I've got 54 days to receive a miracle.

[AntoniaB]

Wow. She's batchit, Tad, just batchit crazy ;-)

It's interesting that the more you were short and to the point, the more she just went off. (But recall that if you were the opposite, "old Tad", where you pushed rel. talk a lot, she also went off. So the one change is that YOU aren't getting worked up so much anymore, which is good).

There are a couple of things you have in there that were DB "mistakes", the one that jumps out is the "I want you in my life" but I don't know that she even really "heard" it so much as she took it and twisted it on you. She seems to be making a case for you being in her life ONLY on her terms, and her terms are a friendship and nothing more, and that's not healthy for you right now. A friendship can occur with a divorce situation FAR from the initial impact, but it just can't be negotiated right now as your attachment is too great, and I think you already know that, which is why you're trying to pull away.

I take it these are text transcripts here, and that this isn't your memory but the actual back and forth? If so, boy Tad, she is masterful at manipulation. MASTERFUL. I mean, as a former manipulative person with my XH (on other issues of course) I can recognize it well. She is adept at turning everything on you SO fast that your head has to be spinning, and of course so much of this is projection of her own faults onto you. I'm not saying you never did anything wrong in your marriage, but it is clear that she is trying desperately to make you take 100% of the heat now.

Look even the "mommy wants some Tylenol" is pure manipulation. It says "I'm here, and you're not kissing my butt anymore by coming out here and talking to me and giving me a punching bag, so I'm going to pout outside but remind you that I'm here AND my head hurts and that's probably your fault too."

Honestly. She is masterful. And if this isn't "her" in personality, then you know even more now why you have to get the heck away from her as often as possible.

It is DRIVING HER NUTS that you won't tell her ONE THING. My 2 cents? She knows it has to do with the both of you--and she likely knows it relates to the anniversary since the post would have a date on it and she knows you didn't contact her--and by NOT telling her about it, you're denying her the opportunity to cut you down again with some comment like "I told you I'm done. Now why can't we just be friends?"

I'll tell you, it felt good TO ME to see you not give in to her in places here, because I know that that means that you are taking some power back for yourself. In fact I probably spent too much time myself analyzing her behavior, but I did it for one purpose, to tell you that she is completely and utterly unreachable. I recognize manipulation when I see it because I used to be so good at it before I got MY head straight, and people who do that sort of thing do it because they are SO insecure, and have such poor self-esteem, that it gives them a high to have control over others.

Regardless of how confident she comes off, or how happy, or whatever, she isn't. She's actually fighting you becoming your own person, and that's scary.

What you should take from this is that you must work to limit the interactions even more, and if that means flat out ignoring texts or emails altogether or WALKING AWAY MID-CONVERSATION, then do it.

You try to do that by saying things like "have a good weekend" or "it's not important, talk to you later", stuff like that. But then she comes back at you again and you feel you have to respond. Well, don't.

Better yet, when you say "have a good weekend", then immediately turn your phone off, vibrate too. Step away from the phone. Turn it on hours later. By then yeah, there may be texts stacked up. Hit delete. Don't even read them.

[AJM]

I cannot emphasize what AB said enough Tad. I read that and saw the same thing. As the father of a teenager (two if you count the ex and what she positioned me as) I can say I saw the exact same things. I think DB doesn't have a real place in your relationship right now, but rather is a way to describe what you need to do for YOU.
I can tell you mine did very similar things. Friendship? If you just met her, would you want to be friends with her? I doubt it, unless you're masochistic in a bad way.

The manipulation of that conversation was overt and scary. Distance for you is to allow YOU to heal. To grow. You are, but she very much wants to control things. That's a hallmark from what I've seen. Mine did very similar and it wasn't until reading some other posts and talking to some friends that I realized what she was doing - using me to fuel her anger. I was the radioactive material that she was (and still would) using to continue her anger. I took that away for ME. I needed to stop that. I have stopped that many times over time now, and didn't realize I'd allowed it again in other ways.

What she is doing is pushing you away AND holding on to you. In her twisted way, it makes sense to her, but it isn't respectful and it isn't a healthy relationship. You pusing her away makes her think because it means she doesn't have the control over you she wants. Think of it this way, she is confused, angry, guilty, etc. She is scratching, clawing, pushing, kicking whomever gets close to regain control. You cannot be that object because you would be damned if you did. She would pour that poison into you if she could. You can't let her, Tad. If you do, you will be lost. Seriously. Step back and get some distance as hurricane W gets stronger. You'll see the eye of the hurricane before long, but resist going back because it will start up again. She has a long way to go to be "done" with what she is doing.

Right now, her plans are not working as she envisioned them. Very discouraging right? She wants to be the victim and will sacrifice anyting and especially you to be that. That is NOT healthy and will lead to really bad things and permanent damage beyond what you see now.

She reminds of a teenager Tad. You handle that lovingly and at a distance remembering it's not about you.

Focus back on you and the boys and hang in there. She is working on things, I can see that. So are you. She may yet surprise you, but it's a long way from over, Tad. For you both.

