Got an apology from XH. Need advice now.

[AloneAt35]

Antonia!

This post is a bit off-topic but...

I feel so guilty for reading your card reading with such interest - I actually get a rush!!! I gave up my horoscope, tarot cards, computer Magic 8 ball, etc. when I got seriously into my prayer life...but oh how I miss them! The Bible talks about casting "divine lots" and such...so really, is reading my horoscope anything more than a bit of harmless fun...????? But true, I should be spending that time and attention on the Lord I suppose.

Did a Yes/No reading right after Ex-P went AWOL...so far it hasn't panned out, or else I'm just behind schedule. Then I gave it up...sigh...

Well, anyways, I HOPE that your reading comes true, true, true!!!

I am a newbie, but I would actually relish the types of interactions you are having with your EX-H...mine just vanished, poof, gone. Like he never existed. (Very painful.)

I am not familiar with your full sitch, but it seems like the contact with your Ex-H has really increased, no?

You know what I think. In some way, he misses you. Clearly, he misses your friendship. What's that all about?...

I'm glad he at least has the courtesy not to bring OW into your discussions, I think that is a good sign actually. It means he doesn't want to jeopardize the contact he's having with you by upsetting you in any way. He is going out of his way to NOT talk about her...which means he values contact with you.

[TAMF]

tarot reading was very interesting, I was dying to find out what the cards said! I mean, it is fun. can't take it for anything more than that, but sometimes it is WEIRD. crazy dead-on weird. back in October i went to vegas with my bffs from High school and college - I got a tarot card reading from an american indian girl and she was so completely dead-on that I started to cry.

she didn't know me at all. I was already separated from my STBXH but still very much in love with him. I didn't have my wedding ring on any more. I went in and didn't say a single word! she has me cut the cards and then she placed them all out on the table. The very first thing she says to me?!

you are in love with someone who is with someone else.
this man you love is mentally sick, there is something wrong with him.
this woman he is with is much younger than he is.

(btw, still haven't said anything)

she went on to describe my personality (I haven't said anything to this woman except my name!) and she described me to a tee! then she went on to describe my STBXH to a tee!

she kept going back to him and saying "he is a mess...you need to leave him alone. he is a mess." then she asked if any of this made sense and I said that it was my husband. she said, he is having an affair. It won't last but it will continue for a while. you need to leave him alone he is a mess.

THEN she said that I was going to meet someone else. (i thought, yeah right, whatever!) she said he has a lot of the same characteristics as my STBXH but better. you are going to fall hard an quick. THis is the real love of your life. he has light eyes, very kind. and facail hair, like a goatee. She said that it wasn't clear if I get back with STBXH because this new love I find is going to change me. but then she pulled the last card and it was a card of regret! she said you STBXH will regret what he has done so much. but you might not care anymore.

at that time, I thought, i won't meet anyone! only my H is for me!

btw, I met this man she described.

we are not together.

I had totally forgotten about the tarot card reading I got way back in vegas, then your post reminded me.

crazy dead-on wierd!

[beatrice]

Hi Antonia - ummm don't take the Tarot too seriously.

I have come to see that our xh's are extremely immature. I mean really really immature. Now I totally get this it makes it so much easier to understand.

They are just not behaving like grown ups. Look at your interactions with your xh . . . . he wants a relationship with you, clearly hasn't let go the rope, but doesn't know what he wants, and can't be bothered/hasn't developed the life skills to try and work it out.

I see this now so clearly in my interchanges with my xh. So much posturing and insincerity. Your xh telling you about his vacation when you KNOW he was there with OW, and his'pretending'. He would say it was so you weren't hurt I expect. but really if that is the case he would simply stay away from you. But no . . . . childish and exhausting.

[ericmsant2]

Antonia

The one thing I would say is that based on what I have read and seen on these boards that any reconciliation starts slows and starts as just friends. That said, I do not think it make any sense for you to try and read into anything that he sends you via email. Take a step back and realize that maybe he is just being friendly with you. After all, how many years did you guys spend together….. Maybe he is just speaking to you as the person that he spent a large part of his life with. Maybe he just feels comfortable being able to email you. I suspect that he does not bring up OW because he does not want to hurt you. Maybe he just feels comfortable talking or emailing you.

IF (and that is a big IF) you feel comfortable in the role of “friends” (however you want to define it) and HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS, the I would say…YOU decide if you feel like responding.

I am a little concerned that he suddenly DOES start talking about her...I mean, I'm in a place where I can talk to him, but I'm not in THAT good of a place, if you know what I mean.

I get what you mean Antonia. That said, part of true acceptance IMO, is being able to accept and understand that he where he is in his life and YOU are where YOU are in your life.

Also, consider this….any future R with your XH would need to be a NEW R and IMO, healthy R’s start as just friends.

A few other points….

