Hi all, first post here, though I've been on other forums for a while.
Without going into too much detail initially, here's my story...
In January of this year, my wife told me that she was done. This came after me asking her to try and figure out why she had been unhappy last fall. Her answer, after talking with someone who remains anonymous, was that the problem was me. We had been through tough times before, but always had the love to fall back on. This was different; from that moment onward she has said she didn't know if she wanted me to be a part of her life, and in May that got amended to she knew that she didn't want me. We have 3 children, ages 6, 3 1/2, and 2.
Before I found out about help books and websites, I began my own somewhat lacking version of the 180. I got much of it right, but I missed the emotional part big time. Although she had never said that she wanted it to work out between us (since January), she didn't switch that to she was done until I made a few more mistakes.
Regardless, I reached the point of becoming more aware of my emotional behavior about 2 months ago, but by that point I think she'd already passed the point of no return. We seem to be relatively on the same page as far as how we got to where we are (neglect in marriage, though she still points the finger at me and not at herself at all), but we are far from agreeing on where to go from here.
The last several months, since June or so, it's been relatively calm, but in early August when I asked what her intentions were, she reiterated she was done. We both were upset, but agreed to work together for the best course. She asked me to move, I initially agreed, then later came to my senses and said I couldn't walk out on my children. Though we have both been seeing IC, we haven't yet seen an MC. I explained, which made her angry at first, that I couldn't in good conscience walk away from my children's everyday lives without knowing I'd done everything possible to make it work.
She said that she didn't like it, but would go. A few weeks later, she gets angry because I'm still around. We'd been able to go do some things together, I though and still enjoy each others company. However, she told me she was trying to be nice, and really didn't like being around me. I got upset (oops) and told her to stop pretending. Don't be nice if she doesn't want to be, and don't go anywhere with me if she doesn't want to go. Unfortunately, she's the one who usually has the plans, so I get left behind a lot. I say that I can't live in an environment where she despises my very presence, and inform her that I'll start looking for an apartment A.S.A.P.
In my fix-it personality, I find things that I haven't brought up yet that somehow may make sense to her, or so I think. I bring up a reasoning appeal: the next 2 years are going to suck but will eventually get better. The major difference in paths will be the impact on the kids lives. From a reasonable person point of view, I think this may make her think a bit. She gets defensive, says that I'm throwing things in her face to hurt her (I was advised shortly after that it's all going to hurt, I can't stop that but I can't not be honest). I don't want to hurt her, but I'm done letting her drive the bus.
Since she came to me in January, she's driven the direction we've taken to not work on our marriage. The things I've done have had no impact, and she's decided that even though she's the one who wants out, I should be the one to move out since she's the breadwinner. She doesn't value my 6 years as a Stay at home Dad, and views the house and its contents as hers. This is a sticking point for me. I don't want anything but to not have to leave my children...
The day after I try my reason appeal, she comes and says that she thinks it would be best if I stayed in the house for a smoother transition from marriage to divorce. She wants to work out what we think will be best. She thinks it will be easier for schedule, finances, and the children. I tell her I'd be glad to stay, and am very glad that she wants to work together. I mention that we haven't been working together since January, that she's been driving the divorce process. I say again that I'd be glad to work together, regardless of the outcome, just to have some sort of agreement would be nice.
She gets upset when I tell her that she's been driving the divorce, and the bus, and leaves the room saying, "I guess we'll talk about it in therapy".
...........
Okay, that's the quick story. There are far more details that may shed some light, and I'm happy to answer questions if asked. Now for my current issue.
Every time anything positive is said, I gain a little hope. In and of itself, there is no issue with that. The problem arises when she notices via my disappointment when something doesn't pan out the way I was expecting. I need a new perspective that allows me some hope while diminishing my expectations. As I've read on other topics here and other places, there is the conflict of her still caring, and her trying to detach herself from me. Difficult to watch, and I'm sure difficult to do. It throws me for a loop, and I need a better way to handle it.
