Feeling alone and frustrated with a 180.

[Endeavour]

Psych, you don't babble. I think you make a lot of sense. I learn so much by reading your posts which is why I usually read them 3 times.

Anyway, I do know what you mean. I think. It's akin to when people react out of anger but you know that behind anger there is usually pain and fear so instead of being defensive, you can react with compassion and understanding.

[Psych77]

Thanks, Endeavour. The big trick is to know that there is pain behind W's upset in the moment, so that I can learn not to react at that time. These insights are great, but it's much easier to educate my thoughts than to educate my feelings, which, unfortunately, still react as though I'm a 5 year old.

Right now, I am having some trouble DBing. I have made a few changes - some GAL, backing off, giving W room, and controlling my temper better. The last one is kind of hard to see, because W has been avoiding talking about much of any importance - she is afraid of me melting down. Anyway, I have done a few things, and there has been some success. Things are not terribly tense between me and W, and there has been the occasional sex (W will not consider it ML at this point, just calls it sex). As has been pointed out, these are very good things, definite progress.

The trouble comes because the changes have slowed down. It is probably a lack of patience on my part, but the thoughts keep on returning to my mind: "It was getting better, and now it's stopped. Is there something more I should be doing? Is it supposed to stop and platteau like this? Will I lose the progress we've made if we don't keep progressing?" And a hundred other "freak out" questions.

I think I already know the answer. First, I need to make these current changes last, which is a job in itself. I could shift my focus to making more changes, but if I do too much at once it may be harder to make the changes permanent. We have probably reached a stopping point for the time being because W is enjoying some of the changes, but now she is nervous - she is opening up to me a little, and is afraid that the other shoe will soon drop. I think she has put on the brakes to wait it out and see if the changes will last, before she drops her guard any more. Or maybe the change is just a little tiring, and she is not ready to tackle any more just yet. I think maybe this little stop is a normal occurrence on the way back to a good marriage.

When there is some affection, even a little, between us, it is so hard for me not to scramble back to her to soak in as much as I can. I am afraid it will always be scarce, and want to have it while I can. Of course, doing so ensures that it will be scarce. So I guess I had better renew my efforts to be independent of W - even though it sometimes feels like I am being inattentive.

I have a little extra time today at work. Maybe I should finish up what I have to do, and then hit DR again - I could use more refresher. I never bring the book into the house. W doesn't need to know that I am putting effort into our M, except when she actually sees me doing it.

I love you guys! Thank you for being there for me.

[aeolianchaos]

Hi, Psych

Do feelings ever become educated?

What kinds of thoughts precede those feelings that you have?

How do you respond to those feelings when you experience them?

I think that you are doing very well with your changes. I wouldn't play it down just because they don't feel as dramatic anymore. Maybe that means they are sticking?

Sex still has the potential to be a moment of meaning. As you acknowledge - its still better than no sex. If you want to experience better sex or a different kind of sex, what does that mean to you?

What might it mean to your W? It sounds like she initiates, based on what you have shared here.

It is interesting that you perceive that your wife is nervous, but at the same time enjoying the new improved Psych. Do you think that her nervousness is solely based in a fear of your behavior?

Is it possible that in making your changes and confronting yourself in the way that you have, is changing a dynamic in the relationship that takes you both out of the 'comfort' cycle (I think its entirely possible to be 'comfortable with a certain degree of discomfort or acrimony)?

You have your own personal strengths that help you to make your changes more persistent - do you feel like you're using those strengths to your advantage?

I think it is interesting you want to 'soak up' the affection from your W and yet you recognize that in doing so you may use it all up. It's kind of a 'precious resource' paradigm that you seem to have formed..

I'd like to propose that you try some kind of realistic self-affirming thinking every day or so for a week, and see if that maybe makes your W's affection look a little different to you. Not less valuable - but maybe it becomes easier for you to accept what she has to offer at the moment without that feeling of needing to 'soak it up.' Maybe it even becomes a little sweeter because you see it as something she chooses to give you?

[Psych77]

Hi, AC!

Do feelings ever become educated?

Ha, ha, ha! No.

