Feeling alone and frustrated with a 180.

[Psych77]

What would it look like if your changes stuck?

Is there a point where you become 'deformed' beyond being able to spring back into your old ways?

What changes do you enjoy the most?

You know a lot of the time, I write stuff here just intending to kvetch. You don't let me get away with that. My hat is off to you for getting me to face things in such a way as to solve them.

I guess if the changes stuck, they would become easy (I hope), because I would be habituated to them, and they would just come naturally. Which is to say, I hope there is a point where I stop springing back into my old ways.

The changes I enjoy most? Ironically, those I have been least consistent in applying. GALing - it gives me permission to actually do something to please myself, rather than frantically trying to figure out what I should be doing to make things better at home.

It is really tough to try to make myself a better person without letting myself slip into it being all about pleasing W. And it's hard to GAL without completely ignoring doing things that make me more responsible, a better worker, father - you know, all that stodgy stuff. I have always been good at extremes, but keeping any kind of balance is a challenge for me.

Another thing that is hard for me is to be able to accept that sometimes W is being unreasonable, without being tempted to blame everything on her. Again, extremes. When I realized that it wasn't fair to blame her for every conflict between us, I automatically shot toward assuming that I was always the problem in our relationship. Now, it's hard for me to even blow off something she said or did because she's cranky. I always ask, "Did I do something wrong? What's wrong with me?" But I'm afraid of going to the other extreme.

OK, you can see how nutty it is inside MY head!

The last 24 hours have been bizarre. First, last evening W said to me she couldn't look at a website she usually likes to see, because...she stopped, looking for the word. I threw in a suggestion, and she got really annoyed, telling me that she can't say anything without my finishing a sentence for her, and why don't I just listen. I apologized, and I thought that was it.

Later on, I sat beside her as she was doing something, and she asked, "What do you want?" I'm not too quick with social cues, but I have figured out that that question usually does not bode well. So I asked her what was bothering her. She answered that I was rude, and when I asked her what I had done (not defensively, but seriously - I know I can be offensive without even realizing it, and it has embarrassed me often enough), and she brought back up my finishing her sentence. I apologized again, then left the room, figuring that pursuing the matter would probably not help. While I was on my own, I thought about the fact that often my apologies were really just me saying, "I don't want you to be angry anymore," rather than an expression of insight into something I shouldn't have done. So, I tried to imagine what the incident meant to her. I went back to her (she was in bed, but not asleep by this time), and told her that I didn't know why it was so automatic for me to try to complete her sentences every time she hesitated... Well, I didn't get any farther than that. She got a little snappy, and said that she didn't hesitate, she just couldn't find the word (I really had assumed the two meant the same thing). I sort of felt unsure what I could say that wouldn't get me into trouble! So I just acknowledged what she said and hastily apologized for not listening, which she accepted unceremoniously. And I started to go to sleep.

That was when it got more bizarre. (Warning: the following may be a little uncomfortable )

A little later, when I was half asleep, W awakened me with, "This may sound weird, but I am really horny, and I just want to *bleep*." W is no stranger to the use of this word when angry or frustrated, but she has almost never used it in reference to the actual act, especially between us. She wanted me to satisfy her first, and I never have any problem with that - in fact, I am more comfortable that way. Then she told me she didn't want to kiss. Well, I have to say that idea wasn't very attractive to me, and I felt a little rejected. On the other hand, I knew that W had many times had sex with me when she wasn't really in the mood, just out of concern for my needs, so I figured WTF (literally).

Feeling as alone and isolated as I have lately, I really wanted more from sex than just sex. (Incidentally, I had never imagined, as a man, that an offer of sex would be less than attractive to me because I wanted more emotional depth - always thought that I would be perfectly satisfied as long as I had a horny woman) I'm not sure how I feel about last night, or how I should respond to such a request should it come up again.

I know I shouldn't try to read into the things that W does, but I have been wondering what a request like that means. Especially from someone who has never looked at sex like that, who is in a situation our marriage has never been in before. I don't even know where to start.