She doesn't respond well at all to non-communication, it makes her very angry. Our best and most comfortable time together is usually talking about the kids or her job/life. I don't bring up my life, she isn't interested anymore, but she can't seem to stop talking about her life to me. I listen and respond minimally, but she keeps going. I want to her to see the impact that not having me around will have, but I don't want to push her further away by not interacting. This is the most difficult aspect of the 180 for me.
I love the DB book and process, and I can see the benefit for myself, it's just such a hard fit for the type of person that my wife is. Or perhaps it's also hard fit for Fix-it's like me.
how long have u been together? Any specifics about those type of things help.
Plus I guess u are on moderation so your posts will get buried at first. Be patient, keep posting...journal, and the posts will start showing up quickly eventually.
I'm SO sorry you have found yourself here, but the experienced DBers and those who have been successful will help you a TON!!!!
Me (f): 45 W(f) 35 T: 13 y C: S4 adopted at birth 6-18-11 bomb: I want to break up 8-28-11 OW confirmed
have you read the book(s) Divorce Busting or the 2nd and better one, "Divorce Remedy" yet? Please do so asap so you understand the approach here. It's step #1.
Your decisions and approach have been so so. Not horrible but not helpful and not the Div busting way yet.
So read the book(s) so you "get it" for this site.
At DB, We take the simple but radical concept of solution based therapy-- finding and doing more of what works in a marriage, and
less/none of what does not.
Sounds like you don't know what works but are doing some of what does not.
Don't focus so much on how you got here or what happened to you when you were 12 or the molestation your w may have endured.
all those things matter, but are not addressed HERE b/c we're all about
solution based therapy. Be here now.
Own what you must about your part in getting here, even though it sounds as if you are not.
Meaning, what is it about YOU that you can change and feel good about?
Bottom line if your w doesn't want to be married to you as you are now.
So in order for HER to want to be married to YOU,
she must believe the marriage can improve which probably means she has to believe
YOU are changing. Or her 'Data" isn't real. So if she says you are hot tempered, you become uber calm and laid back
if she says you never help around the house, YOU HELP!
Be the best dad you can be now too. No woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her child with their father. It's a turn on for many and a reason to stay for others...plus your kids need you now more than ever. [b] Concede some things needed changing in YOU and work on those--
b/c if you don't concede that, nothing will change and she won't come back.
Don't make this about being "right" [/b] make it about being happy, together.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I've read both books and Divorce Remedy helped me the most. Here's a great list of DO's and DON'T's. I hope this helps.
Quoted from Sandi2:
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
how long have u been together? Any specifics about those type of things help.
Be patient, keep posting...journal, and the posts will start showing up quickly eventually.
We've been together for 15 years, married for 12 in October. Ups and down as always but always solid belief that we could make it through anything.
Thanks for the encouragement, and I've read some other journals here. I like the sound of it, and will likely start doing that. Especially once MC starts on Friday.
Oh yeah...keep posting. Maryr_32 is right... all your posts are being moderated, so they are not published immediately. Thus the delay in people responding. They took me out of moderation around my 10th or 15th post.
have you read the book(s) Divorce Busting or the 2nd and better one, "Divorce Remedy" yet? Please do so asap so you understand the approach here. It's step #1.
Your decisions and approach have been so so. Not horrible but not helpful and not the Div busting way yet.
I've read most of Divorce Busting but haven't picked up Divorce Remedy. I agree that it's been so so. I keep trying to fix things when I see progress, and I need to back off that; it just results in falling further back than before progress.
Quote:
Sounds like you don't know what works but are doing some of what does not.
I used to know what works, but since (as far as I can tell) she has no desire to be married to me anymore and views me leaving as the solution to her happiness, I don't know how to apply what I know works to our current situation.
Quote:
Own what you must about your part in getting here, even though it sounds as if you are not.
I think I've actually owned it too much, to the point that my wife sees no fault in herself. I've owned it from the get-go, but I've had to ask, and then suggest what her part in this has been, because she can't ever come up with anything she might have done (or not done) to contribute to the state we find ourselves.