But you are right, the thoughts that trigger those feelings, and my response to the feelings are better targets for my efforts. It's just that it's not easy...like trying to think clearly when a 5 year old is having a temper tantrum right in your ear.

I think that you are doing very well with your changes. I wouldn't play it down just because they don't feel as dramatic anymore. Maybe that means they are sticking?

I never really thought of it that way. But maybe a change, once it has become a consistent part of a new behavioral repetoire, no longer feels like a change.

I just sometimes get afraid that I am losing "momentum." Does that make sense?

It is interesting that you perceive that your wife is nervous, but at the same time enjoying the new improved Psych. Do you think that her nervousness is solely based in a fear of your behavior?

I take her cautious re-approaching of me as her being nervous. By nervous I mean that she is liking the changes, but is afraid to rely on them, to expect that they will be there. I have a long history of working my butt off to convince her that things will be better, only to slump back into my old habits once the heat was off. I think she is afraid that if she lets her guard down she will be disappointed, or, worse yet, will be on the receiving end of one of my "meltdowns." I think she is very cautious and guarded, and probably experiences fear every time she feels herself start to trust, and open back up to me. At least, this is what it looks like to me - we will have a wonderful night, and the next morning she will be cool. The affection (touch is definitely my LL) is not there for long once the sex is over. The same pattern happens when W opens up to me (slightly) in conversation. She closes up pretty quickly after.

Is it possible that in making your changes and confronting yourself in the way that you have, is changing a dynamic in the relationship that takes you both out of the 'comfort' cycle (I think its entirely possible to be 'comfortable with a certain degree of discomfort or acrimony)?

Again, this is another way of looking at things I had not considered. Many people make themselves very comfortable with abject misery. This is why people avoid getting out of bad jobs, delay making positive life changes and <sigh> cling onto dysfunctional patterns in relationships. It happens all the time. It probably is part of what is happening with me.

You have your own personal strengths that help you to make your changes more persistent - do you feel like you're using those strengths to your advantage?

I am aware of a few personal strengths that I have - my intellect and analytical ability being chief among them. If I have any strengths in the area of interpersonal relationships, I have not become aware of them. Most of the differences in social ability I have noticed in myself are impairments. I often feel like an alien among humans. But it is possible that I have some things that could be helping me make these changes work. I will have to think about that.

I think it is interesting you want to 'soak up' the affection from your W and yet you recognize that in doing so you may use it all up. It's kind of a 'precious resource' paradigm that you seem to have formed.

Not so much "precious resource." More that I perceive W as being ready to give only so much right now. She has been hurt a lot, and each time she opens up a little, she withdraws again. And if I try to move in looking for more, I come across as needy and demanding, and that closes her up even further. Right now, she needs space. I think she has to meet a welcoming environment when she is ready to open up, but one that accepts when she does not feel comfortable trusting that much. If I treat any time she opens up to me as an opportunity to cling to her again (as I have done for a long time), I will be discouraging the very thing I want.

I'd like to propose that you try some kind of realistic self-affirming thinking every day or so for a week, and see if that maybe makes your W's affection look a little different to you. Not less valuable - but maybe it becomes easier for you to accept what she has to offer at the moment without that feeling of needing to 'soak it up.' Maybe it even becomes a little sweeter because you see it as something she chooses to give you?

Thank you, I think I'll take you up on that. Will have to record progress in this along with my regular postings.

I said it before, whether you know it or not, you have a very firm grasp on cognitive therapy.

[aeolianchaos]

I just sometimes get afraid that I am losing "momentum." Does that make sense?

Yes. No.

What does it look like to have constant momentum?

What does it look like to no have momentum?

Is it truly possible to stop changing?

I have a long history of working my butt off to convince her that things will be better, only to slump back into my old habits once the heat was off. I think she is afraid that if she lets her guard down she will be disappointed, or, worse yet, will be on the receiving end of one of my "meltdowns."

What do you think would be a realistic alternative to this?

Are there things about the changes you are making this time that might reduce the potential for a'meltdown' or a 'backslide'?

