Stillness

[aeolianchaos]

Part II: Postcards from Europe

WAW: I care so much about what others think, that it effects my mindset about myself
anyways, this isnt important to you- i'm surprised you're even talking to me...
Aeolian Chaos: You feel/think/are aware of a connection to where how you perceive other people's opinion of you has a strong influence on how you perceive yourself?
Why are you surprised I am talking to you?
WAW: definitely, and I guess i'm just not sure if its ok for me to write you- or how to communicate with you....I dont know what you think of me, where you are,emotionally... I mean I turned the corner in london, going to the modern art museum with Friend, and there it was .....this huge miro exhibition. I saw all the paintings we had in our place... it was incredible, and I was thinking about you the whole time and I didnt know if it was ok for me to tell you that, so I bought this postcard to tell you about my day, that I spent by myself, in London- in this art museum. but I didnt know if you would hate me for it. Mutual Friend said I should leave you alone-
Aeolian Chaos: Theres a lot to respond to there. Some of it, I don't know that I have a good response to off the top of my head.
Why do you think I might hate you for seeing the Miro exhibit?
WAW: hate me for contacting you, to tell you that you were in my thoughts and I was remembering how much we loved experiencing art together
Aeolian Chaos: Yes.. I have you to thank for my expanded appreciation of art
WAW: its the same reason I wanted to send your mother a rock from the Rhine river
Aeolian Chaos: What reason is that?
WAW: remembering time spent with your family and with you...
Aeolian Chaos: You wanted to send me a postcard to remember time you spent with me?
WAW: no, I wanted to tell you that I was thinking about you, and the things that we loved to do together
WAW: and tell your mom that I miss her, and wanted to send her another rock for her collection
what stopped me was what you would think- if you would be upset or angry with me
Aeolian Chaos: You were worried about how I would respond to your experience?
WAW: yes
Aeolian Chaos: Why did you think I would be angry with you?
WAW: because you dont want to hear from me
Aeolian Chaos: Why do you think that?
WAW: because you want to try and move on with your life and its easier to do that if you dont hear from me
Aeolian Chaos: Well I'm working on the lessons I've learned. I'm working on learning the lessons I have to fully learn yet.
Aeolian Chaos: God knows I've learned a lot.. brain feels full sometimes.
WAW: well you have a very big brain:)
Aeolian Chaos: And a head to fit it in!
WAW: also true:)

[aeolianchaos]

Interlude: Where pleasant discussion about Birthdays, Beers, apartment hunting, yoga, and traveling take place.

Part III : Scherzo and Finale

Aeolian Chaos: Haha no nothing quite as exciting as that. Networking..
WAW: oh ok. well thats great
Aeolian Chaos: yeah. should be fun.
WAW: I hope it goes well.well, I have to say, I'm kind of glad you're staying in [THIS TOWN WE LIVE IN].
Aeolian Chaos: Why is that?
WAW: because you were a big part of my life. and still are. you're like family. even if we dont see each other- I hope that some day we might be able to...but knowing you're here is nice
Aeolian Chaos: I can see how you might feel that way.
I guess I wonder why you would want a friendship with someone you don't respect?
WAW: I do respect you
WAW: you're a kind, thoughtful, smart, funny guy
WAW: I know I said some things, about not respecting you, but it had more to do with you as a musician, than you as a person
and it was hurtful, and I regret that
Aeolian Chaos: You feel like your choices over the past year were rooted in a lack of respect for my musical accomplishments?
WAW: no. i cant say that they were rooted in that at all
in fact i dont think I could say that they were rooted in any one thing
I think it had way more to do with me, dealing with my own issues, than you as a musician
Aeolian Chaos: I can understand that. Do you think that there were choices you made that didn't represent your issues but perhaps your strengths?
WAW: im not sure I understand that question
Aeolian Chaos: I guess its kind of a complicated question.
But I tend to think that we all have a nasty side.. and many times a lot of that nastiness is directed internally.. the stuff that beats us down, makes us afraid... but I think there is also the best in us
Aeolian Chaos: and thats the side that is capable of love, compassion, true kindness.. and also in showing those things to ourselves. Its the part that allows us all to confront ourselves for the purpose of raising ourselves up, not to beat ourselves down. The part that actually enables us to be true to ourselves and our values.
whereas the worst in us the part that pretends to be self-confrontation, but really its just about whipping ourselves some more, making us feel afraid and act impulsively
WAW: well I definitely know that I wasnt acting in a way that showed the best in me and the decisions I made reflected that. I feel like we both are trying to be better people
Aeolian Chaos: Sure.. but you can't say that you sold yourself out 100% of the time can you?
WAW: no
Aeolian Chaos: When I say 'sold yourself out' - I mean you went against your higher principles or violated your own integrity.
WAW: no i cant say I did that 100% of the time. but I did
Aeolian Chaos: We all do in our own ways.
(cue: example of Aeolian Chaos owning his own bad behavior for about 6 lines)
And worse still, the fact that a part of me secretly agreed with what she said!
But it was easier to dodge that hit, for me at the time.. at great expense to my own integrity and my relationships with your family
Aeolian Chaos: all the while couching it in terms of someone not respecting me.
WAW: i get that. but I understood why you didnt want to be around her or my dad, because of how you felt at the time. we try and make the best decisions we can with the information we have at the time, and where we are emotionally at the time whether they are the right ones or not. and now you're learning from it, as am i.
Aeolian Chaos: Yep. If i had it to do over again, I like to think there are a lot of things I would do differently.
Aeolian Chaos: Anyways, I'm sure you've got stuff to do and I need to get back to work.
Aeolian Chaos: Be well.
WAW: I will
WAW: go ahead and just leave it.
WAW: take care Aeolian Chaos