Be well my friend!

AJ

[25yearsmlc]

Tad

what they said^^^.

iF this is a verbatim quoting of the texts, she's...um, very difficult now.

I cannot imagine why you'd want to be friends with her Tad...let alone more


Don't put up with batchit crazy anymore. Don't tolerate it. She's not respecting you and I have a feeling if you actually enforced some boundaries and detached/went dark

she'd want back in...but I can' say I care whether she does. Good grief.

SHE needs to stop lashing out-which you cannot control.

YOU need to stop tolerating it, which you can do.

Turn the phone off, don't FB in a way she sees or partially block her or fully, whatever!!


no need to answer your phone right off. If I got a wacky text about a gf from 6th grade, I'd have probably said "That's so far in the past I can't even go there b/c I'm living in the present now. Gotta go, have a great weekend" and turn the phone off. She may be able to see you had not read the texts, which means she can't keep spinning on you.

The fact that she notices who friends you is amazingly UNDetached of her.

Go dark and back off this wacky woman til she learns that she cannot push your buttons anymore...who knows, she may decide SHE has a problem to work on...

but stay away from crazy stuff. Who needs it?

[tadpole1025]

Thanks guys. I'm glad to get your input because I thought maybe I was making more of things than I needed to. Hearing you guys and gals tell me that she is nuts actually helps me a little. I know....weird. Snodderly, MHL, Jack and Cadet, are you guys out there? I'd love to hear your thoughts on my post above.

As to the question about whether this was from my memory or transcripts, they are transcripts from the texts. I re-typed them word for word. I know....sad huh?

There are a couple of things you have in there that were DB "mistakes", the one that jumps out is the "I want you in my life" but I don't know that she even really "heard" it so much as she took it and twisted it on you.

Interesting Antonia. She actually acusses me of being the one that twists things.

Honestly. She is masterful. And if this isn't "her" in personality, then you know even more now why you have to get the heck away from her as often as possible.

Do they know they are doing this?

Regardless of how confident she comes off, or how happy, or whatever, she isn't. She's actually fighting you becoming your own person, and that's scary.

Scary to her? She is a very good actress if she really isn't happy.

If you just met her, would you want to be friends with her? I doubt it, unless you're masochistic in a bad way.

No, but I am so damn attracted to her. I wish I could post a picture here. She is absolutely beautiful to me. Although I will admit that she has lost a lot of her looks since this mess began.

The manipulation of that conversation was overt and scary.

It is sad to me that I couldn't even see the manipulation. Haha. I just thought that she was being a b!tch. I still wonder if she knew that she was doing the manipulating....

What she is doing is pushing you away AND holding on to you. In her twisted way, it makes sense to her, but it isn't respectful and it isn't a healthy relationship. You pusing her away makes her think because it means she doesn't have the control over you she wants.

This is what I don't understand. Why would she want to even hold onto me if she said that she is so done with me? And....why does she want to be friends?

Right now, her plans are not working as she envisioned them.

Well, I know things are not even close to what she had planned, but she still seems happy to me.

She is working on things, I can see that.

Really? If she is, she has a long way to go.....

If this is a verbatim quoting of the texts, she's...um, very difficult now.

Yeah, unfortunately, it was WORD FOR WORD. Wish I was kidding.

If I got a wacky text about a gf from 6th grade, I'd have probably said "That's so far in the past I can't even go there b/c I'm living in the present now. Gotta go, have a great weekend" and turn the phone off.

I know. This was probably the most unbelievable part of the whole conversation. I was a boy for crying out loud. 6th f***ing grade. I still don't believe she brought it up.

The fact that she notices who friends you is amazingly UNDetached of her.

I agree. She's obviously not as "done" as she says she is.

Today was a decent day. I now realize even more how crazy she really is and how I need to distance myself even more. I'm going to pull back.

The passing of our anniversary was tough, but I feel like I may have turned a corner since then. It is a small corner, but a corner is still a corner right?

I still do have a hard time "not believing" things she says. Like, when she says that she is done. I want to tell myself that it is the fog talking, but then I wonder if I am just in denial...

Thanks for everything.

Tad

[AntoniaB]

You asked if she knows she is being manipulative and I can give you some insight on that again, as a person who formerly would manipulate my XH into doing what I wanted for a long time. This was MY role in the negative side of our marriage, that because of my insecurities, I'd manipulate him into doing or being what I wanted.

In my experience, I knew I was doing it in the beginning. Let's take a simple thing. We'd get asked to go see his family on a holiday weekend to his sister's house an hour or so away. I'd not want to go, because I'd want to spend the whole weekend with him, and because I had such issues with shyness and insecurity that I'd be a wreck around his family, not knowing what to talk about, etc. But I also know his family was abusive towards him as a kid and not very kind even when he was an adult.

