months, all the resentment that I had buried came flooding back. I lost all my DB'in abilities. All I could do was to plead with him to stop this foolishness - to think of how this situation was tearing up our family, destroying his beloved daughter.

He was initially quiet, then later asked me if I really think it was all his fault. I looked at him and nodded sarcastically. he got mad at me, then I told him that we should stop all this asking about who is to blame or not. I told him I needed to get my anger off my chest, but at that point I was ready to forgive again and start working on how we will handle the problem of D, and that blaming each other would not help. I again said that I wanted him to stop conatcting OW, and he said yes, but that he would handle it his way. I said if he needed time I understand, but that if he wanted things to be better he has to end it. He actually readily acquiesced, which surprised me. the rest of the night was spent trying to be more cheerful around a morose D.

The next day, D refused to go to school. I had to go to an out of the city site, so I was dressing up when H came up to me. He said that he really had no intention of leaving the M, if he did, he would have been gone a long time ago. He said he knew he was in a midlife crisis, and this made him really confused. He also said that he could have ended the R with OW if not because I was watching him too much and controlling him. It made him feel rebellious thus he re-contacted OW again.

I had to leave so we were not able to finish our convo.

(To be continued)....

[angel61]

While I was at work I kept on thinking of what I did and said, and I did not know whether I had completely ruined everything, all the chances we had, by reverting back to being controlling and by the initial blaming that I did. I kept on justifying my actions by saying that whatever it may be, we cannot rock the boat right now because of our D's situation.

Our conversations though, unlike before, was so much calmer, so much more productive. He was not being illogical most of the time, rather he was telling me about how he was reacting, and he also admitted several times how he knew what he wanted was wrong, how he knew that, how he actually did not maintain an actual R with the OW (no ILY's exchanged, no committments, no expectations).

When I got back from work, I again had a total meltdown, but at least I was alone. When he came back with D12 he was very attentive to both of us, he cooked dinner, and even brought the dog crate upstairs so D would have a companion in the room. He also started making small talk with me, talking about his sisters, his work, and generally being upbeat.

Next day I brought D12 to the therapist. She revealed so much problems at school, apparently her two best friends are jealous of her and threatening her if she makes friends with other girls, that after the session, when I told H about it, he was so upset that he immediately asked me to think about transferring D12 to another school.

That afternoon, we were discussing D12, her problems, the parents of the kids involved (who are also our friends), and what to do. Suddenly, out of nowhere, he told me that he understood how D12 felt becuase that was the same as how he was feeling. Stuck.

I decided to follow him up on it. Very calmly, I asked him to describe how he felt. He told me that first of all, I have nothing to do with it, its not me, not my fault. He just wants to have freedom.

He said that initially, pursuing OW was very important for him, but at this point, the feelings are already waning. He even told me that what I said was true, that the excitement wouldn't last, and that the distance and the knowledge that it was bound to fail has taken its toll.

The problem, he said, is that he does not have feelings for me anymore and that he could not imagine how we were going to have to suffer this in misery for the next 30 years or so of our lives. he feels hopeless, does not see a way out of it, he does not want to get out of the M either for two reasons: we have a child and his religious beliefs.

He talked about the worst option, which was to take his own life, and being attractive as it was runing away.But he knew he would never do that. Next worst thing would be to throw away everything and leave the M. Again, he said that he knew that would not work either, because we would always be connected, he still had his responsibilities, he would feel horrible not fulfilling his obligations. His other thoughts were that we would separate, but live together, allowing him freedom and yet the staisfaction of fulfilling his obligations, etc. but all of those were unsatisfactory in some way or another, so it still comes down to us remaining together.

I told him that the least we could do if we both think there is no other way but to stay was to just try to keep each day as pleasant as we could. He agreed.

At the end of the conversation, I started feeling really bad for him, not for me, because I could see the struggle he was having, and it really tore me up as well. I came over to him, gave him a hug, told him that he is a good man and that I feel so bad for him, and he did not resist.

One good thing that came out from all of this is that he is now willing to go to retrouvaille. If anything, just to try to find some purpose in life, in our M. I told him that I am not expecting him to love me, but just that we should try to make the best of what we have. I have registered for the next session.

I am now going to pull back, we;ve had to many deep convos. Although it seems to have brougt a breath of fresh air somehow, it still shows that he is deep in it. I don't know though if the ability to communicate about it and admit eveything without anger is a sign of moving forward.

