OW called our house

[ncl]

All that said, the feelings of disgust I am having towards the thought of H touching me are deeply disturbing me though. I assuming they will pass in time...

It will pass in time, I promise, E. It was hard for me at first, too, not to let my mind go to some dark places when my husband and I were being intimate together. As suggested by MWD in her books...when your mind goes there, just imagine a huge red STOP sign. I assure you, this helps.

Hugs to you...you are doing great. Just keep taking things one day at a time.

[aeolianchaos]

I'd rather hear it all from H) should emotionally unstable ex-ow try to contact me again.

Hadn't thought of that. Good call.

Btw, I'm still trying to find the time to read your sitch, aeoli. As you can certainly and unfortunately understand, I've been a bit preoccupied,

No worries! You've got a lot on your plate. Not much new going on anyways (the quiet before the storm? I hope not..)

[Valeska19]

E,
First off I want to say that you are showing some amazing strength woman. You're like a rope. A rope is comprised of many many strands. The more strands you add, the stronger the rope becomes. You are being tested but each time you rise above it.. you add another strand.

I want to talk about your daughter, but I feel I need to share some of my story in order to explain so forgive the rant. This is truly not a sad story about Val and her personal bullsh!t.

I was 9 years old. One day.. my dad and eldest sister decided on the same day to "quit" our family. They packed up and left leaving me with my mom and my older sister.

I remember it very clearly (as my present sitch of my w "quitting our family", has brought up alot of emotions). I cried. My mom did her best to show my father in a positive light. Reminding me that he just needed space, that he loved me and wasn't quitting me, just needed to figure things out. I know she meant well but I felt betrayed. I felt abandoned. I spent many nights crying myself to sleep in the bottom of my closet. I never was close with either my dad or my eldest sister. My dad beat my mom so them being separated was probably a good thing..but i still felt rejected.

A few months later I started acting out at school. If I was picked on in any way.. I beat the crap out of that person. My mom got me into counseling. I started taking anger management classes to try to deal with this anger. My mom still continued to say those same things about him loving me. They were like pouring gasoline on a fire.

My dad came to visit. He still paid all of the bills, and made an effort to stay connected. Each time he left, I went back to my closet to cry. Each visit was a reminder that his needs and wants were more important than mine.

9 months later, my dad came back. He wanted to be part of our family again. I wanted nothing to do with him. I wanted my mom to divorce him. NOW he decided we were worth it?? NOW after all the pain??

Fvck that! fvck him! I hated him. After 9 months, I had no desire to have any kind of relationship with him. I was disgusted with attempts to move forward. His attempts to gain my love or my forgiveness. It all felt fake to me.

My mom kept me in counseling. But now instead of dealing with my anger, my counselor and mom were trying to get me to forgive my dad. That he was back and trying and I now had a second chance.. yada yada yada.. Man I wanted to puke. Why did I have to put in the work? It wasn't me that left him. Why should he get a 2nd chance? To beat my mom? to leave again? Why should I be anything but angry? At least I was safe in my anger.

So I decided that day to stay angry. I decided that day to never forgive him.

BTW- I'm 29 years old (soon) and I still have not forgiven my father. I'm really looking at myself now in the hopes that I can but GD do I have alot of wounds. They aren't even scars because I never let them fully heal.

I don't tell you this so you can get angry at OW. I also don't tell you this for to get angry at your H (although he will have to deal with the consequences of his actions). You read my sitch, so hopefully you know that I try to take a loving approach in everything I say.

I tell you this to maybe give you some insight to how your D16 MIGHT be feeling. She's sounds angry and says alot of things that I did. Off of the last few posts, she reminds me of me.

Your H decided to do something awful to you and your family and NOW he decides to show remorse. We as adults struggle to forgive.. how do we expect a child to??

I think it's good that your honest with her.. however I also believe that your DB tactics could be useful.

D16 is continuing to avoid H and has expressed that if it was her, she would chose to NOT stay in the marriage. I told her that these situations are complicated and that I'd been doing a lot of intensive reading on the subject so I'm simply not going to make any rash decisions.

.

How about just allowing her to express ALL of her feelings and validating & Listening? She has a valid point and I could very easily see her getting defensive or maybe even angrier because you are saying something other than what she is feeling.