1) What he does or does not DO should NOT (let me repeat NOT) determine what you do or do not do in your life.
2) Another point – “BOUNDARIES”……YOU Antonia must define what YOUR boundaries are. Do you want him to email you while OW is in the picture? Do you feel like the OW now? If so, is that how you want to feel?
3) Can you look at him as EXACTLY what he is – YOUR XH? Nothing more nothing less.
4) I just posted this on another thread but will repeat it to YOU……Aretha Franklin baby! RESPECT……. What does it mean to YOU?

In the end Antonia, this R with your XH is defined by YOU as is any other R.

A few questions……as usual the answers are for YOU.

1) Are you still trying to get your H back?
2) If so, at what cost?
3) Are you okay with YOU right now?
4) Do you really like who you have become and does what he brings to the table (whatever that may be)…line up with who YOU are – RIGHT NOW?
5) Do you think that you are settling with what is comfortable or known?
6) Do you love him enough…..no….do you LOVE YOURSELF enough – RIGHT NOW….to do what YOU need to do for YOU.
7) Can you honestly say to yourself…F him?

I am not telling you what to do. You must do what you think it is best for you.

Piecing is hard and IMO, cannot be done with someone else in the picture.

Finally, do YOU ANTONIA, professor, cat lover, cook, super women who is always fixing chit around the house, do YOU Antonia…..want to be WANTED or NEEDED?

I do not envy your position right now…that said, I have the utmost confidence that you will end up doing what is best for you. As for me, as your friend, I will support whatever it is that you decide to do.

God Bless,
Eric

[beatrice]

Eric - your advice is good, but you tend sometimes to overlook that MLCers are not rational. They really are not, trust me on that. I have some contact with my xh and so do some other friends with MLCers. They will do one thing one minute, and the next they are off somewhere else.

They act from emotion rather than reason, and they are amazingly immature. There is usually an agenda. Boundaries are important, I agree, for us. They are not recognised by the MLCer as they have little sense of what is and is not appropriate

Piecing, as I understand it, is quite a way down the reconciliation line. The MLcer reaches out a long time before that stage is reached. And it is slow.

He may not be reaching out - it doesn't matter in one sense. But simple friendship isn't usually what a MLCer has in mind, I am fairly sure!

[ericmsant2]

Beatrice,

but you tend sometimes to overlook that MLCers are not rational

I agree with you 100% on this. That said it is us, the LBS that determine what we do and when we do it. That is my point to Antonia. She needs to do what SHE needs to do for HER. Every stich is different...what is not different are healthy boundaries. Boundaries are defined by the LBS - not the MLCer.

They are not recognised by the MLCer as they have little sense of what is and is not appropriate

They do not have to be recognised by the MLCer...they must though be ENFORCED by the LBSer...for the LBSer emotional health.

So from where I sit, Antoina is the one in control - NOT her H.

Piecing, as I understand it, is quite a way down the reconciliation line. The MLcer reaches out a long time before that stage is reached. And it is slow.

Agreed but at the same time every sitch is different. I have no idea if her H is reaching out...what I do know is that IF SHE DECIDEDS to leave that door open...well then Antonia must also DECIDED how it is left open. Slow...hmmm...define slow.

But simple friendship isn't usually what a MLCer has in mind, I am fairly sure!

"Usually" does not mean NEVER though...and this is what Antonia will need to figure out.

God Bless,
Eric

[AntoniaB]

Wow, you guys have all been so helpful today!!!

I decided that XH's email this a.m. will go unanswered. Sure he asked some little questions in there about did I see such and such a news item, and he told me more about his life and past few months, but that's nothing I "have" to comment on. I think GAG might have been the one to say that you don't always have to answer everything they throw at you and Beatrice you probably said that too.

I think that a little contact is ok...and I'm very glad that we are on "speaking terms" again should anything crazy happen to either of us...I wanted us to be ok and not still in this stalemate.

And I do have this perverse happiness about the idea that he is hiding these emails from OW...because of course I don't give a rat's a*s what happens to her or how bad SHE gets hurt after what she did to facilitate destroying our marriage ;-) But I do think that getting too friendly with him might be playing with fire and of course, letting him have something he hasn't earned--which is my friendship. Friends don't betray one another and say it's for the greater good, "the ends justify the means", and that's STILL his position.

Just because I kick serious butt and got my life together better than I have ever had it in the wake of his path of destruction doesn't mean he gets to take credit for making me "happier" with his betrayal. I made MYSELF happier.

I don't want to shut the door on him for good...who knows, he may go through a serious change himself like I did and really understand that adultery is always wrong. But I think I let myself get too wrapped up in those emails--since that was a whole new thing to experience--and, lesson learned. I won't let that happen again.