Quote:
Bottom line if your w doesn't want to be married to you as you are now.
Actually, I believe that she does want to be married to the person I am now. The problem is that she feels as though I will let her down again, and become the person I've been for the last 5 years (depressed, etc). Only consistent behavior on my part will change that, and I've been consistent for several months now
Quote:
So if she says you are hot tempered, you become uber calm and laid back
if she says you never help around the house, YOU HELP!
She is actually the hot tempered one, and has gotten physical with me in the past. I've remained calm for the most part over the last 9 months, and the helping around the house thing is one of the things she mentioned. That has COMPLETELY turned around. Everything she has asked of me I've done, and then some. So as far as I can tell there is something she hasn't asked, that I haven't done. And either she doesn't know or she won't tell me what it is.
Quote:
Be the best dad you can be now too. No woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her child with their father.
I've been a stay at home dad for 6 years, and have been a great dad. She thinks that's one of my best qualities. I've even improved the quality of the time I spend with them. They keep my heart lifted when it falls.
Quote:
[b]Concede some things needed changing in YOU and work on those--
b/c if you don't concede that, nothing will change and she won't come back.
While she initially brought up some things that were making her unhappy in January, I took those things and ran with them. I have changed my look, my fitness level, my contribution level around the house, taken charge on some things she wanted me to, and she's been very happy with the result. But something is still missing. There is some change required, I will absolutely conceded that, because if nothing needed to change, we'd be healing by now.
Quote:
Don't make this about being "right" [/b] make it about being happy, together.
To be 100% honest, I've never really cared about being right, especially during this process. I've made it known that I have no desire to prove to her that this was anyones fault. I don't care about being right or wrong, I just care about the happiness of my wife, my children, and me.
Thanks for your reply, hopefully this gives some additional details.
“Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.” ~Zsa Zsa
Got me thinking about why you do marry someone. To me it's because you see the opportunity for growth in every situation you can imagine. When times are good, when they are bad, and everything in-between, you can see your partner their for you.
Which brings me to one of my frustrations. Though I've not stopped hoping, as well as actively making improvements in my and our life, my wife stopped seeing any opportunity for growth between us back in January.
This is a major issue for me. It empowers me in that I know realize that even though the love may have faded, I've always been there and willing to do whatever I could during this process. I've continued to see this as an opportunity for growth. That she no longer has that capability or has switched it off is a major turn-off.
Doing the 180 and not bringing up relationship issues is one of the toughest things I try to keep doing, but I keep thinking that there is something that will break through the barrier.
Does anyone think that some tactful mentioning of Zsa Zsa quote (I'd refrain from the source) and its application would do any good? Or would it likely just cause resentment?
Is it possible she doesn't want to be the sole bread winner anymore BUT doesn't want to tell you that?
Some women won't admit feeling this way b/c it makes them sound unloving or materialistic.
I just think it's an unusual couple that can make having a stay at home dad work, in the long term. I have seen it but it's rare. You need a truly secure sensitive man who doesn't negate his wife's mothering or take swipes at her b/c of his own insecurities
and SHE has to really be okay with his staying at home and not being "a good provider" and whatever she has to hear at work about it.
Also-- your answers to my questions are pretty much that you "Already changed all the things I know to change..." oh, okay...so what's to ask?
Like it's useless/ hopeless or you are missing a secret answer.
The "math of this" is key
consistent changes + sufficient time = changes she can trust.
If you are positive you are not missing something and that you truly have made ALL the changes needed
then it IS simple. Do the math.
You just keep doing it, don't backslide and be the best silver you can be, leaving the results up to God.
(But I'm not convinced you are fully aware of all her true concerns. They do not have to be verbally expressed to be present. Dig deep.)
and fwiw, Divorce Remedy is more helpful imo, b/c it's the 2nd edition and speaks less about why divorce is bad (which we already know) and more about
how to avoid it. Good luck.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
