OW called our house

[Endeavour]

I know it may be premature, but since you like Passionate Marriage, I'd recommend dropping $10 and downloading the 2 hour talk Schnarch gave on Extramarital Affairs. It is intended for MFT and Sex Therapists, but as I found it extremely accessible.

Thanks for the suggestion, aeoli. I will definitely download the talk as I have definitely found Passionate Marriage fascinating and insightful.

Listening to it really helped me to deal with a lot of things in how I individually processed my WAW's affair.

Particularly questions like "How could they do this to me?" and issues such as trust.

Yes, those are definitely the questions and issues that I am struggling with..

In a lot of ways, your H's affair sounds like my WAW only he seems to have a lot more insight about his behaviors.

I'm going to have to go back and read more of your sitch. I have read your thoughts on other threads, and actually it was your many posts on PM that piqued my interest, which is why I purchased the book.

His recognition of a desire to hurt you is kind of impressive, in the context of his being an immature putz. Most people would not admit to this kind of marital sadism or have the insight to recognize it. As hurtful as his behavior has been, the fact that he seems to be recognizing his motivations gives me some hope that he may indeed be in the process of growing up in a way that you would need him to in order for you to remain M.

Ironically, I was flipping through PM this morning, looking for insight into affairs, and I came across the Chapter on marital sadism. A lot of it resonated. I suppose it is surprisingly self-aware of my H to be able to admit that he wanted to hurt me and that for a period of time, he even hated me. Admittedly, I can also say that I've felt hatred towards H at some points during the course of our M, so in some respect, I think I am able to understand his motivation. Not the choice but the motivation.

I have concluded, that it's definitely hopeful that he's speaking from such an impressive place of clarity, considering what a huge uncommunicative jerk he's been to me in the last year. (I'm referring to behaviours beyond the A.)

You're in a hell of a place, but you also have the opportunity to shape a path forward with a lot of perspective and insight that most people probably don't possess.

Well, I'm trying but in the past I have let my own negative emotions cloud my better judgement, and I'm a ball of rage right now. I'm going to try to rise to the challenge of coming to terms with all of this, but I realize it won't be the easiest or clearest path.

Anyway, thanks again, aeoli. I think the work of Schnarch has helped me immensely, and I appreciate that I had the chance to read some of your posts on his books.

[Endeavour]

Jeez, could I use the word "definitely" more often?

[LearningPatience]

definitely, E, definitely

[Endeavour]

He has to be able to block her phone number.
He should also call the police and let them know she is harassing him and get them involved. My H's ex went psycho on me not too long after we were married and I had to get them involved, but it stopped.

We blocked her on the home phone but I'm hesitant to have him block her on his cell, as I'm worried she'll find another way to contact him -- such as coming to our home or contacting his family. I think blocking her from expressing herself too soon might send her into a rage of despair, and she'd get really desperate. Yikes.

You know, I always said that an A is a deal breaker also. I've since learned that you can't say exactly what you would do for sure in a situation like this until it happens.

Yes, I've always said this as well and in some circumstances, I still believe it should be a deal breaker. (If he actually left me for her, I would not take him back months later - that I know.) No more back and forth drama in my life anymore. I'm done with that, but I am open to at least "considering" that we can have a new M. I wasn't too fond of our old one in recent years either, but this mess has certainly made having a new one whole lot harder.

I am sure your feelings are all over the place. Anger, sadness, etc and I completely understand that. Just take a while to really process everything so you will be able to make a decision not based on emotions

I am in awe of your strength.

Yes, I'm cycling pretty fast but I find posting here calms me down. It's as if the more I talk, the better I feel.

As for being strong, I'm actually surprised I'm not going batch!t crazy (not as in "phoning and threatening ow" crazy (I would never even consider that kind of drama, even before DB), but as in "throwing my H's sorry a$$ in a screaming rage" crazy). Honestly, I think I have learned a lot since I started reading this forum.

[Endeavour]

First of all 25, thanks for sharing your thoughts and stories on Retrovaille - I think I cried through most of your post and I will probably read it many more times.

Don't know where you live but when we looked it up here, it was literally on our anniversary weekend within an hour's drive.

Yes, it's about 35 minutes away and it's coming up next month.

Can you guys rent some comedies? If d refuses to leave her room, can she spend some time with s7? Are they close? She needs to reach out to someone in the family soon...

Her and S7 are very close. He did spend some time with her yesterday and I've gone in to speak with her a few times today. She's also been texting me. She prefers to be alone to think, and I believe she needs a bit more time but I will try and encourage her to do something this weekend. Most likely with me.