I am aware of a few personal strengths that I have - my intellect and analytical ability being chief among them. If I have any strengths in the area of interpersonal relationships, I have not become aware of them. Most of the differences in social ability I have noticed in myself are impairments. I often feel like an alien among humans

They are only impairments to the extent that you allow them to be.

I found it interesting that you focused on interpersonal relationship strengths, given that the way you express yourself here demonstrates that you have a deep and meaningful intrapersonal experience.

That feeling of Alien-ness. Sometimes its fun to pretend they are the one's from another planet.

[Psych77]

AC, will return to your questions later (you have some good stuff, there), but right now I just have a little time at work, and need to type up what is going on now.

A couple of nights ago, I woke W up to ask her a question. Fairly trivial, and I won't muddle this up by specifying. She was a little irked that I had woken her up for that, so I apologized and let her go back to sleep.

Last night, when I got home, W was completely cold with me. After the kids were in bed, I asked her what was wrong, and she was still angry about my having woken her up, as she has been complaining of sleeping poorly lately, and she felt as though I had showed total disregard for her. I apologized again, and admitted I had been inconsiderate. This did not warm her up any, but I have been learning to be honest with my faults, apologize sincerely, then leave the forgiving up to her, instead of continuing to beg forgiveness, which doesn't really seem to do any good.

I went to bed, and when she came later, she opened up the converation again. OK, no problem. She was talking about how my treating her inconsiderately was not a mistake, because a mistake is when something happens a few times and then changed, and she stated that I have been continuously treating her as if she doesn't count. She made this point a couple of times (I having said nothing until this point), and then I finally opened my mouth to speak(I had been taken aback by her statement that I had consistently treated her as not counting, and had intended to ask her, respectfully, to tell me how I had done this). This was a HUGE mistake. She became livid, and said, "And now you're going to interrupt me?! You're an @$$hole!" I apologized for interrupting her, but didn't dare speak a word beyond that. She climbed into bed, and said "*%$# you!" then turned over to sleep. As she was presumably done speaking, I started to speak again. I did not even get the first word out, when she said, "I don't want to hear it! #*%& you!"

Now, I know that surrendering the bed is not a good strategic move. But W had, apparently, laid down her terms. She had spoken her utter contempt for me, and wanted that to be the last word of the conversation. I didn't think that staying in bed, nice and cozy with her, when she had spoken like that to me, conveyed much self respect on my part. I took my alarm clock and went to sleep on a couch we keep in the basement. W poked her head in and shouted down the stairs to remember to take my alarm clock and cell phone.

I came back upstairs, told her I had already remembered my alarm clock, but thanked her for reminding me to take my phone (I was on call for work, last night). I also apologized for interrupting her, and explained what I had intended to ask, explaining that I was very sorry to hear that I had been treating her so disrespectfully. She did not answer my question, but did say "thank you," in response.

I still went downstairs rather than trying to climb back into bed with her, I'm not sure why. It wasn't until I got a call from work, and had to come upstairs (cell phone reception is pretty poor in the basement) that I decided to get back into bed.

I didn't try to cuddle with her, just to establish a respectful presence. She pulled a bit of bedsheet on which I had laid out from under me and put it on top of me. I interpreted this as an expression of the fact that she hates it when I lie on top of covers she is laying under (she feels restrained). Later, I wondered if this had been an invitation to get closer. If it was, then I might have been seen as rejecting her. I know that when I have pulled away from her affection after arguments in the past she has taken it as rejection (honestly, I had just felt disrespected and felt uncomfortable accepting her affection at that point. I needed to know that she didn't hold me in contempt before I felt comfortable opening up to her advances. It was kind of what I needed in order to respect myself.) Anyway, I kind of wish I had come closer to her this time - her thanking me for what I had said showed a kind of appreciation for my point of view such that I could have lived with getting closer at that point.

So, fast forward to today. I have been upset and depressed all morning. I didn't mean to mistreat W at all. I feel so powerless - knowing that I can mean the best for her, and it means nothing, because I can still be treating her with (from her point of view) total disregard. It's hard not to ask myself if I am even capable of being a good husband for her. I feel so clumsy and stupid. And lonely.

Anyway, I needed to put that up here. If anyone has anything to offer that could help...I'm not exactly sure where to go from here. What do I do or say when I get home from work tonight?