This morning she woke up early enough to see me before I left for work, and we both agreed that last night felt really weird.

OK, I'm actually feeling a little tired just typing all of that up. Am I nuts for making such a big deal out of this? Was it a little creepy? I don't know what to make of it, or even, for certain, how I feel about it.

Hope I didn't creep anybody out typing that here.

[Endeavour]

That was when it got more bizarre. (Warning: the following may be a little uncomfortable )

A little later, when I was half asleep, W awakened me with, "This may sound weird, but I am really horny, and I just want to *bleep*." W is no stranger to the use of this word when angry or frustrated, but she has almost never used it in reference to the actual act, especially between us. She wanted me to satisfy her first, and I never have any problem with that - in fact, I am more comfortable that way. Then she told me she didn't want to kiss. Well, I have to say that idea wasn't very attractive to me, and I felt a little rejected. On the other hand, I knew that W had many times had sex with me when she wasn't really in the mood, just out of concern for my needs, so I figured WTF (literally).

Feeling as alone and isolated as I have lately, I really wanted more from sex than just sex. (Incidentally, I had never imagined, as a man, that an offer of sex would be less than attractive to me because I wanted more emotional depth - always thought that I would be perfectly satisfied as long as I had a horny woman) I'm not sure how I feel about last night, or how I should respond to such a request should it come up again.

I know I shouldn't try to read into the things that W does, but I have been wondering what a request like that means. Especially from someone who has never looked at sex like that, who is in a situation our marriage has never been in before. I don't even know where to start.

I know I'm a marriage book reading maniac right now but pick up Passionate Marriage, Psych. Trust me. And that's all I will say about that.

[aeolianchaos]

so I figured WTF (literally).

This cracked me up!

The changes I enjoy most? Ironically, those I have been least consistent in applying. GALing - it gives me permission to actually do something to please myself, rather than frantically trying to figure out what I should be doing to make things better at home.

You mention that you enjoy those activities the most, but I think what I'm probing for here is to get you to reflect on the level of satisfaction, pleasure, relief, benefits, etc.. of your changes and how they benefit you personally. I'd especially be interested to know about changes you might make that lead to you liking yourself or respecting yourself more.

When you talk about being good at extremes, but struggling with balance and moderation. Can you consider the metaphor of a Zero Center Meter, with the needle in the middle? And your responses or reactions kind of move that needle?

This could be applied to other things, like what kind of effort you are applying to a situation. In the middle is the correct effort. To the left and right are too little and too much. Much like the needle on a meter, it often takes some wiggling back and forth and adjustment before it hits center.

Sometimes I think about the left and right sides of the needle reflecting the L and R sides of my brain - if my desire is to move towards homeostasis, I would kind of want the needle to be in the middle.. I guess poking me in the corpus callosum. Might be worth thinking about.

If you ever played Madden, I think the Field Goal kicking gauges would also work as a metaphor.

First, last evening W said to me she couldn't look at a website she usually likes to see, because...she stopped, looking for the word. I threw in a suggestion, and she got really annoyed, telling me that she can't say anything without my finishing a sentence for her, and why don't I just listen. I apologized, and I thought that was it.

Is it possible that for your W, there is more to this than you just finishing her sentence?

The fact that she got as upset as she did about it suggests to me that it might have triggered some other frustrations that she struggles to express with you.

I find it interesting that you acknowledge that perhaps your apologies serve a different purpose than simply reflecting an insight that you did something that you regret or have remorse for. Do you think that your W perceives them this way as well?

Do you think that its possible to get insight into your W's response to you finishing her sentences without it becoming another argument? How important is it for you to understand WHY she got upset in the way that she did?

What would it change for you if you had that information?

Hope I didn't creep anybody out typing that here.

Sex (or the absence thereof for some of us) is a big part of life for most adults. I don't think there is anything creepy in what you wrote.