So to "get out" of doing what I didn't want to do, I'd start to sweet talk--I'd say "honey, let's go do something FUN this weekend. How about I make you an amazing dinner, and we'll watch some movies, have some wine, etc." He'd say "but we're supposed to go to my sister's for the day." I'd then pout. "What, don't you want to spend time with me?" And he'd say well yeah, but my family...If he argued against me, and my sweet talk didn't work, eventually I'd turn it. I'd say look, they are never very kind when we DO visit. So why do you want to put yourself through that? And it would go on and on until he would then make an excuse and we wouldn't go. If we DID still plan to go, I'd always seem to get sick. Rather, I'd not feel "great", but I'd make it into worse than it was. Invariably, I'd control the whole outcome.

Yes, I was a cold-blooded b*tch sometimes. I had a million excuses to rationalize that behavior, and bottom line? He liked how much it put us into this "us vs. them" mode and he liked that I would move mountains to be with him and him alone. Until he didn't like it anymore and he tried to change and I resisted.

I'm telling you all this so you understand, that on some level, a person who uses manipulation to control another person does know what she is doing--to a point. But when that characteristic defines her, she no longer "knows" she is doing it. It's automatic in her behavior. In the early days, I used to feel badly when I could control my XH, but as the years went on and it became the way we operated, all that would remain of my guilt would be a sick little feeling in the pit of my stomach when I did it. And I learned how to ignore that feeling.

NOW, that I'm so "reformed", I don't get the sick feeling, because I just don't manipulate people anymore to achieve something. I control myself, I don't control others or wish to control them.

I think if she does know she is being this way, she is able to look away from it. She reminds me of me when I was at my worst in that she is willing to hurt you and take your power totally away from you because she is so afraid that the house of cards she has erected to combat her own insecurities is going to come crashing down. She is sacrificing YOU to save herself in the only way she knows how to right now. You can't teach her another way to save herself. It's what is working for her now and she's DARN good at it.

Well, the answer is don't let her make you a sacrifice. Get away from her.

Look this is just a thought I had, in comparing our situations: I was the manipulator/controller and my XH was the one manipulated who often lacked control in his life. When he left me, he became the old me. He became like your wife (though less venomous) and he started to twist and manipulate me. And I became the one controlled, until I learned to walk away and detach from him. Now I'm really "reformed" and I don't honestly know where he is on this path anymore.

I wonder, in your marriage, were you ever a manipulator or controlling person? Did you ever try to manipulate a situation to your own advantage? Did you do this often with her? If you did, then why? Were you insecure, have self-esteem issues, etc?

This is what people say about "digging deep"; you need to look at the facets of your own behavior that might be destructive so that you learn how not to repeat your patterns. I'll tell you, reading her words, it makes me remember in some ways the way I could be when I was at my worst (and I still can't hold a candle to her!) and honestly, I'm embarrassed that I was like that and wish I could take a lot of that back!

[AntoniaB]

Also...people who use manipulation to control others do it for the boost to their self-esteem, the whole "I can make people do things..." She wants to keep you as a friend so she can continue to do this. If you aren't in her life, she loses the ability to control you...which is a blow to her self-esteem. It's not your job to build her self-esteem by being there for her to tear you down. She needs to learn to get her self-esteem from within or from doing for other people and not by controlling them.

[MHL]

Any vets want to chime in?

Tad

Yeah......

Close FB.

Don't Block

Don't not post.

Don't not read her posts.

Just close it......it will still be there later like you never went away......trust me.

I closed mine for a while.

You had a life before FB......

H@ll we all did.

I absolutely hate the fact that we gauge our relationships by what the f@ck is on FB.

I can not tell you how much I read on thread after thread on

all the interpretations

all the misinterpretations

all the implications

all the posing

all the posturing

all the specutlating

IT IS ALL BULLCH!T

and it makes everyone involved CRAZY.

TAD........do yourself the biggest favor in the world.

CLOSE Facebook NOW.

YOUR LIFE WILL CONTINUE ON.........

and it will be better.

Cheers

[25yearsmlc]

I'm with MHL on this. Do it. Now.

So what if she's not done with you? She's making you nuts. Save yourself first...

[beatrice]

I agree with them ^^^^^^^

[AJM]

[quote]This is what I don't understand. Why would she want to even hold onto me if she said that she is so done with me? And....why does she want to be friends?
....
Well, I know things are not even close to what she had planned, but she still seems happy to me[quote]Really Tad? You don't see it? It was pointed out to you in a later point, at least one possible reason. But to be honest, you can search for why for a very long time. And still you may not find it. What is important is that it is. That's living it in the moment and letting the rest go. The rest is not working for you and is not healthy. Let it go. The why is not going to change things. It will not change the what, but it will make you crazier than she is.

Realize that her being happy... let's just say that you have proven to be too close to the situation to effectively judge that. Let's leave it at that, shall we?

If you have to look at what she does and says, only look at what is in the moment and treat it as such. Don't look back nor forward with the actions.

Drop FB. It's not helping nor will it. It's part of your old life and has no place in your new except to hurt you. Let it stay turned off.

Be good to you, Tad. Show others how you should be treated

AJ