[Rick1963]

Psych I'm pretty new here but I remember reading in DR under goals, I believe, where MWD states to think of "will what I'm about to do get me closer to my goals or move me further away"? I guess waking her up was inconsiderate. MWD also talks about looking into her eyes when they speak and do not interrupt.I think what you did was persuing or maybe a little needy, not too attractive to W. Just my 2c. Hang in there

[Endeavour]

Pysch, I'm reading yet another book right now (How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It) and it's quite interesting.

Here’s a brief summary of some of the basic premises found in the book (Although, I've only read about a quarter of the book):

Men and women have biological differences in their reactions to stimulus; these are enhanced through patterns of socialization. As a result, women largely seek to avoid fear, and men largely seek to avoid shame.

The worst thing women do in their relationships with men is to shame them in many little (and sometimes larger) ways — correct them, criticize them, nag them, etc.

The worst thing men do in their relationships is to leave their wives “married but alone" --&#148; failing to include their wives in their activities and decision-making, or trigger their wives feelings of fear and lack of safety via angry outburts and stonewalling.

It’s disconnection, not lack of communication, which results in many issues between spouses.

In the situation you described above, it seems clear your W is reacting to your past behaviour (the angry outburts that you mentioned) and therefore her level of anxiety was raised by her feeling that you were disrespecting her. She "interprets" this behaviour as more of the same.

Yes, her reaction was over the top (and she shouldn't be swearing at you) but her response was quite possibly fear based and resulted from the cumulation of issues. (I believe you did admit that you shouldn't have woken her so no 2x4 from me.)

Also interesting, the book has a list of traumatic experiences/issues that women mark with a true or false answer. The more true items, the greater a woman's fear/anxiety based responses. Based on your wife's childhood history and your past history of angry outburts, I'm going to guess that she could probably mark a lot of true answers, including: living with an angry person, living with a controlling or anxious person, physical abuse in childhood, etc.

The greater number of True answers = the higher your sensitivity to fear and anxiety. (I had a high number of True answers, not surprisingly.)

That said, I believe you already understand all of this (you're extremely intelligent and self-aware despite the fact you feel like an alien). I guess aliens are brilliant.

Anyway, I found it also interesting (for lack of a better word) that your response today seemed to be that of shame because according to the book men struggle with not being able to make their wives happy, which results in them stonewalling or withdrawing, and also of course angry outburts (which you seem to have under control) due to shame. However, the slightest incident of disrespect seems to send your W back to that time period, and coupled with her past history, her reaction is extreme (telling you to F off twice. Yikes). On some level, however I do understand her reaction and it's something I've struggled with as well. Many times my reactions to my H were aggressive and uncalled for but I realize now that they were reactions to fear. I felt disrespected and unsafe. That doesn't excuse them in the least, but somehow understanding what triggers them gives me an even greater ability to control them.

According to the book, talking about issues doesn't help the R but that the changes come with emotional attunement and connection, which is not achieved by words but by actions. Even small gestures. Yes, perhaps your W offering you the sheet was an olive branch? It's probably best to see things as positives rather than negatives if they will bring us closer to our goals. (Still struggling with this myself.)

Well, I'm not sure if any of this will make sense (or even help) because I'm not always best at explaining myself in the written word, but your incident reminded me of some of what I had read today, and I thought I'd share.

[Psych77]

AC

Are there things about the changes you are making this time that might reduce the potential for a'meltdown' or a 'backslide'?

I guess the GALing (which I am having to focus more on, now) is probably one of the biggest things that helps the changes to stick. You know, doing the changes because I want them to be a part of me, rather than because I want to convince W that I am changing. I am still scared that I will "rubber band" back to my old ways, but I think I am going more in the right direction now than before.

Not that this makes any difference to W - yet. The only way she will know something is different is when she sees the changes stick. And how long they have to stick before she sees a difference...well, I don't know.