During one of our conversations today, she said she was afraid we would D but that she was also angry and disgusted. I said that I understood those feelings and that H did too, and that he would talk to her when she was ready. I told her I would not be making any decisions right now so not to worry about a D. And I assured her that I would also not be throwing her father out and adding more drama to our lives. I told her I've been reading, and that a lot of married people have worked through stuff like this, and that I was trying to figure out what was best for all of us right now.

And yes, comedies are a good idea right now.

How is your d's friends' family with the A, NOW coping?Are they divorcing?

Yes, they are already divorced and it's been almost 2 years. Her friend is still struggling with an eating disorder and has also been drinking a lot since the divorce. D has been very upset to see her friend in such pain. And I'm sure D16 was not expecting something similar to happen to her family in a millions years.

But if I had gone on, and if h found out, I'd hope he'd forgive me b/c we are a good team. And if he tried to shame me --I'd have rationalized it totally...(I sure did back then)

My H is extremely ashamed and I have told him the whole thing disgusts me because he brought our family to it's knees for a batchit crazy wingnut, so I can't say I haven't expressed that I'm ashamed of him.

But then again, he is definitely not rationalizing the A either. In fact, just the opposite. He has repeatedly said it was the worst mistake of his life and that he was immature, pathetic, childish, petty. (He has quite the list of adjectives for himself and none of them are very pretty.)

I don't know what it is about this NUTS book that some men on the forum have mentioned, but apparently it changed H's outlook (seemly overnight) on a lot of his life.

He's even told me that many of the things I have said over the years, concerning his behaviour/our issues, and even the things I said during the last 5 months of his bombing me, are so bang on -- that he's almost afraid for me to read this book. And things I have complained about during our M, that he ignored, have become so obvious for him now.

Actually, he sounds almost like the H I knew when we were happy but even better.

Sounds like your h gets it though...a lot sooner than mine did.

I actually think he does get it. And I truly hope he is being genuine because so far I'm completely blown away by the fact that my vacillating H, who quite frankly was a bit insane only 9 days ago, sounds like a competent mature man who knows exactly what he wants.

And he has not made a single excuse for his behaviour. Even when he talks of the hurt and rejection, that he used to justify the A when it began, he promises that he absolutely realizes now, that was still NO excuse. He's said there was absolutely no excuse, no justification, aside from utter selfishness for what he did, and he will never again say to himself that he was justified.

Anyway, I am impressed with his forthright honesty and new found self-awareness. However, I can't believe he's finally becoming a better man at such a terrible expense, especially with our poor kids being dragged into the drama the other night.

let your heart heal some more for now and see where it leads you in the next few..."units of time"...

Yes, I will do this as I know that making a decision right now would be foolish. I'm actually surprised I'm not the least bit tempted to throw him out in a fit of rage. It's almost as if DB'ing works. Or I've detached. I'm freaking myself out a little to be honest...

In some ways divorce SEEMS easier...the thought of "all the work" to do is overwhelming to some....which is why Retrovaille is a great idea no matter what you do maritally-you'll accept each other more.

But from what I see in life and on these boards, there's work to do either way. And not much of a "reward" for the divorce work...

Yes, the more I read, the more I realize that divorce would be just as difficult as staying. Either path is wrought with pain which is why I'm not overly eager to take either road right now. But one obviously comes with a greater reward.

But witnessing the redemption of a man, and the forgiveness of a betrayed spouse, are valuable legacies to leave one's children.

I hope so. BUT I want my children to see me as strong and forgiving and not as a doormat to a cheating H.

Despite your h's A, it sounds as if you are owning your contribution to this, correct? So maybe you can end the old m, and begin the new one...in time

Yes, I know I contributed to his unhappiness and I can certainly validate why he was feeling so unloved and rejected. That doesn't excuse his bad choice, but yes, I do understand his complaints, and I do own my part in the breakdown of our M.

At some point I want to forgive him because I don't want to be bitter and hateful. I would like to say that I could forgive AND stay in the M, but I have no idea if I'm capable. I would like to think that I am capable of that kind love, but I realize it's going to be very, very painful. Then again, I also know that it would be painful to leave my H because of everything I have learned on this board over the past 5 months.

Anyway, thanks again, 25. Your posts are like a free counseling session, and I really enjoy them.

[Endeavour]

ps

might seem like I'm telling you what to do. I'm really not.

