I completely understand what you are saying, 25...

I don't want to label my W MLC as much in the sense that, with MLC, time is the only answer... at least there was a fighting chance if it is NOT MLC... something I could DO...

In all fairness, my W has been "MLC" for as long as I've known her... lol!

Naw, I just use it as a time benchmark. Nothing I've done worked. I have no idea what else i could have done. And IF I would have done something that worked, I would really not want this person back, especially if she was NOT MLC, and this really is who she wants to be... so if I put it in a MLC time frame, understanding how long it would be before she "snapped out of it" allows me to understand that either way, I'd have a long time before she became anyone remotely that I would actually want to be with... so I might as well move on...

I think that made sense...

In case that isn't clear... if my W is an MLC monster, then I don't want to be with her... and she will be displaying those symptoms for at least another 3 years if she is (according to most "averages" I've seen; IF she's in "replay") or she will always be that monster... I'll pass... grin

She said to me before and stated it again in her "custody" demands, that I could have the kids on their birthdays because she really didn't care if I did... the number of times she's "left the kids" to go party and this type of convo... not "caring"... it just doesn't really sit right with me... I mean, I get that she'd get a baby sitter (or pass them to me), etc. to go do "adult" stuff... I certainly appreciate that... but there's the odor of abandonment that just seems odd... leaving my 13 yr old at home for overnights by herself, while my W goes to a party and sleeps over... just... smells... and she's never had her dad (who lives in the same community) watch the kids when she does this... wouldn't "look right", I'm sure...

IF she was MLC and MLC is a condition of unresolved childhood issues, than it would revolve around the time her parents split when she was around 13 or so for a year, and she began her journey with drugs that included going to school so stoned that she was puking in classes and skipping out to drink and smoke at the local pits where she lived... from what I understand, that lasted at least until graduation, at which point she continued to drink a lot... and again, a reminder that her dad was a booze rep, so she drank a lot of his "samples" that he had stored (boxes of them) during her teen years...

MLC or not, she'd have a lot of unresolved childhood issues that absolutely showed up in her personality throughout her life... oh, and her uncle committed suicide when she was late in her teen years, her cousin (her uncle's son) in his tween years found the body after the uncle committed the act. Woah... way too long a story regarding her family, and that "part" of the family, and blah, blah...

And I will not be using MLC as a label for her to others as some justification for her behaviour... she is who she is... she doesn't need a label to protect her from facing the truths when she looks in a mirror, or other's faces...

The cheating IS a pattern, at least in some degrees... I was not the first "cheat"... she confessed (to the kids, of all people) early this spring, that she had cheated on a BF back when she was 16 or so... said she "regretted it"... bah... I was absolutely a cheat with her (but justified, in her mind; and not public knowledge), so I know she doesn't regret cheating... she just "frames it" in a positive light...

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I do not get into a lot of talk with D13 regarding her bio dad. From what I understand, the contact they have is decent and he's an "OK guy" outside of his addictions, which she is aware of, just never been exposed to, after he was "evicted" from her life when she was 2...

I figure if she wants to talk more about that, she will... I just ask every once in a while about if she's seen or talked to him "recently" and how it went... he still isn't anything "regular" in her life, probably every three or more months between contact at best...

She is doing really well though. Her attitude with me (the "loss" of my regular presence) has changed. We've built a great R, even when I was still with my W, but leaving threw D13, no doubt... but I see in our contact that she really does miss me and loves me very much, even with her teenage hormones... lol!

D9 and I are still really close. No sign of distancing... It was interesting though, a little "sad"... she asked me on the way back to my W's on Sunday if I would ever "run away with us"... at first I thought she was talking about "running away to the circus" or something (like escaping life's drama) so I said "sure"... until I realized she was talking about me taking them away from their mom, like we had talked about how many "missing kids" have been abducted by a parent or some relative... I quickly backtracked and said, "absolutely not"...

Many signals there, no matter how you slice it... frown She did appear to process it in a positive light, though... comfortable that I would never steal them away from their mom... again, D13 is aware that apparently her bio dad threatened to abduct her from my W before he "left"...

On a side, I'm guessing my W still went to see her L, even though I said I'd only sign off on a judge's ruling... guess it didn't go as well as she thought, or some other plan is now in motion, because she hasn't updated me on any "good news" from her L meeting, today...

Of all the reasons why she is finally ready to D, I think one of them might stem from some info I'd heard that she might be planning a winter cruise this year with her OM... I'd expect she wants to do it "officially" and publicly and would not be able to, unless we are divorced... no matter her justifications, she never wants to be publicly noted as "cheating"... too much bad press for her career and her familial reputation...