Treat it like a R in the way that you are not pushing your thoughts on her, No pursuing of D for you or your H. Be there when she needs you but give her space to figure sh!t out in her head.

I'm not trying to tell you how to be a parent. I have no idea.. so please PLEASE don't take it this way.

I'm just saying the what you said, my mom said to me.. and it added fuel to my fire. I don't wish that my mom said my dad was an A$$hole for leaving the family... I just felt like she was always excusing him. Excusing him meant that he was right and my feelings were wrong. I realize now that wasn't what she was doing completely, but at the time I was a kid and that was my perspective.

Your daughter loves you and her brother very much. That's where a huge part of her anger is coming from. If she isn't expressing her own feelings, it may mean she is trying to create a wall to protect herself. Once that wall is built, it is extremely hard to break.

Keep working on yourself and on forgiving your H. Continue to be there for your children and you'll get through it.

Can I also just reiterate again that I am not giving parenting advice???? Just a little perspective from a person who walked in your daughter's shoes. If I have overstepped, I apologize.

[jbnati]

I think we may have...I mentioned in a previous post that I found a pro-marriage in our area...well, coincidently H contacted her back in mid-August and has been receiving her weekly newsletters (as have I).

That's interesting. At least you two are in agreement with one you're going to start with.

Yeah, I admit I'm worried. I'm afraid she's going to out their A all over the place and damage our family even more. Time will tell just how crazy she is I suppose...

NOTE - She gets a minimum of two crazy smilies any time I mention her. Seriously I really hope she backs off over time. You are already wary of her, so I am not going to beat a dead horse here.

D16 is continuing to avoid H and has expressed that if it was her, she would chose to NOT stay in the marriage. I told her that these situations are complicated and that I'd been doing a lot of intensive reading on the subject so I'm simply not going to make any rash decisions. I absolutely hate that ow has involved my children but there's no changing that fact at this point, so now we're left to deal with the ramifications.

D16 has also mentioned that if it was up to her, she would want H to move out right now. However, she does not want her little brother to suffer so she does not want me to make that decision based on her feelings. I appreciate that she's being as mature about this as possible, given such a complicated conundrum.

I think I'm going to take a little of 25 on this one and a little of Val. I think you're recognizing this - but this way too much responsibility for a 16 year old to have input on. I agree with Val that she does need to feel these emotions. I don't think it's easy on kids of any age. I lived through it as a 13 year old myself.

And we have both agreed to Retrovaille so that is hopeful. H said he's going to register us this week. (We shall see if he follows through).

This sounds good. FWIW, I have this gut feeling he's going to follow through on registering.

All that said, the feelings of disgust I am having towards the thought of H touching me are deeply disturbing me though. I assuming they will pass in time...

I can only imagine. I don't have any experience in this myself, but I do believe some time will help to heal this.

As I been doing - big hugs to you, E. ((((()))))

[25yearsmlc]

Val,

That's a powerful story...
if your point in telling the story of your pain and how you still have not forgiven your father and all the wounds are still raw & oozing, haven't even formed scars yet...

is to get endeavor to allow her d to express HER feelings, I say "amen".

You clearly were not heard when you felt your rage and pain and it didn't go well for you. Or perhaps your pain was too much, added to your mothers, for her to handle...plus you had an eldest sister getting chosen over you as well. IDK....

Otherwise, i think it's a great example of why her d ought to get help to do exactly what you are now hoping to do, which is to learn to let go, b/c if her d holds onto her pain as you have
then that's compounding the tragedy
BUT THAT IS NOT HER H'S FAULT....not that part of this...


Unlike your father, this man did not leave his family, or take just ONE child, and he didn't take 9 months to decide to come back. Her d's feelings are hardly being suppressed. Heck a piece of me wants to tell her to stop making this about HER and making it harder on her brother and mother...

does this girl really want the responsibility for preventing a reconciliation? I think her brother might resent the hell out of her for that, when he figures things out...and so might her mom and for sure her dad will.

I worry--

just wallowing in her rage and encouraging THAT "oh just justifiable anger"---instead of working through it, ----could ruin her R's with every member of her family...

His remorse was immediate and he also began contacting a pro m MC before the OW discovery.

I don't see many similarities between your sitch and hers, other than a man wanted out.