[aeolianchaos]

So, my first thought is: how the heck did I let myself have a two hour conversation? I guess I was happy to hear from her, but not really... I was actually irritated at first, but I figured "she contacted me, so I'll try to just listen"

My second thought is, I think I did a good job of listening and just asking questions.. most of the time.

Not so sure about the last portion: I guess it was more ideas-focused than about my feelings or her feelings, really. Kind of just putting that framework out there for her to consider.

It isn't my job to teach her, but she keeps struggling with this idea of implicit personality vs. situational, and I do feel like perhaps if she could get her head around that more, it might speed up her journey.

Also: While I didn't reiterate my position (no, we are not going to be "friends" at this point, as it would be very painful for me to be around her while she is living it up w/ some OM), I do maintain it. I also wonder what the heck she thinks that friendship would look like in the first place? Right now I feel like I am dealing with someone who has blown their integrity in a big way and chose to run from it rather than grow from it. Also I am dealing with someone who has broken my heart and caused me a great amount of stress. It is hard for me to envision what that friendship would look like other than some kind of form of emotional fusion.

I'm also deeply skeptical of some of her expressions of remorse and confusion : I was looking at a mutual friends facebook page yesterday and up popped a photo of Her and OM at a baseball game about 1.5 months after she walked out. My first reaction was anger, followed by disgust, followed by disgust in myself for even reacting.

So much for dropping the rope, emotionally speaking. I didn't act on it, and did my best to chill myself out but it still irritates the p!$$ out of me that she is acting so confused and weak around me, but then still hanging out with OM (who she claimed she didn't want to be with). Not sure why it irritates me so much - maybe because I do want to believe that the best in her would have integrity and be honest.

So, I'm disappointed when she still lies despite how little reason she has to at this point. Or maybe its because I choose to remain open to the idea of reconciliation and when she does things like this, it makes me feel like not only does she not want to, it makes me question if she's worth it. And I don't like that thought, either.

[ESN]

I'm learning about change cycles. There's opportunity that presents change (like a job) there is shock (divorce, death, etc) and there is growth - where we just outgrow things.

I think you're in a major change cycle right now - deeply - and she is not.

Continue with your cocooning, and morphing into the butterfly you're about to become.

In other words, keep going about your business. Don't "do" anything.

[aeolianchaos]

Thanks, LG..

I don't doubt that there is some kind of change going on. Seems like its been going on so long now that I find myself questioning if I'm really changing.

But I'm pretty sure I am, just not entirely sure what that's going to look like.

However - I'm sure there are things I could have done better -- or opportunities that I missed in this conversation. So I would hope that at the very least I go to bed with a few bruises tonight.

Of course, anyone who wants to dare interpreting my W's language for me - please do. Any messages in all of that?

[ESN]

I know what you mean. WABF recently initiated a long R talk (he did most of the talking) and I was left feeling exactly the same - should I have reassured him? Did I say something to push him farther away, etc?

But in the end, I just had to drop it. Who knows what it meant. If there's real change, you'll know it and won't have to guess at it.

In the meantime, just keep doing what you're doing. At best, she sounds like she was putting feelers out - weakly (as you pointed out) to see what was up with you and somehow tenderly let you know she'd spent a day reminiscing and perhaps wondering if she made a mistake - but clearly not doing much to reconcile that if she felt she had ... just keep being the guy any woman would be a fool to leave (as 25 or whoever it is says).... I'm sure there will be more convos like this. Stick to your guns about the friend thing if that's what you want.

I also get this odd sense she's looking to you for soothing somehow. But I can't explain that. Like trying to appease her guilt ..

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=aeolianchaos]Thanks, LG..

I don't doubt that there is some kind of change going on. Seems like its been going on so long now that I find myself questioning if I'm really changing.

But I'm pretty sure I am, just not entirely sure what that's going to look like.

OMG--This was a long talk! But like you said, SHE initiated it. And you know what?
Your responses were about as DBing perfect as ANY I've seen here,
AND you were not expecting the call! Wow...

I Loved the "would do many things differently" answer. (So applicable SO often) and I thought

she sounded extremely receptive to insights. And kind.