You mentioned me having a "meaningful intrapersonal experience." I guess in a way it is more meaningful to me because I have to explore it. I am not always naturally aware of my feelings. So, sometimes I have to explore before I understand what is going on with me. Of course, having difficulty knowing my own feelings, naturally I have difficulty reading the emotions of others - facial expressions, body language, etc. Even what is implied in what they say is often lost on me. That is where I often feel at a disadvantage. I guess the upside is that what I do know about my feelings is consciously learned, so I can process it rationally. There has to be some upside to this, right?

You said it is sometimes fun to pretend that other people around us are the aliens. This sounds like you have some familiarity with this kind of isolation. How?

E -

OK, I guess I have another one on my reading list. Interesting, how one book gives what seems like a comprehensive instruction for fixing things, then another book expands in detail on one area. In DR, author tells us we have to love our spouse the way they want to be loved, then in 5LL, a different author goes into how to know how your spouse wants to be loved, and how to show that kind of love. I look forward to reading this one, as your synopsis strikes a few chords. Certainly the bit about men avoiding shame rings true.

I've been told how self-aware I am, but it seldom feels that way. That is to say, I play myself a great Monday-morning quarterback, knowing after the fact how I behaved, why I did, what I should have done, and how I was letting my emotions instead of my thoughts govern me. Knowing it in the moment is a different thing.

Things have been kind of calm for a few days, and I have had a little time to think. Looking at my past posts, I am realizing how rapidly my perception of my M shifts - one day thinking things look better, only a day or two later feeling threatened - and at each moment failing to recognize how quickly it can change. When I feel scared for our M, I can only see dark ahead, and when things feel a little better I completely forget that only a day or two ago it seemed like the end. In other words, the roller coaster ride is largely of my own making. (Funny, I remember when I used to like roller coaster rides, but this one isn't so much fun )

I am also realizing that I have a very hard time relaxing and letting things happen. Even when we didn't have a painful history to struggle with, W didn't fall in love with me overnight (well, actually, we kinda did fall in love overnight, but I am rational enough to know this is not something you can expect). At any rate, looking at myself, I am realizing that I get frustrated because we are not "in love" again, forgetting that it's a pretty good start that we are just comfortable with each other. I mean, being calm and comfortable is what allows room for other feelings to develop, right

If I can just get a few of these matters down, DBing will be a lot easier.

[aeolianchaos]

I am still scared that I will "rubber band" back to my old ways, but I think I am going more in the right direction now than before.

What would it look like if your changes stuck?

Is there a point where you become 'deformed' beyond being able to spring back into your old ways?

What changes do you enjoy the most?

And how long they have to stick before she sees a difference...well, I don't know.

Based on what you've said, she sees the difference. Maybe, however, she does not accept that the difference is real and something she can relax into yet. That part is up to her, but the more consistent you are, the more the evidence piles up in your favor.

That is where I often feel at a disadvantage. I guess the upside is that what I do know about my feelings is consciously learned, so I can process it rationally. There has to be some upside to this, right?

Many people never consciously explore or seek to really understand their feelings beyond the most obvious levels. They spend a lot of their lives reacting to what they 'feel' without ever actually learning to distinguish between feelings and thus broadening their palette of response.

You are consciously choosing to do those things - learn about your feelings and emotions and apply some real thought to how they work and what they mean. Perhaps the fact that it doesn't come quite as naturally for you is not a disadvantage right now, because you are able to really examine some of this stuff without the preconceived notions that others might be subject to.

MWD talks abut 'Start with a Beginner's Mind.' Perhaps your mindset allows you to do this in a way that is meaningful and maybe removes some cognitive distortions that someone like me might be more prone to engage in.

You said it is sometimes fun to pretend that other people around us are the aliens. This sounds like you have some familiarity with this kind of isolation. How?

I won't presume to be exactly familiar with the isolation that you perceive, but I have spent a lot of time alone and often struggled to understand how I relate to the world around me.

Sometimes it is nice to think that perhaps I am relatively 'normal' and it is people around me who are like some kind of alien life form - often massing and converging in an almost amoebic way that has a logic I can't seem to recognize.

The truth is though, they all have their own unique stories and we are all having some kind of human experience that is universal yet completely separate from one another. None of us can have someone else's experience. Perhaps through the eyes of one of someone else, I myself am just another amoeba whose path is without any clear logic or sense.