Your dad left, took ONE kid, didn't explain anything to you, you certainly weren't heard, you were told a story about your father you didn't believe, and he took 9 months to return...

Sorry but I don't see it... I worry about projections....(no offense meant),

Val, you have made great progress here. But I think you just hit on THE underlying issue of your life...and it's not necessarily applicable to her d and frankly, I'm wondering when we are going to ask her daughter to stop having a rage a thon...

Her father is a human and he's flawed.

Realizing our parents are not infallible is a painful step in the process known as "growing up." But it's a step we all have to take.

We all experienced it, some earlier than others...some more traumatically.

I know she's hurt. Hello, I had the same issue (presented less dramatically but lasting longer) with a d that exact age. She was wounded, no question.

But never in a million years would SHE tell ME what to do in this sitch, nor would I want her to...

(and there's another child to consider. HE loves his dad)

When we discussed moving, we involved a counselor to help the kids adjust b/c THAT move was not mandatory as h was no longer in the military.

It meant a lot to the kids to have a discussion with a 3rd party, to know they were truly heard...BUT a valuable lesson they learned was when they'd expressed their fears and desires, and then

the Counselor told the kids:

"your parents want and value your input, which is why you are all here.

But this family is not a democracy where you each have the same power/responsiblility as a parent. You do not have an equal vote in big decisions like this. These are adult choices to be made by adults..."


That discussion centered around a move. THIS decision of endeavors is about her marriage to her h and the father of her children.

Exactly what can her h do NOW, that he isn't already doing? Get a hair shirt?


I keep hearing all over this site that marriages can survive A's....and we ought to open our hearts and minds to forgiveness

especially when we see remorse and change on our partner's part...

Why doesn't that apply to THIS man?

OBVIOUSLY this is Up to endeavor of course, (She can do what she wants & I'll support HER choice)

but I fear we're losing sight of what HE is doing to help things...

and it's pretty much everything possible...

This OW is nuttier than most and that's unfortunate. OTOH he wasn't in love with her

and he wanted out of the A before he got caught...(another distinction between Val's dad and Endeavor's h)


Yes, Sadly, the kids heard OW's craziness and evil and they've been more exposed than most.

But Why does that make this a complete dealbreaker??

(and What does THAT teach them?)

Why does her h gets more punishment than other adulterers? Val, you were willing to forgive your w's infidelities or other things, and your m was shorter and there are no children.

Is this man to be punished more B/c the kids know?

See, I don't get that.

[Kalni]

Hi,
I just came across your posts; I want to comment on a few things that caught my attention and hopefully can help you a bit. I have been where you are. We are now together with my H.

First of all, I am sorry. I feel your pain and I am especially sorry for your kids. I cant even imagine how they feel, your D in particular who can grasp the meaning of an A better than your son but at the same time, is still too young to process it. Your behavior will be closely monitored and you can help her deal with it. If she cant go to a C now, you talk to someone to get some advice on how to handle this.

I can understand the shock you are in, after the exposure of the A. What I read in one of your posts that you never expected this from him or no one close to you believed his was the type of a man to have A, put a sad smile on my face. You were describing my feelings and H’s “type”.

As I have come to believe, we are all vulnerable to mistakes of this type, and it’s all a matter of circumstances, opportunities and timing. Of course some of us are smarter/alert/stronger than others and at a possible crucial time don’t fall easily to the trap of the “easy living”, “hot sex” and brain chemicals that boost our ego and cover our deficiencies as partners and humans. But some, only see the true colors of this type of escapes after they have felt the consequences. Others never admit their choices were stupid.

You said an A was for you a deal breaker. I respect such an opinion. On the other hand, I am sorry to say that I believe that 99% of the stories here involve another person. And I don’t say that because I want to feel I belong to a large group, I tried my best to deny that, I say it because I believe it is true, sadly. Read thread after thread and you will see it for yourself... And people do reconcile after an A. They can.

When we come here and read others’ threads we feel sorry for those dealing with As, we don’t “know how they are doing it” we want to urge them to cut their losses, etc etc… Then 99% of us, are hit by the reality of our Ss’ affair whether emotional or physical or both, and realize we are no exception. Then we need the time to admit we are one of “those” couples. I admit I was naive, held my H very high, and was blind to the signs and truth. I only found out of the affair after I was strong enough to look for it and listen to my little voice and after one year of back and forths due to H’s inability to disengage from her.