I will second Endeavor's recommendation of Passionate Marriage - it is a wonderful book and it will definitely expand your concept of sex and sexuality. I think you'll especially like his use of sex as a window into other aspects of the relationship.

The fact that your W really wanted to *bleep* and was willing to state so directly and ask for the sex she wanted is kind of interesting. I think that if you read Passionate Marriage, you might see that there is potentially a lot to applaud about her actions. it may be that in going through that discomfort and experiencing it, that you both have an opportunity to grow in some way.

You certainly aren't nuts for looking at it and wondering what it meant. It's possible that it really was only a question of physical urges - the 'meat' model of sexuality. On the other hand, she chose to wake you and ask you to participate as opposed to having sex alone.

You really can't know what is going on in her head ( this is a function of life, not Aspergers..). It's even possible that she has fantasies and desires that she feels uncomfortable sharing with you because of your importance to her. This is not uncommon.

You say "especially from someone who has never looked at sex like that" but you can't actually know the myriad ways she may look at sex but never tells anyone about.

What you thought of the experience is interesting - do you think its possible that F**King could possess emotional depth in its own way? (Again.. Passionate Marriage explores this far more competently)

What would make it creepy?

[Psych77]

OK, so that's one more book on my reading list (I am an excruciatingly slow reader, so I will be busy for a while). Passionate Marriage. Gotcha.

...what I'm probing for here is to get you to reflect on the level of satisfaction, pleasure, relief, benefits, etc.. of your changes and how they benefit you personally. I'd especially be interested to know about changes you might make that lead to you liking yourself or respecting yourself more.

Well, gosh darn it, that means I have to think a lot harder! And my brain already hurts.

OK, I have been working more on keeping up the house, both in terms of cleanliness and repair. I feel a lot less hopeless and stressed out than when the housework gets behind (ever seen a 3 bedroom house filled with a couple and 5 kids?), and I feel like I deserve a little more respect and recognition than when I sat helplessly by and watched things deteriorate.

It is also a great relief when I have managed to let W have her "cranky" times and just walk away, rather than getting offended or pursuing it as though it were a conflict to be resolved. I feel a lot less stress knowing that by giving a quick apology and letting her accept or reject this I can make things much less tense in the house. In contrast to my previous habit of following her around, begging her for forgivenness every time she became annoyed with something.

Even though it is not the healthiest release for me, I appreciate the fact that I can choose to watch the TV or a funny movie, even if that is not what W wants to do. It really sounds funny to type that out, but previously I was so hung up on us being together all the time, I wanted everything I did to be with her. Wow, the more I type about this, the more pathetic I sound to me.

When you talk about being good at extremes, but struggling with balance and moderation. Can you consider the metaphor of a Zero Center Meter, with the needle in the middle?

I have no trouble conceptualizing this idea. It is easy to consider the idea that the best strategy is in a balance between extremes. So visualizing the meter is not the hard part.

There are two challenges. First, figuring out exactly where the "zero" mark in the middle is. And, far more difficult, convincing myself in the moment not to go for an extreme. That is, when I realize that I have gone to far to the left, then my automatic inclination is to go all the way to the right. I tend to be overreactive. I really have to force myself to calm down and keep a steady course.

I find it interesting that you acknowledge that perhaps your apologies serve a different purpose than simply reflecting an insight that you did something that you regret or have remorse for. Do you think that your W perceives them this way as well?

Do you think that its possible to get insight into your W's response to you finishing her sentences without it becoming another argument? How important is it for you to understand WHY she got upset in the way that she did?

W has frequently expressed to me her perception that I often apologize to her not because I see that I was wrong, but to end a conflict. Naturally, as this often happened in arguments, I would deny it angrily. Only when I realized that these arguments were costing us our R did I really give it any serious thought. Now, sometimes, I recognize it when it happens or shortly after. Usually, in the moment, I feel like I am in self-preservation mode, and act to try to reduce the tension between us, which feels threatening to me.

I think it would be very useful to ask W what my finishing her sentences means to her. Even if it did nothing else, it could demonstrate my willingness to listen to how she feels. Hopefully, however, it would find its way into my brain and help me to alter my responses.