[beatrice]

Antonia, I have been thinking a bit about your xh and recent interactions. There seem to be two ways in which MLcers typically behave, once they are 'settled' in MLC, that is when the initial disturbance and the speech and stuff is over [which can take time] And some MLcers do both, and alternate, which is confusing,

There is the mean angry and distant type [some combination of this] - they often spew a lot and they largely keep away. Then there are the ones who want to be friends, and have us in their life. I think you have the 'people pleaser' type who "wants to be friends"

This is of course, friendship on their terms, to make them feel good. I do not doubt that he misses you and is reaching out to you - even the spewers do that, in their own way.

But these MLcers are not rational. They are not thinking straight, and the process of starting to think straight is a long one. They are driven mostly be their emotions, and what they think they want at any given time. And you xh likes attention, and interaction from you. He likes, I suspect, to feel good about himself as a person 'i am not such a bad guy'.

FWIW I do think he is reaching out to you, but he isn't done yet, and has a way to go. I would be consistent in your interactions with him, distant, friendly and detached. If he is nice, thank him, and ignore bad behaviour. There is no need to shut the door unless this is either upsetting you, or impeding your journey onward.

In general I have found learning to interact with my xh to be useful for me. He is no longer the bogeyman, but a sad and damaged human being who needs to grow up [Just MO!] If he gets to me, I vent to a friend, or here, and back off for a little. I see him more and more clearly as I interact calmly and on my terms

We need to do what is good for us in our overall game plan of life, not what others tell us we should do, so feel free to disregard this advice!

[AloneAt35]

Antonia, my dad said the craziest thing. I wonder if there is any insight to it. He said, 'When a man lets you go, he always likes to keep the leash on. He doesn't care how long the leash gets, so long as your still wearing it."

It made me think...is that true? If so, how sick is that?

I've read your entire sitch from the archives. I'd hate to think your Ex-H could EVER take credit for the positive changes you've made in rebuilding your life and psyche. THAT would be SICK. Downright perverse.

But yeah, I'm sure the OW wouldn't be pleased with his desire for a friendship with you. I suppose there is some satisfaction in that because it means something is missing between them...even if its just the comfort of a shared history that can never be replaced.

I have a feeling that your life is so satisfyingly busy that you won't have time to respond to all of his messages anyway.

[AntoniaB]

Beatrice I think you have it right about his people pleaser persona. In the very short time he did go to therapy when we were first separated, his IC said he was a pleaser and had been from early childhood as the second kid in an abusive home sitch where his brother was routinely terrorized in front of him. He learned to do whatever the strong force in his life wanted (his mother). When he met me he loved that I was SO opposite her. In fact, he said that the day he left long term GF #1 was the day he realized she and his mom were "perfect" for each other. She and I clashed remarkably. I was his protector from her.

His IC said that as the daughter of parents who were extremely pushy to be "perfect" and high achieving but also very codependent on them for praise, that I turned this on him--I was highly ambitious and he was not, and he then became a support figure to me while also feeding my codependence that he would face anything I didn't. Eventually I became like his mother I guess. So then he leaves for someone he says is "completely independent and doesn't need him." But if he's following her around to all her performances and being her escort while he still doesn't get his own life, then she is using him too, and he's now pleasing her, and ironically, he's still trying to please me. I can sense so much that he wants me to tell him he did the right thing--because it gave him "new experiences" (rather SHE did), AND because it also broke me so apart that I had to become a different person/a better one to survive.

All this stuff from childhood that this IC very astutely identified is why I have a hard time believing that he can ever change. I mean, I did, but I had to lose everything to change, and I have always been much more open to asking for others to help and helping myself. That's not who he is. And this is why I feel sorry for him, truly sorry, that he may never have the tools to overcome this stuff. This is why I still try to help him (i.e. telling him how beneficial meditation has been for me hoping he'll get interested and inquire).

And Alone, wow I bet it was a novel to read the whole sitch ;-) I think what your dad said is true---he doesn't want me but he's also made comments that sound like he'd be jealous if someone else wanted me. I've actually said to him before, don't take any credit for my progress, don't tell yourself that the affair was the right thing to do just because I am a better person now. His response is always "I'd never say or think that." But I do thinkn that he wants to lower his guilt, and if he can tell himself that his ex-wife is doing beautifully, and that he's had some "great opportunities" or whatever, it's a way he rationalizes what he did. Same thing with my now speaking to him. I do think I'm letting him (his guilt) off the hook a little by talking to him as opposed to blocking him out forever.

HOWEVER, I did feel a lot less burdened in a weird way when I started to talk to him; I felt like it was moving me toward accepting a sitch that I can't control, where shutting him out was a way of avoiding it/unacceptance. So it's good for me to be in some contact, but for him? Yeah. It's probably lessening his guilt a bit. But really I guess I shouldn't worry about that. It's not my job to deliver his karma to him. That's what I keep saying to myself. Not my job.

I think when it all comes down to it, maybe his karma will come the first time that he has a truly awful fight with OW and knows that an hour away is his XW, who is not bearing a grudge, who is kind and forgiving, and who has fought most of her demons from the past and emerged the type of person he would have wanted to be married to, and who he voluntarily walked away from.