Walking in Muskeg - Part IV - Squishy Rubber Boots

[beatrice]

Interesting that so many people think you are angry - I accept that you are not, we know ourselves best.

What i don't really get any sense of, is what you want at this point in time. Do you want your husband back? If not, and the marriage wasn't that great, then surely it is better to find that out now than later? Or do you want your husband to change? Real change takes a lot of time to work through.

Is there anything your husband could do? I get along much better with my xh post divorce as he trundles merrily through his MLC. Or remains stuck. Hard to know at this point.

As to dating: I found friends to do stuff with in unlikely places. Old friends stepped up to the mark, new friends emerged. You do not have to date to find people to do stuff with, except perhaps romantic dinners!

I am sorry you feel helpless and hopeless though. That is such a painful way to feel. You are of course a capable, intelligent and strong minded woman.

It is never too late for anything. Just believe me and others on this. We could all be wrong, but i do not think we are.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Interesting that so many people think you are angry - I accept that you are not, we know ourselves best.

What i don't really get any sense of, is what you want at this point in time. Do you want your husband back? If not, and the marriage wasn't that great, then surely it is better to find that out now than later? Or do you want your husband to change? Real change takes a lot of time to work through.

Ideally, yes I want my STBX back. We had our problems especially communicatively, but I did not and do not see them as insoluble.
In my analysis,it would require change from him as well. I am willing to facilitate progress in that direction in any way I can and he is aware of that.

However, my POV really matters little here. STBX appears to believe any problems we did/do have are not solvable and he's not willing to work with me on recovering or improving our relationship. I can only dance alone to the music in my head for so long and my feet are bloody.

In my perception, STBX tolerates contact with me because of our children, not out of loyalty, or past/present regard for me, or any good feeling about our M.
He is polite, and sometimes ( see previous threads) crazily generous.

Is there anything your husband could do? I get along much better with my xh post divorce as he trundles merrily through his MLC. Or remains stuck. Hard to know at this point.

Yes there is something he could do. He chooses not to do it. On some level I sense a pride/reluctance to ask for or reach out for help. He appears to want to do it all by himself without professional guidance, or even research to obtain new tools. (IE. reading any self help books.)

As to dating: I found friends to do stuff with in unlikely places. Old friends stepped up to the mark, new friends emerged. You do not have to date to find people to do stuff with, except perhaps romantic dinners!

I am sorry you feel helpless and hopeless though. That is such a painful way to feel. You are of course a capable, intelligent and strong minded woman.

It is never too late for anything. Just believe me and others on this. We could all be wrong, but i do not think we are.

The intellectual side of me knows unlikely opportunities exist, but are fairly rare, and to grasp them requires faith and fearlessness.


Right now I have neither.

If it were only about me, and I didn't have other considerations perhaps at least I'd be willing to take more risks, but I have other people reliant on me and their lives will be even more changed by that. I won't gamble with their futures.

Thanks for your exchange with me Beatrice, I am grateful for the feedback and questions. It has helped me slow down get my thoughts in order.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Well, last night I bit the bullet.
I told the STBX to get himself a lawyer. I have one.
I can't do limbo anymore.

I love him, but I can't help him or change his mind.
I love him, enough to wish him well, but not enough to remain his wife in name only.

[seeking answers]

QoS,

What was your H's reaction to your statement?

How are you feeling about it today?

[Queen_of_Swords]

His reaction?

Shock. He teared up, got emotional, while I was not.
Said he wasn't making anyone happy, least of all himself, and decided to enroll in the program I am doing.

I think he realized I'm not going to wait anymore.
I am prepared to sever our marital ties.
I love him, I always will, but if he isn't absolutely crazy about me, doesn't love me for me, it's not enough.

[Queen_of_Swords]

Update - Journaling

Nothing much new since Wednesday night.

He came to pick up the kids for visitation Friday, we had a brief discussion about kids' school fees, financial roadblocks, parent teacher interviews, and my work schedule. He made a comment about how he is watching a good friend of his try to fill his emptiness with alcohol, and how he realizes he is on a similar path, but not using alcohol.
I offered a hug, he accepted.

I am feeling curiously insulated and set apart from the goings on in my life right now. I still care, but it's almost as if I'm an observer not actually a participant.