Irrelevant to the real problems, if posters care to “save” their M they will have to deal with the issue of an A. You can choose not to. But remember, your statement, mental and here, about the A being a deal breaker, was made when you thought your H wasn’t capable of one. Do not feel obliged to follow through if you have feelings for your husband. As my own H said to me : “don’t correct my mistake with another bigger one”. Take your time. Time is really on your side.

I wanted to know details too. I am one of “those” too. And now is the time you can ask questions. As time goes by and if you decide to reconcile, your H’s natural response will be to try to “forget” all that. Ask now and listen. Don’t attack. You will get more answers. No pride, no rules, nothings applies-expect keeping it civilized. Ask anything you feel you need to learn. Avoid anything that you can live without. That is the golden rule. Do that outside your home. You don’t want the kids to overhear anything else. Their radars are sensitive and will be watching…

Your H’s remorse, actions and reactions these last few days, are quite remarkable. Honestly, after 3 years here, I haven’t seen many WAS reacting like this in similar occasions. I know it doesn’t make much difference for you now but believe me, if he didn’t react the way he is, it would have been sooooo much harder (cant imagine that, but trust me, it can get harder) for you. The way he handles OW leaves me no doubt he is sincere about what he feels for her. As you can imagine I am extremely sensitive about infidelity and still your H actions these last days made me feel compassion about him.

Remorse and guilt are 2 different things. I trust remorse and your H seems to really regret his actions. The crazy OW, only strengthens his opinion that he did a terrible mistake and that all is in favor of your M if you decide to work on it.

Piecing and overcoming infidelity are the hardest things I ever had to do. I am still working hard to let go of the pain. Unfortunately, some things lost are difficult to recover and some will never come back. It takes patience, strength, control of your thoughts/triggers etc etc but the result is the greatest example you can give your kids of how you fight for something so precious. And I find this kind of love, the realistic, hard gained love to be true love. True love conquers everything and if you do love your H and he loves you, you can be that.

If I can help in any way in particular, let me know. Take for granted that I have felt how you feel and I am still in the process of healing...
Stay strong
Kalni

[Kalni]

Oh, and I am not a native speaker so fogive my mistakes...
K

[kml]

Kalni is right - your H is one of the better ones in terms of showing evidence of true remorse. And, I have seen, that where the OW is batchit crazy, it sometimes tends to make it easier for the WAS to see the error of their ways!

You have a real chance at a good reconciliation. Don't forget to look inside and do your own work too on fixing your contribution to this marriage.

As for your daughter - she feels as though SHE has been cheated on too. It's a fine line, letting her express her feelings while still trying to help her see a more compassionate and less black-and-white view of human behavior.

[Valeska19]

E,
Sorry. I did think for a minute after posting that I wish I could delete it. I was afraid of "projecting" and that is not my intent. I will briefly (try my best) to answer below and then leave it alone. This is your journey. I know you will make the best decisions for you and your family.

if your point in telling the story of your pain and how you still have not forgiven your father and all the wounds are still raw & oozing, haven't even formed scars yet...

is to get endeavor to allow her d to express HER feelings, I say "amen".

Yes it was a good chuck of my intent and well as maybe provide some insight. I wish I could have consolidated and got to the point, but I have a hard time at that.

Otherwise, i think it's a great example of why her d ought to get help to do exactly what you are now hoping to do, which is to learn to let go, b/c if her d holds onto her pain as you have then that's compounding the tragedy
BUT THAT IS NOT HER H'S FAULT....not that part of this...

Exactly. I was not saying that her D shouldn't get help. I think counseling is wonderful and I hope from the depths of my heart that she does NOT follow in my footsteps.

I worry--

just wallowing in her rage and encouraging THAT "oh just justifiable anger"---instead of working through it, ----could ruin her R's with every member of her family...

Agreed completely!

I don't see many similarities between your sitch and hers, other than a man wanted out.

I'm not saying the sitch is similar... only that the feelings are. My nephews just started living with my sister. Dad was an alcoholic. Sitches are completely different but they are still feeling abandonment, rejection, anger. I was just using my story to explain why I felt those things. Again.. I probably just could have cut to the point.