Also struck me that she was grateful to hear your forgiveness, without either of you saying it out loud. Beautiful...just gracious on both ends. I will have to read up on all the history b/c I don't recall how angry it once was...but from where I sat reading it, unless this is a one time only contact, I smell a serious reaching out.

Either she's just wanting to honestly get things off her chest with some ownership (nothing wrong with that)

AND....OR

she's reaching out. Could be both. Could be reaching out to see what can be rebuilt and that could include mere friendship...but could also mean more.

IF there is a recon you can spell things out more IF truly needed...

but I no longer believe I have to match up my historical reviews with my h's b/c I now believe it's frickin' impossible to recall and view history between 2 people in identical ways.

Accident witnesses don't agree.

What matters is now and tomorrow, agreeing on how to move "from this day forward"...

WELL DONE A, very well done.

[b]
However - I'm sure there are things I could have done better -- or opportunities that I missed in this conversation. So I would hope that at the very least I go to bed with a few bruises tonight.

Of course, anyone who wants to dare interpreting my W's language for me - please do. Any messages in all of that? [/quote][/b]


A suggested response for future reference...

The suggestions for replies to marital revisions-you already know one of them...(i.e., the 2nd one)

1) If it's a wildly inaccurate revision of an event, or something you don't even recall, (Or you believe is actually a lie), you say "Wow, i don't recall it that way (or at all) but I'm sorry if you were upset/hurt."

(BTW--don't rule out the possibility that you can actually forget an event. Worst thing I did was literally FORGET an event in which I made an ambiguous remark that in hindsight DID probably sound sarcastic (wasn't).

But dang, I didn't recall it AT ALL when h brought it up, so I denied it happened. Only later when all 3 kids recalled it for me, did I cringe!! Talk about looking stupid AND wrong and weirdly defensive and dishonest, blah blah blah BLECH.....

So learn from MY mistake. Don't deny an event that ooops, DID happen and ooops find out you DiD hurt them...-Never say they are "lying" or "twisting things" 'as usual' and or 'escalating".

The first response written, as is, defies argument & prevents escalation.

2) If it's a revision that has some or a lot of validity to it, and you SO wish you had done it differently, you can say "well yes, if I had it to do over again, there are LOTS of things I'd do differently",

This also defies argument or escalation AND it shows insight on Your part...i.e., you are changing...you are not defending...you are NOT excusing...you are "GETTING IT"...

AND that = Things could be different. And neither response makes you a doormat.

A third one I came up with the other day is for when you know they've said something important but

you are so taken aback that you literally don't know what to say

(Or they don't deserve a reply, maybe, but you don't want to be rude)

you say

"Spouse, I got your voicemail. I'm sure there's a perfect answer to your message, but at the moment, it escapes me. --Spouse"


A, For an unexpected conversation, you did very well.

Ya done good!

[25yearsmlc]

PS

But A, let her do the contacting for now.

Even though She initiated that call, it's far from enough to

be safe for you you to pick up the phone & be her new bff...

keep your detachment work ongoing.

[ESN]

Wow, 25 - you need to post those somewhere! Great stuff! I wish I had known that in my unexpected R talk with exBF - I mean, I don't think I did too bad - but those are great!

[aeolianchaos]

AND you were not expecting the call!

Just to be clear, it was an online chat. I thought about saying a lot of things but then thought better of it.

One of the great things about that kind of communication is that I feel like i have the space to really process what I want to say and what reflects me and who I want to be the best.

It's like opening the cookie jar, and then putting the lid back on without taking anything out.

Could be reaching out to see what can be rebuilt and that could include mere friendship...but could also mean more.

I wrestle with this. I don't want to read too much into her words or be led on unnecessarily. However, I don't want to FAIL to lead her in that direction if guidance is part of what she is looking for.

I purposely avoided arguing w/ or stating my feelings yesterday for that reason. I have been clear that I still want to be married, that I refuse to hold onto my old grudges, and that I want to be married to someone who wants me.

I don't believe that continuing to state these things will be parts of what works.

But she clearly believes -or wants me to believe she believes- that I do not want to hear from her and have no interest in any kind of communication.

Keep in mind, this is someone who walked out and filed for divorce w/in a month.

I also don't know if perhaps she regrets that choice.

But dang, I didn't recall it AT ALL when h brought it up, so I denied it happened. Only later when all 3 kids recalled it for me, did I cringe!! Talk about looking stupid AND wrong and weirdly defensive and dishonest, blah blah blah BLECH.....

The mind certainly can play tricks on us. And you're correct, it is easy to forget that while people have shared experiences, they also have their own distinct personal experience and it may be wildly different from my own.

I don't know that I encountered any of that yesterday, but I will need to think more about that phenomenon and how it applies in my circumstances. Thank you.

"Spouse, I got your voicemail. I'm sure there's a perfect answer to your message, but at the moment, it escapes me. --Spouse"

This is gold. Thank you, again!