It seems once I let the words I wrote fall from my lips , everything within me changed.

[ericmsant2]

Queen
I am not going to say that you are angry but I wanted to point out what I see in your post.
Before I continue please take a look at the quote below…

We had our problems especially communicatively

Now take a look at this….

but I did not and do not see them as insoluble.

In my analysis,it would require change from him as well

I am willing to facilitate progress in that direction in any way I can and he is aware of that

I can only dance alone to the music

In my perception, STBX tolerates contact with me because of our children

On some level I sense a pride/reluctance to ask for or reach out for help

I, me, you, what you want, when you want, how you want. That is what I see in your quotes. Read them, read them carefully. Look at the way you refer to HIM. It seems like you are pissed because he is not doing what YOU tell him to do. He is NOT……AT LEAST RIGHT NOW….and MAYBE NEVER but do you always have to get your way?

However, my POV really matters little here

I would disagree….YOUR POV is all that matters RIGHT NOW….. At least that is what your posts say to me.

He appears to want to do it all by himself without professional guidance

You are probably RIGHT…HE wants to do it by himself. HE WANTS control over HIS life. Can you see how it appears that everything is NOT done on YOUR timeline, the way YOU want it done. IMO, this is the “communication” issue that you talk about. So have YOU resolved YOUR part of the communication issue (considering that YOU cannot resolve his part for HIM)?

If it were only about me, and I didn't have other considerations perhaps at least I'd be willing to take more risks, but I have other people reliant on me and their lives will be even more changed by that. I won't gamble with their futures.

I understand the need to make sure that the kids are taken care of and are fine. That said, you are making this about YOU. You want what you want and you want it NOW. You want him to go get help, do what YOU say to do. You want him to LISTEN to YOU. Are you wrong to feel this way? No. Is he wrong to feel the way that he FEELS. Stop for one second and consider his pain, his anger, his frustration. Stop for a second and realize that maybe he needs to SEE YOU give HIM room and space to make HIS own choices.

I love him, but I can't help him or change his mind.

What if he felt or said the same thing to you? “Queen, I am messed up…I just need time and space to figure this crap out”. “I am lost and I need YOU to understand”.
Queen, I want to be clear here…I am not saying that you should be a doormat and allow him to do whatever he needs to do. Nope. BUT I think YOU need to consider HIS feelings as well as the kids. Is that not what LOVE is?

Shock. He teared up, got emotional, while I was not. Said he wasn't making anyone happy, least of all himself, and decided to enroll in the program I am doing.

AND WHAT DOES THIS ^^^^^ tell you?

I love him, I always will, but if he isn't absolutely crazy about me, doesn't love me for me, it's not enough.

And I will play your H for a sec…….”well if she does not love me enough to understand that I am fu*ked up right now…well I do not want her”. Hmmm….communication…..compassion, understanding….Hmnmmm….

Queen,

I have a few questions for you and the answers are for YOU…not me….

What do you hope to accomplish with the threat of Divorce or actually divorce itself?

Is it finances that you worry about?

Is it how and how often he sees the kids?

Do you think the threat would shock his as* back to reality?

Is it that you want to date?

Is it that you want to CONTROL the sitch and take back your life?

Is it that you want to get out of Limbo land?

Do you need the legal piece of paper to feel free? If so, why?


I will leave you with this….

I am just a 42 year old dude that lives in CT and so what the hell do I know. That said, trying to control someone and letting go is so hard. I have learned how our actions in many cases are an attempt to manipulate and control someone else to GET what WE want. I have also learned that the best gift that you can give someone is freedom.

Freedom does not COME from the divorce decree…it comes from within….it comes from a peace that one feels when they take control of their life from a healthy place.

You signed up in November of 2010 – It is Sept of 2011 – Can you look in the mirror and say that you gave this everything you had? OR can you say that you did the best you could, your tired and really sick of this chit?

The answer again is for YOU!

I hope and pray that you do not take my post the wrong way….I truly want the best for YOU.