I myself am so confused about all that has happened, I have been so reactive that I want to be able to pull myself together.

Comments, anyone?

[Walking]

The last time, it was D's cutting. At that point, H stopped talking about separation or divorce, and seemingly hunkered down for a long term miserable existence. I let it be, thinking that nothing lasts forever anyway, but the contact with OW was continuous, the way he treated me cycled, nothing much happened over the last 5 months.

This time it is D again.

She is starting to have problems in school - a victim of emotional abuse from her friends. She is an introvert, passive, but her friends all want to control her, not wanting her to be friends with others, threatening to spill her secrets if she does. So she has lost trust, and added to the bigger fact that she shared with me that she thinks that my M is hopeless, even if we stay together..... thus making her life suxx, she has on occasion has had suicidal ideations.

She thinks her life is meaningless, directionless. I of course tried to turn her thinking around but kids never listen to their parents. Especially since in her mind we are the cause of her misery in a big way.

Hi Angel

Sometimes I think it’s helpful to reframe some issues so we can become more realistic about them. Sometimes, I think we make issues bigger than they need to be, so we can use them to gain attention or otherwise manipulate a situation to how we want it to be.

There is a pattern you seem to have fallen into of using your daughters growing-pains to engage your husband. The risk with that is, that your daughter can’t help but know, subconsciously, that she’s a player in the dynamic between you and your H. That’s potentially pretty damaging stuff for a young girl in her formative years. Those scars can stay with us for life and set her up to be codependent and lack self-awareness as an adult.

Realistically, kids have problems with their friends at school. It’s actually a part of learning to be a social creature. School and our childhood friendships are the basis upon which we develop our resilience and personal ethics and boundaries. She needs to go through those experiences to understand how the world works and to build the resources she will need in herself to operate in the world as an adult.

It’s great that you and your H are so involved in her life – but, and I say this with the greatest of respect – there also seems to be an element of control and transference in your reaction to her school-yard issues.

I of course had to tell H. I meant to just say it without blame and judgement

What blame and judgement can you possibly infer, or even think, he has that your daughter is having a tough time with her friends at school??? Can you see that is a pretty long bow to draw?

In your head, your world would be perfect if your husband would just snap out of it and love you again. But your daughter’s issues are your daughters issues, and the way she is coping with them, is with the skills that she has. The only blame I can see that can be apportioned is that somehow she has learned that when things go wrong- rather than deal with what’s happened, it’s reasonable to break-down, self-harm, blame everyone else and maybe kill herself.

Angel, are you going to IC? Girl, I know this is tough and I know that it’s painful – but we have the option to grow through this experience and learn about how we have been creating some of our own problems by the way we deal with them. What you do and how you behave is what your daughter is learning is “normal”. That’s a big responsibility and one I know you take very seriously.

[Ctflor]

((((((angel)))))

I have no advice, just wanted to send a hug to you. I'm starting to read your threads.

[Cyrena]

Hi Angel,

I have to agree with Walking. The most difficult challenge my son had as a young teen was 2 long-term friends who turned on him, ridiculed him publicly, etc, and he had to learn how to deal with loss and change and anger, and how to get out of bad relationships. It was awful for him to go through, and he needed a lot of support, but it was an invaluable life-lesson. And now he is more aware of what is/is not tolerable in a friendship. My son became so much stronger, so that last year when a boy with various challenges was getting under his skin, he had the skills to deal with verbal abuse, etc, and create a workable relationship with him.

It would probably be good to consult with the school therapist about the situation before transferring your D to another school--she may be able to suggest options which allow your D more agency.

[PEI]

angel,

I have to agree with Walking as well. Children in "white picket fence" homes have issues with kids at school. I have an extremely low tolerence for bullying, and think that sometimes intervention is necessary, but letting kids learn valuable life and coping skills is one of OUR jobs. We can't fix everything for them, but we can give them a tool box of skills to survive whatever life throws their way.

The problem, he said, is that he does not have feelings for me anymore and that he could not imagine how we were going to have to suffer this in misery for the next 30 years or so of our lives. he feels hopeless, does not see a way out of it, he does not want to get out of the M either for two reasons: we have a child and his religious beliefs.

angel, is this ^^^ good enough for you?