I don't think there is anything creepy in what you wrote.

I was afraid that it might come across as TMI, giving that kind of specific about our sex life. I'm glad it didn't offend.

she chose to wake you and ask you to participate as opposed to having sex alone.

Well, we are kinda old school Catholics, so masturbation is out. Not that we can't enjoy ML playfully or with gusto (a lot of people have some misconceptions about our religion), but it has to be with each other (on a side note, I can tell you that this particular stricture can be a real challenge for a man to comply with - I can't speak for the women). I guess that is where some of the insecurity came in. I was wondering if she might have just wanted to be satisfied, and was worried that the only reason she wanted me was that was the only way she could do it without breaking her morals. After speaking with my IC, I felt a little better. We just literally had never had sex that way, and not wanting the "face contact," made me insecure as to whether any part of it was about wanting me, or whether it was just about wanting "sex."

It is also important to me that, in this whole period in our marriage, sex has been almost the only place where there has been any tenderness between us. So I kind of felt lonely afterward.

do you think its possible that F**King could possess emotional depth in its own way?

Okay, that idea just makes my head reel. Maybe I'll give it some more thought later. Right now, I have to get to karate class - very important part of my GAL.

[Psych77]

OK, so I didn't make it to karate. Tire went flat, then put on the donut, and the donut was flat.

I didn't have any cash, but thankfully there was a nice guy at the gas station where I tried to fill up the donut (wouldn't hold any air), who bought a fix-a-flat (never going without one of those in my car again). Got me home, but I need a new tire, and have no money till next payday.

Went home and put my foot in my mouth yet again. Told W about the whole thing, and said I would have to borrow the spare car (one we held onto because my S17 is going to buy it from us). W got angry because, she reminded me, the car is technically hers, and I had told her I would need to use it rather than asking her.

Of course, because our relationship is so tenuous now, every little thing seems like a big thing.

Last night, W was laughing at something she was reading, and started to tell me about it, but when I didn't understand one of the references she was making, she sort of shoo'ed me away, saying she didn't want to explain it to me, because I wouldn't understand. Then later, I heard her explaining the whole thing to S17. Like I said, it seemed big to me at the time.

That is exactly the sort of thing that I shouldn't be letting get to me, right? The kind of thing that, if I was really GALing, would probably not bother me, because I would have my own things. I guess I really haven't been GALing lately. Slipped back into hanging on W's every word. Must be just as frustrating for her, as she must feel a lot of pressure on her when I get that hung up.

I came on this board wound up like a spring, but I think right now the biggest problem I have is not being able to be comfortable and happy independent of W.

Thing is, I like being in love. And every time there is the slightest sign that this is coming back, I go overboard again. Which, I am sure, just pushes W away. Same old song, and how well I know it. I only hope that each time it happens, I am succeeding at being a little less obsessive, and am able to keep my cool a little bit more.

It's getting exhausting, going back and forth on my "mood swing." I know I'm supposed to "drop the rope," but I don't really know how, yet. Again, I hope that I am gradually letting go.

I'm really tired. Hopefully I can make it to karate tonight.

[Psych77]

Typically I don't go on this board from home. We have a small house, and there is not much chance to get online in private. And this is sort of my chance to get my s#!t sorted out independent of my M life, so I don't really want W to be watching while I type this stuff out.

The result is that I am not usually here on the weekend. So, I get to look over the weekend on Monday and get some perspective.

Thankfully, I have a little bit of peace right now. Either W and I are more relaxed and not getting on each other's nerves, or I am not reacting to/analyzing everything W says as much as usual. I think it's a little of both.

Yesterday at church, the priest was sermoning on forgivenness, and I think that got W to lighten up a little bit. We didn't really talk or spend much time together yesterday, but she also showed some appreciation for the things that I was doing. Later when I told her she looked really pretty tonight, she thanked me. Believe it or not, this is huge. Usually she would answer, "Yeah, right," or, "Okay, what do you want," or some such. Doesn't take compliments very well, usually.