God Bless,
Eric

[Queen_of_Swords]

Queen
I am not going to say that you are angry but I wanted to point out what I see in your post.
You are probably RIGHT…HE wants to do it by himself. HE WANTS control over HIS life. Can you see how it appears that everything is NOT done on YOUR timeline, the way YOU want it done. IMO, this is the “communication” issue that you talk about. So have YOU resolved YOUR part of the communication issue (considering that YOU cannot resolve his part for HIM)?

I get that you, Eric, see a post that is essentially me ,me, me , and very little about him, his wants, his needs, desires or whatever the heck else he's seeking.
Well this online community is where I write what I feel and think.

STBX does not write here and I can't and won't write for him. I can only imagine what he feels, and thinks because I don't KNOW.

I will be frank with you and say,what you have posted and how I'm perceiving it triggers me because what I get out of your post can be paraphrased as:

" You selfish creature, what about him? You haven't done near enough, worked hard enough, changed yourself enough, developed enough empathy/sympathy and YOU haven't given him enough time and space, for HIM to want to come back. You selfish cow, you haven't had enough counseling, or implemented what you've read/learned effectively."

I got that most of my life Eric, blame and shame.

I understand that's not what you're trying to do, although initially I did feel blamed and shamed when I read what you wrote.
Do I feel that way now? No because your perception is yours and just as valid as my own and I realize we bring ourselves and our wounding into interpreting text.
Besides which, Eric, you don't really know me.

The communication issue between STBX and I, is essentially that STBX does not talk about his feelings. (It was discovered in Retrouvaille that he can't even access the words to describe just how he feels even when provided with word categories describing many shades of feeling.)

He finds writing or talking about his deepest thoughts and feelings excruciatingly painful and arduous. He avoids it. He also at high cost to himself, avoids conflict/confrontation and essentially withdraws into silence and solitary pursuits to numb out.

That avoidance and silence kills me. Slowly.
My primary love languages are quality time and words of affirmation.

I understand the need to make sure that the kids are taken care of and are fine. That said, you are making this about YOU. You want what you want and you want it NOW. You want him to go get help, do what YOU say to do. You want him to LISTEN to YOU. Are you wrong to feel this way? No. Is he wrong to feel the way that he FEELS. Stop for one second and consider his pain, his anger, his frustration. Stop for a second and realize that maybe he needs to SEE YOU give HIM room and space to make HIS own choices.

That's your perception Eric, and I get how you come to that.
I'd like him to do all these things, and liking him to do them, is a lot different than wanting him to do them. I know for anything to work, HE has to want it for himself. My wanting it for him won't make a lick of difference.

He's had two years of living by himself, and seeing me only when he comes to pick up the kids.
I have followed my counselor's recommendations, A DB counselor.
I haven't invaded his space, his phone line, called him at work or even showed up there or anywhere else he frequents. I haven't texted him like a madwoman.
He has his friends, I have mine. Like most separated couples some of our friends chose sides, some dropped us both.

He has his own little world that intersects with mine at kid juncture and that's about it.

What if he felt or said the same thing to you? “Queen, I am messed up…I just need time and space to figure this crap out”. “I am lost and I need YOU to understand”.

Then I'd say, I am sorry you're hurting H. How much time and how much space do you need?
I'd also ask what his expectations of me would be and respectfully ask him to be proactive about figuring his crap out.

Queen, I want to be clear here…I am not saying that you should be a doormat and allow him to do whatever he needs to do. Nope. BUT I think YOU need to consider HIS feelings as well as the kids. Is that not what LOVE is?

Eric I'm not perfect and a lot of my past actions leave a lot to be desired, and perhaps did not show "love " the way you think they should have. Fair enough.
I have done the best I could with the tools I had and now with the tools I have learned and earned IMO.

Shock. He teared up, got emotional, while I was not. Said he wasn't making anyone happy, least of all himself, and decided to enroll in the program I am doing.

AND WHAT DOES THIS ^^^^^ tell you?

It tells me that he's not done with me, a man that emails : " I want a divorce, I don't see my feelings changing." if he meant it he wouldn't get upset and emotional.
What would it matter? It'd would be a mere formality.

It tells me that perhaps, just perhaps he's figured out the stuff I'm doing and the changes I've made are not window dressing or a band-aid , but a path to SELF healing and emotional/mental health.

I don't believe he's doing it for me or the kids. I think his inner pain has finally become unbearable and his chosen self isolation too lonely.