PEI

[angel61]

I am glad that H is out of the country so soon after all this happened, as I have time to think and reflect. It is true, that no matter how I look at it, I still end up blaming every situation on H, and my being quiet about it and not outwardly blaming him does not mean to say that inside me I am not being resentful. I need to really and truly let go, but even if every cell in my gray matter is telling me to do so, I still have not, and I just have to keep on trying until I succeed.

I sometimes hate myself for being what I am. You are right that in my head I think that if my H just snaps out of it everything will be OK. It may seem OK for me but the question is.... will it be OK for him and my D? As you all said, my D will still have issues and what we need most is to give her the tools, but with the example I am showing her, my weakness in dealing with this situation, am I giving it to her?

I did have a C (a few actually) but I don't think they really helped, they seemed to be intimtidated by my knowledge and comprehension, and one of them was totally in the mode of "you have to divorce your husband because he is abusing you" kind of mindset. Looking at this in a Freudian way: because I am an MD and I know and understand all of this, it is so easy for me (the doctor, my ego) when discussing the issues to turn it around and discuss it like I am the therapist as well. I have this issue where I can see my problematic self (probably my id) as a separate entity almost, and know what is the treatment, but I cannot merge my id and ego (my ego feels that the treatment, or what I must do, cannot apply as that would mean losing control) thus my compromise is that I act like how I think I should have, but since it is not something my ego believes, it does not really address my problem and my changes are not real. When an emtional situation arises I lose control and my acting as if and then get totally confused. Does this make sense? Add this to the fact that my H is an MD too, and I see him too dissociating his thinking self from his feeling self.

Walking, you do seem very well versed in understanding transference. I think both me and my daughter are finding common ground in blaming one person for our bad situation in life. I am using her in a sense and she is using me.

I do take this very seriously, and I am trying to formulate a plan for me to deal with both the present situation (logistics regarding my daughters problems) and my inability to do what I need to do.

I will post as I get more clarity in this, I will be brainstroming within myself, but I welcome any concrete ideas going froward from all of you. You all have contributed a lot in making me understand the situation, but it is getting to be more and more complex.

Maybe we do all need a vacation from each other!

[angel61]

PEI,

At this point I don't want to think of "what is good enough for me". Definitely we know the situation is not good enough for all of us, but again, how do we solve it? Will running away solve it? I already have the answer from my H for that - he himself knows that him running away from it is not a solution, and so if he can be strong that way, I have to be strong too and tackle this bull by the horns.

Again, thaks you for all the advice regarding my D12. I will separate her issues from that of me and my H from now on, that is one resolve I will really hold on to . I did make that promise to myself before but have broken it, but I just have to keep on trying. because no matter how bad a parent I am, no matter how self destructive, I am the only mom she has and taking myself out of the picture is not an option.

[Walking]

I did have a C (a few actually) but I don't think they really helped, they seemed to be intimtidated by my knowledge and comprehension, and one of them was totally in the mode of "you have to divorce your husband because he is abusing you" kind of mindset. Looking at this in a Freudian way: because I am an MD and I know and understand all of this, it is so easy for me (the doctor, my ego) when discussing the issues to turn it around and discuss it like I am the therapist as well. I have this issue where I can see my problematic self (probably my id) as a separate entity almost, and know what is the treatment, but I cannot merge my id and ego (my ego feels that the treatment, or what I must do, cannot apply as that would mean losing control) thus my compromise is that I act like how I think I should have, but since it is not something my ego believes, it does not really address my problem and my changes are not real. When an emotional situation arises I lose control and my acting as if and then get totally confused. Does this make sense? Add this to the fact that my H is an MD too, and I see him too dissociating his thinking self from his feeling self.

Ah yes ... the old getting it from the head to the heart problem. I know it well. You know cognitively what has to happen, but those old beliefs, fears and expectations keep you stuck repeating the same old patterns.

You are absolutely right too in relation to the resentment and anger you feel for what you perceive your husband is “doing to you” – that ‘fake it until you make it’ is a smart strategy – but until it becomes real, he will know you are faking it and while that resentment burns in you, he is feeling it. It’s not attractive and it’s not helpful to rebuilding a relationship with each other. Actually, it’s incredibly destructive.

Angel – sometimes it’s OK not to be in control. When we try to control situations it’s like telling God that we know better than him (and it’s certainly telling your husband that you think you know better than him). It’s arrogant and it’s an exhausting way to live. It’s also a very masculine energy and not attractive to men in a partner.