At any rate, makes me feel a lot less anxous around the house. Kept good and busy yesterday, even if it was only work that needed to get done around the house. But I also spent some time with the kids.

It gets me that a week or two ago I was complaining that, while I had made some progress, nothing more seemed to be changing. Right now, I am enjoying the fact that there are no changes. It is a quiet time, and seems to be giving me a chance to recharge from the stress of trying to hold myself together while W continues to process her anger with me and our current separateness.

I have to wonder what it will be like if/when we start to come back together - to start "piecing." I am a little afraid that I will begin to rely on her again. My GAL efforts have not been that strong, and I can't think of anything for me that I love so much that I would be motivated to hang on to it if W and I were back in love.

I guess over the course of the relationship, especially through parenthood, I have largely lost myself. My whole life has become all about providing for my family, being a good father and, less successfully, a good husband. If someone asked me about ME, I don't really know what I would answer. And I guess I am just realizing that it's hard to love that way. My love seems less full when I am not anyone independent of W and kids.

I guess that is all I have on my mind today. Apart from that, I am just aware of the extra space I have, and enjoying BREATHING.

[Psych77]

Haven't had time to post lately, have been very busy at work, and, as I said, I don't post from home. Don't need W to be looking when I am trying to fix ME, and certainly don't need kids seeing me on something called "Divorce Busting." I don't want to have to explain to them. That word is not something they've even thought of, as far as I know.

Well, the other night, I broke all the rules. Totally botched up, as far as DBing was concerned. But I believe it brought us to a place where we needed to be.

I came home, and W was tired. She had been having trouble sleeping for several nights (still is having trouble, poor thing), and when I came in, we were getting along fine. The trouble started when she called me from the other room, and said that I had put the gas cap on wrong on the car. The "check engine" light had gone on. Well, my response was "What do you mean, 'put it on wrong?'" From my POV, just asking for clarification. Well, we went back and forth a few times before it broke into a fight. What a STUPID thing to fight over, right. Well, she got angry at me for asking, told me to read the manual myself, and left the room.

Well, although I have had some times where I have done pretty good at DBing, I lost no time breaking the DBing rules this time. I followed her, and wanted to know what I had said wrong. We ended up in the bedroom arguing. She told me that I had gotten defensive. I told her that I wasn't defensive, that I just wanted clarification, but she kept on referring to it as me being defensive. This, of course, drove me crazy. For me, at this point, it was no longer about the gas cap; I was just upset that she was telling me what my feelings had been without listening to what I said about my feelings. I wanted to be listened to, respected. I continued to argue with her, telling her she needed to listen to me.

We had actually been getting along well for several days. Such times always seemed to end with a fight over a stupid thing like this, and I knew from experience that once this little fight happened, W would be closed to me again for a perikod of days to weeks. I know you can't hold onto a time of progress with force, but dammit, I didn't want to let it go again, and have us slip into a sullen silence for weeks, so I fought. Made no sense to fight, but I was going to do it anyway. She told me several times that she was tired and wanted to go to bed, but I wouldn't let it go. I know that this was also the wrong thing to do, but at the moment I was running on emotions, not reason (equally wrong).

Finally, she said that she didn't want to bother with talking to me if she couldn't tell me a stupid little thing without me raising my voice(this is important). I asked her if she was saying that my very first response, "What do you mean," had been said with a raised voice, and she confirmed that. I apologized and said I had not realized my voice was raised, and I hadn't meant to raise my voice (on later reflection, when I calmed down, I realized that initially my face had become tense at that moment, and that I probably was feeling defensive, but I honestly hadn't recognized those feelings at the time). W was having no such apology. She remained angry, and did not want to talk any more. She rolled over and went to sleep.