Just saying what it could be like, perhaps, in time and with work...

Good luck and no judgement will come from here if you decide you simply cannot forgive it in a way that makes sense.

I never saw forgiveness growing up, so for me it was a learned skill. Took time even once I chose to do it.

Oh, I didn't take it as judgement. Just perspective. I'm very open right now. And I think everything you said makes perfect sense. Perhaps forgiveness is a lesson/skill I need to learn because I didn't see a lot of it growing up either.

[Endeavour]

The OW just freakin' scares me. I would have authorities on speed dial.

Well, at least we get to use our favourite smiley a lot when referring to ow.

[ncl]

Just a quick check in to let you know that you and your kids have been on my mind and heart. Love, prayers and hugs to you...lc4

[jbnati]

Well, at least we get to use our favourite smiley a lot when referring to ow.

Ain't that the truth! You made me laugh.

E - I did want to check and see how you're holding up. You're still in my thoughts and prayers.

Give yourself time to forgive your H. I think you still need time to process the emotions today. Forgiveness is one of the best gifts you can give yourself. It allows you set down some baggage and you will be able to live more freely.

[Endeavour]

Just a quick check in to let you know that you and your kids have been on my mind and heart. Love, prayers and hugs to you...lc4

Thanks, lc. I'm going to pop over to your thread after this...


Yesterday was hard, very hard. I didn't sleep again the night before because I couldn't stop crying. The images of the kid's faces on the night we all found out kept flashing through my mind.

By the evening, the rage kicked in. H and I were talking and he was giving me some of the "gory" details, and I lost it. All these months of being compassionate and understanding through his numerous bombs, and trying to keep it together for him, for the kids, and everything just bubbled to the surface.

I pushed him and smacked him hard on the back. Then, broke down sobbing. (I can't believe my life has turned into an episode of Springer. )

I told him I shouldn't have done it and he told me not to apologize, that I could not even come close to hurting him like he's hurt me. (He also said I'm not very strong and that it probably hurt me more than him. True. I have a bruise on my hand and he's fine).

But still.

(I don't know. Maybe I need meds because the anger hits me quickly and suddenly, when I least expect it.)

THEN ow called his office line and left a message:

Two days ago, you were begging me to wait for you. Please. This isn't fair. I waited for you for a year.


I asked him if it was true that he was "begging" her, and he said absolutely not.

The craziness of the last 5 months is starting to become clearer as he continues to share more of his thought process during that time...

He said he hasn't seen ow since I gave him the letter giving him an out on August 19th. He wanted the A to end, even before the letter, and tried to break up with her many times, but she kept threatening him. (We were getting a lot of hang up calls this summer from a blocked number but I thought it was telemarketers. Now it all makes sense).

So he continued to text her and make excuses as to why they couldn't meet, and she kept asking why he seemed different, and he made more excuses.


He had started reading about affairs and the "fog", and that's when he it hit him that the R with her wasn't real, and that he didn't want that R no matter what happened with us.

He said ow was the one begging him to move out because originally he told her he would be out in the Spring, and then never followed through. Then he said the summer...

He couldn't bring himself to move out, even after the first bomb.

As the summer started coming to an end without him moving out, ow really started to come undone.

He was certain our M would be destroyed by her call.

THEN during one of our R talks, he asked me why some of things I was saying seemed so different. I told him while searching for a D support group, I came across a forum on saving marriages. And that what I had read made me realize a lot about us, about myself, and that I wanted to be a better, more forgiving person. That I had read stories of people who had stood for their marriages during and after affairs, or even after their spouse had left and filed for D.

Unbeknownst to me after this R talk, he did a Google search and found the DB forum. He said he never read my stich as there were so many BUT...

that's when he began to think that maybe just maybe with what I had learned, that I would change my mind about an A being a deal breaker, and I'd give our M another chance.

And he was going to counselling to decide how, or if to tell me about the A.

So he said he knows I have no reason to believe him, but there is NO way he was begging her to wait. Because he was not moving out ever (unless I wanted him to).

He said after everything he has read and learned (especially that NUTS book), that he could never ever have an A again, nor would he want to. And after seeing the looks on the faces of me and the kids the night she called, that he could NEVER again look at ow or talk to her again without feeling utter disgust with her and himself. He said he is done living without integrity.

He did tell ow in the past that I would leave him if I found out about the A so I believe she's probably bidding her time, hoping I will ask him to leave.

She is determined to bring down our M.

And I don't think she's done.