Your dad left, took ONE kid, didn't explain anything to you, you certainly weren't heard, you were told a story about your father you didn't believe, and he took 9 months to return...

Understood. Small note. He didn't take my sister. My sister just decided to walk out too. Not really important here.. but thought I would clarify.

Sorry but I don't see it... I worry about projections....(no offense meant).

None taken at all. Like I said I don't want to project.

Val, you have made great progress here. But I think you just hit on THE underlying issue of your life...and it's not necessarily applicable to her d and frankly, I'm wondering when we are going to ask her daughter to stop having a rage a thon...

That's fine. I'm not saying that I am her D at all or the situations are similiar. Again it's just my journey that I felt compelled to share. We hear stories from LBS, WAS, and pull from them what is relevant in our current life. How often do we hear from the people who were children of these tragedies? If my story helps E get a better understanding of a child's feelings.. great. If it helps her D forgive.. even better. If it's non-relevant at all, that's cool too.

However it's only been a week. She needs time don't you think? I don't know too many of us who was able to stop the anger after one wk. I'm not saying it shouldn't stop.. I just think we need to take some of the grace we are showing to H and show it to D as well. I don't think you are saying not to show her grace. For some reason I'm just feeling that we need to change D's perspective and get her to forgive vs. seeing both sides of the coin. Like we are jumping straight to forgiveness w/o going through all the other steps. Again I think this is my perception.

I keep hearing all over this site that marriages can survive A's....and we ought to open our hearts and minds to forgiveness

especially when we see remorse and change on our partner's part...

Why doesn't that apply to THIS man?

OBVIOUSLY this is Up to endeavor of course, (She can do what she wants & I'll support HER choice)

but I fear we're losing sight of what HE is doing to help things...

and it's pretty much everything possible...

This OW is nuttier than most and that's unfortunate. OTOH he wasn't in love with her

and he wanted out of the A before he got caught...(another distinction between Val's dad and Endeavor's h)


Yes, Sadly, the kids heard OW's craziness and evil and they've been more exposed than most.

But Why does that make this a complete dealbreaker??

(and What does THAT teach them?)

Why does her h gets more punishment than other adulterers? Val, you were willing to forgive your w's infidelities or other things, and your m was shorter and there are no children.

Is this man to be punished more B/c the kids know?

See, I don't get that.

I didn't speak much about the H at all. My post was purely about D. I am curious why you think I am saying that 25?? Honestly that comment about me being married less with no kids stung. But that is something that we can perhaps discuss on my sitch.

E - I have posted before about forgiving your H and I haven't changed my mind. I think we all need to forgive. Ourselves, the people who wrong us.

This website has changed my opinion about working through marital problems and affairs.. so if you can do it, awesome!

I don't think you should show your H any less grace than you are currently.

I'm not saying that he should be treated any different than any other adulterer we talk about. If it came across that way I apologize.


Thank you 25 for taking the time to make sure E didn't pull anything from my sitch that could hurt her with her sitch. That would have been truly sad.

[Redo]

E,

Oh man, now i recall about telling you about the NUTs book. Glad it made a difference to him. Definitely did to me.

Have to say something out of my own experience. If your H read that book and said it made a difference, it means that he has lot of issues he need to work on himself first...even before he thinks about family. If you are planning on reconciling, then make sure he does this.

See i had childhood issues that i brought into my marriage. My parents never got along. So i ended up always feeling like a victim, depressed yada yada. Since we got married really early, i never really got a chance to work on myself. Yup, my wife and i had been to lot of MC, but somehow they never really got to the core. I do see some similarity with what you H did. Only difference was that i turned my energies into my hobbies and getting depressed. I guess it is only after W filed for D, i really took a good look at myself and started working on myself.

Your husband first has to find himself. Only then he will let go of his issues, his victimhood and become a strong man who knows what he wants, has his integrity and principles and sticks by them. With that he gains confidence in himself which will allow him to be a great dad and great husband.

If you think he has some childhood issues, then don;t neglect them because right now he is remorseful and things might be okay. But he might slip back into old habits(i know i used to. Because i was too scared to face my issues).

Again, this is just my POV.

Hang in there.