And I will play your H for a sec…….”well if she does not love me enough to understand that I am fu*ked up right now…well I do not want her”. Hmmm….communication…..compassion, understanding….Hmnmmm….

You have a point here Eric.
Perhaps it's better we part ways. I don't know.

We all have a breaking point, and I think when I said those words I resisted saying for so long. With clarity, confidence, quietly and unemotionally, I reached mine.

At that point Wednesday night, I honestly believed anything we did have was gone and lost to the past, because I no longer believe he even likes me as a person , doesn't consider me a friend, doesn't want to socialize and laugh with me, let alone has any love for me.

He respects my skill as a mother and that's pretty much what he's told me.

Queen,
I have a few questions for you and the answers are for YOU…not me….

Regardless, for kicks I'll answer them Eric.

What do you hope to accomplish with the threat of Divorce or actually divorce itself?

It wasn't a threat.
Just a sad acknowledgement that what we had is over.
We're co-parents and I am a wife in name only right now. That hurts.

Is it finances that you worry about?

Yes. I am very focused on making a viable financial future without his help for my own peace of mind.

Is it how and how often he sees the kids?

Partially.

Do you think the threat would shock his as* back to reality?

No, I had no such expectation. That he got upset was a real surprise to me and I was taken aback.

Is it that you want to date?

I want to enjoy my life, and yes that includes cultivating male companionship.

Is it that you want to CONTROL the sitch and take back your life?

No, I felt/feel I have to make a new life, not control the old one.
I now know our marriage expired the day he left, like a organ donor - the corpse was kept alive but the brain is dead.

Is it that you want to get out of Limbo land?

Yes. It's painful as he77 for me.

Do you need the legal piece of paper to feel free? If so, why?

Yes, because with that piece of paper, as irrational as it sounds, I am bound to him with the vows I took.
To make that legal contract void gives me closure and delineates a new and unambiguous boundary.

I am just a 42 year old dude that lives in CT and so what the hell do I know. That said, trying to control someone and letting go is so hard. I have learned how our actions in many cases are an attempt to manipulate and control someone else to GET what WE want. I have also learned that the best gift that you can give someone is freedom.

So I set him free. Free to do whatever he wishes. I took myself out of his equation.

Freedom does not COME from the divorce decree…it comes from within….it comes from a peace that one feels when they take control of their life from a healthy place.

I like to think I'm very close to being there. Perhaps you disagree.

You signed up in November of 2010 – It is Sept of 2011 – Can you look in the mirror and say that you gave this everything you had? OR can you say that you did the best you could, your tired and really sick of this chit?

Yes, I gave it the best I had in me. Now I realize there is NOTHING left to do, but live my life,, take care of my kids, my home, my job, and take it a day at a time.
To live in the now and look to the future, and try not to plan too far ahead.

I'm mainly just sad. I am accepting of the way things are and very, very tired.


The answer again is for YOU!

I hope and pray that you do not take my post the wrong way….I truly want the best for YOU.

God Bless,
Eric

I appreciate the time you took to write and your perspective Eric. I can use the blessings. Thank you kindly.

[ericmsant2]

Queen....

First off I want you to know that I do not take anything that you say to me personal.

I need to gather my thoughts before I respond but I wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten you.


Eric

[Queen_of_Swords]

Had a brief discussion with STBX.

Asked him what his expectations in regard to me are.
He came up empty. He said he doesn't know how he "should" feel.
Doesn't have any idea of what he should expect from me behaviorally now that I've said what I did.

That to me is a strong ,strong cue that as a child he was never "allowed" to feel what he did, but wheedled, guilted or bullied out of it.

He says he doesn't know what he wants. Again, another strong cue that when ever his wants were expressed, they were ignored, and or ridiculed.

Says he feels nothing but numb, and says he's been numb for a very long time.

That grieves me on his behalf.

I've been there a few times.
My experience of it was living a shadow life. Not much pain, but not a whole of lot of pleasure either. A bare existence of going through the motions and pretending to be whole and well.

As for me , the song in my head playing all day has been Bonnie Raitt's " I can't make you love me."
Good news is it doesn't make me cry anymore. Good news is I just sadly agree with the lyrics.