I was angry and hurt, felt I had not been listened to or respected, felt that I had, in fact, been disregarded. During that conversation I said some things I shouldn't have, just trying to get W to pay attention to me. Of course, you can guess, that resulted in no progress. I layed down next to her, hurt, tense, and upset. I don't know if I could have fallen asleep that way. I know I didn't want to fall asleep like that.

After several minutes, I told her I was sorry we fought. Not assigning blame either way, just sorry that it happened. She answered, "Me, too." I was surprised and touched. When W is angry at me, I always feel completely rejected and unwanted, and it was such a welcome surprise to hear that she didn't want to be in such conflict with me that I turned to her and aksed, "Really?" Then her anger flared up again, and she answered sarcastically, "No, I'm lying! I hate it when you say that!" Wow, words like that sting when you have just softened up.

Then, she rolled over, away from me, on her side. I didn't know if it was to get away from me, or because she was willing to spoon. I put my arm over her, then felt unsuare, so I took it off.

After a minute or so, a light went off in my head that usually doesn't turn on until at least the day after a fight. From behind, W looked all tense. I turned toward her, and asked, "Are you still feeling tense?"

She started to tell me (for the umpteenth time) that she was tired, she didn't want to talk anymore but just to go to sleep. But she stopped, and asked, "Why do you ask?"

I said, "I don't know if you feel anxious or frightened when I raise my voice. But if you do, and if you still feel anxious, I would like to know if there is any way I can help you to feel better."

W turned and kissed me on the mouth. This is important, because it has been I don't know how many months since she has kissed me in the mouth other than when we are having sex. She usually will only offer me her cheek, for almost a year. Then she let me put my arm around her, and held my hand. And we went to sleep.

I think I am developing the ability to see beyond my own feelings. Eventually I hope I can do that during an argument, so we don't have to let it escalate.

I know that I should have controlled myself better, and I can't expect such a positive outcome if I regularly let my emotions get the better of me. But in this case, if I had not pursued the matter, we would have gone to sleep without my ever making that connection, that recognition of her feelings, while she was still hurting. This once, it worked out well.

I seem to be a kind of Jekyll and Hyde. Except in my case, Hyde is not evil, he's just completely emotional. Normally my rational mind controls everything, and I'm not even aware of my own feelings. If my intention is not consistent with anger, then as far as I am concerned, I'm not angry. Eventually my emotions become so intense that I can't control them. Then they control my actions, and reasoning gets completely bypassed. Either I think and am not conscious of my emotions, or I feel and my reasoning doesn't have a say in my actions. One of my biggest challenges right now is to integrate my thought and feeling, so that they are not such strangers to each other.

I have to leave now, but just wanted to put this up there. Yay for progress!

[dearme]

I have to wonder what it will be like if/when we start to come back together - to start "piecing." I am a little afraid that I will begin to rely on her again. My GAL efforts have not been that strong, and I can't think of anything for me that I love so much that I would be motivated to hang on to it if W and I were back in love.

I guess over the course of the relationship, especially through parenthood, I have largely lost myself. My whole life has become all about providing for my family, being a good father and, less successfully, a good husband. If someone asked me about ME, I don't really know what I would answer. And I guess I am just realizing that it's hard to love that way. My love seems less full when I am not anyone independent of W and kids.

This. I can definitely relate to this. You took the thought right out of my head

[In_Shock]

I second that also dearme --- my IC actually asked me who I am? I've lost myself to my R

[Psych77]

Thanks, guys.

Sometimes it makes sense - there is so much to be done that you can't think about anything but your family. But then, when things calm down, and you realize that you are kind of lost...well, I want my W to fall back in love with me, but I kind of realize taht there is not much there to fall in love with.

I notice the "Living together platonically as 'best friends'" in your signature. Would like to let your W know what real love is all about.

On the other hand, the "best friends" part isn't all bad. As for W and me, sex when we have it, is hot (not that I wouldn't like it to happen a little more frequently), but I am struggling to gain her trust back so that she will talk to me about what is going on with her. I would love to be her best friend.

If only your W understood what a gift it is for her H to be her best friend!

Keep on keepin' on!