I get the feeling you are still trying to find a way to “fix” your relationship and “fix” your husband. I notice that he gives you an inch

His other thoughts were that we would separate, but live together, allowing him freedom and yet the staisfaction of fulfilling his obligations, etc.

And you take a mile

One good thing that came out from all of this is that he is now willing to go to retrouvaille. If anything, just to try to find some purpose in life, in our M. I told him that I am not expecting him to love me, but just that we should try to make the best of what we have. I have registered for the next session.

From the casual observers point of view, this just looks like pursuit and control. That’s not attractive in a woman. The man is telling you “I don’t want to be with you, I want my freedom, you won’t let me have it, so I’m going to suck it up because of my “obligations”" … and then you tell him well that’s not good enough, we’ll go to Retrouville. I notice you’ve made the booking and you are organizing the trip. It’s still control and it’s still all about you.

And what are you doing telling him “you don’t expect him to love you”? Do you see how much of a victim that makes you look to him (and your daughter)? Do you want to model that little self respect?

You can make the transition to understanding this stuff in your heart and making it real for you. But first you have to be willing to accept that your way is not always the right way and other people you love have a right to their own feelings and choices.

When we keep doing what we’ve always done, we keep getting what we’ve always got.

((hugs))) take care, this is a very difficult time – but we are sent these times to grow and to build resilience and new skills. You are being refined in this fire …

Blessings, V

[angel61]

So frustrated with myself.

I spent the whole morning thinking praying, talking to myself. Admitting to myself that what I am doing, what influences my decisions, what I have done in the past, is all about myself. I have been through this before and know that I am able to let the resentment go away and acknowledge my mistakes. When those times happen, I feel a great weight lift off me, and I actually do feel happy and hopeful. But once in a while something happens, and Ilose it and everything comes flooding back to me. Thus I know that I have not really let go of the resentment but have just hidden it somwhere.

Anyway, what I was thinking of this morning was how my H said that in the past I have been so domineering about major decisions, pointing out that one time I wanted to make an offer on a house and I just had the broker prepare everything, and when he arrived I just shoved the papers under his nose and demanded he sign it. I had actually forgotten that incident (it was just so much part of how I was) but now I cringe when I think of that incident, and some others as well. I still have not admitted it openlyto H though, still defending myself by saying I had no intentions of being domineering. Duh.

On the other hand, H is also very controlling, obviously so, in almost every aspect of daily life. I don't know if he is reacting to my being domineering that he has to try to pull his weight as well.

Anyway, back to my source of frustration: H and I have decided that since D12 is not only hvaing problems with her friends but also is not being challenged academically, we might as well look for a school for her. Our choices are either public (not good in our area), Catholic (in next city, very similar to ours), or a high end private school (very expensive though, but good reputation). Last Friday we checked out the private school and it was fantastic! D12 was so excited. I felt that although it would be a stretch, if we did judiciously apportioned our expenses we could do it. Remember, one of the changes H has had since MLC started is that he now has an expensive taste in clothing.

I emailed H as he is out of town about it. In my mind, I already said to myself that I was not going to try to influence him to make a decision.

He called midday, and I started out with telling him how well D12 did in the interview, and how nice the school was. Somehow, as we talked, I forgot all about my resolve and found myself trying to convince him that we should enrol our daughter in the school, and even using examples of how our friends coped financially when he seemed to hesitate. I could not seem to stop talking, even when I knew that I was getting in too deep. I got off the phone feeling so frustrated with myself, and thinking about how controlling and dominant I sounded. I then started to think of how I did not want to be like that. I ended up emailing him, telling him that I knew I was carried away by my excitement and that I wanted him, when he came back, to see for himslef and make is own decision regarding the school, and not be influenced by my enthusiasm.

This is an example of the daily battles I have to do with myself. Sometimes I wish I could just stop talking entirely as I seem to be digging myself a bigger and bigger hole everytime I do.

And of course its not just about me and H. If i don't learn this, I stand to ruin every relationship I have. I did have one previous relationship, looking back now, that failed because of my dominance. He was my BF before my H.

But again, those of you who have successfully turned your lives around: How did you do it? How long did it take? How did you change even just one aspect of your behaviour that has been ingrained in your psyche since you were born, just because you realize that it is not the right thing? How could you stop from letting yourself slide down the old familiar ways? What kind of vigilance is required for this?