New here, not new to this: Still not easy...

[Luckyclover]

Hi there,

I just finished reading "Divorce Remedy" and enjoy Michele's candor. I've been a member of several other MLC/marriage help forums but I'm depressed already and the "drop that zero and get yourself a hero" responses aren't helping. I understand that it may come to that, my head is not in the sand... I just want to everything I can to save my marriage.

So.... my story...

H and I are both 32. Friends for 16 years, involved for 14 years, married for 10 this year. Two children.. son, 5 and daughter 4.

After the birth of our daughter I got the "I've never loved you" speech, my H went crazy and was replaced by a stranger.. a man no one recognized, not even his parents. He left me for OW#1, burnt through that relationship within a few months, moved with with OW#2.. burnt through that relationship... and finally hit rock bottom after a year of self destructive behavior.

I spent half a year in a puddle on the floor, trying to work through pain I never imagined I'd never feel... then I spent the rest of that year working on myself.. using loans I bought my first house for me and the kids to live in, got a part time job and took a class at a community college.

We spent that year officially separated (he had the divorce papers but never served them to me) and then... a miracle... he knocked on my door. He wanted to talk. He wanted to reconcile. He was a sad, quivering, apologetic mess. I've always let him know that I never wanted to end the marriage and I was more than willing to work it out. As I told him when he walked out on me "my door is closed to you.. but never locked." We took it slow, I helped him move into his own bachelor suite and we started dating again. Eventually, I told him he could move into the house with the kids and I and we starting the process of slowly moving his stuff here.

So we've been three years into happily co-habitation, reconciliation. I felt so blessed... knowing that we worked through an affair, a separation.. and we were still going strong. I felt so lucky to have a second chance.

Problem was, looking back now, that he was spending three years with me slowly going crazy with boredom. H has always been a social butterfly and I, a house mouse. This never bothered either of us and I would feel just fine with him going out and spending time with his friends. Problem was that during our separation he burnt his bridges with many of our friends (thinking he was building a community of new friends, who abandoned him with his relationship with OW#1 fizzled out) and the other friends who still are fine with him have all moved away. We may have gotten back together but he had no social network anymore.

So for three years, we've been together. He never let me know that he was slowly going crazy without a network of friends to energize him... perhaps he didn't even know until we made a new set of friends this summer. As soon as he made friends with this set of new people... holy cow, did he ever glomp onto them and things changed.

Gone were the nights that we always spent together.. he is constantly messaging and texting them... and one girl in particular he has gotten really close to. They speak (text) throughout the day and more often than not, all evening.

I let him know that it bothered me. That it made me uncomfortable. It made me think that he was in the beginnings of an emotional affair with her. He reacted with anger "What? I can't have any friends now?" Etc. etc.

Not so slowly after a few of our arguments about his new lady friend, "K"... he started spending the evenings at her place. Hanging out with her because she hadn't seen alot of the movies we own and he was watching them with her. Telling me he enjoyed hanging out with her and her son (4)... and that they have alot in common. Evenings turned into nights... he swore to me up and down that he only sleeps on her couch.. altho' he has admitted to me that they fell asleep on the couch together in each other's arms once. ("But we're just friends!") She also confides all her problems to him... childhood abuse, etc... to him and calls him her "white knight".

I know where this is going. He denies all of it but I'm pretty sure that she will one day be OW#3.. if she isn't already.

Two months ago, in the midst of him leaving me for his new friend I got the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" variant speech again. I'm still recovering from it. I spent a few days throwing up and sobbing uncontrollably. Ever since then he sleeps at her place five days a week and over here two days a week.

He's confused... he doesn't know what he wants, he tells me. He tells me he loves me but also tells me that he doesn't love me any more than his other friends. He wants to just be my friend. But neither of us know what's going to happen yet.. (I still love him and don't want to separate) and for right now we're "married friends"... I don't know what any of that means.

He's very uncomfortable talking about love... so I've stopped. Everytime he see's my eyes water up as he's leaving for the night he gets very uncomfortable. He's told me that knowing he's broken my heart and that he disappointments me just kills him and makes him feel like crap.... that's why K is easier to be around. She expects nothing from him and he doesn't disappoint her.

I'm trying to shift my perspective. Trying to disattach from him and choosing to be thankful and appreciative for all the good things he is doing for me and the kids. Trying to be thankful for what I have and not focus on what I'm missing. Some days it's really easy... some days it's not.

And, after a trip to my doctor... I've been put on anti-depressants for awhile (I was not happy about that but my doctor is concerned that I haven't stopped crying off and on for two months) and I'm waiting to hear back from a personal counselor, which I've been placed on a waiting list for. I just have to talk to someone about this who isn't a friend and who doesn't know us... because I don't want to complain to friends and throw my H under a bus... not if there is any chance to save my marriage.

So... here I am... again. This [censored].

[Julz]

Wow! No words. My husband has been gone three months tomorrow after a similar speech (bored, grass is greener, feels numb, etc). I've spent most of today in tears but this is now becoming a rarity compared to the first few weeks.

Do you have kids? Have you read DB or DR? I'd suggest you STOL letting him stay two nights at your place. If he doesn't want you anymore then he needs to move on and look after himself. How are you supposed to heal with him coming and going?

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Lucky,

WARNING-- THIS IS A LONG POST but it's not all from me...

Well, you are indeed "lucky" b/c you came here, which is the right place to be, for a lousy reason.

Sorry for the pain you are in. Very sorry.

So You read the Div Busted book (or was it Div Remedy?--there's a slight difference for me. I preferred the Div Remedy b/c personally, but both were eye openers.

I will post this as if you have read one or more of the books and will use jargon here that applies. (Note that abbreviations here are explained elsewhere on a forum with the word "abbreviation" in the title, in case you have no idea what I mean)..

Most LBSers ask "how do I get him back?" To which we can all hazard guesses...but what we offer as people who've been through something major in our m, sometimes crisis like yours is the benefit of our experience. That mainly translates into lessons we learned about what NOT TO DO...

IOW while I may not know what will turn your h around and get home, I'm pretty good at seeing what will push him further away...Same goes for most veterans here. Beware of the projections though. Many MANY people here are hurting and reaching out, which is bittersweetly beautiful. But their situations are NOT yours...

Take everyone's advice with a grain of salt and recognize where they are coming from, which always colors our views...but in short, we are HERE ON THIS SITE to follow MWD's approach to marriage problems, however we may adapt it to our personal lives.

I'm going to give you a modified list of rules that have been gleaned by some veterans and I just pass them on to guide you some. Most newcomers are bewildered and find these a helpful guide. I read a version of them 6 years ago, over 100 times...to keep remind me of me and what I want and treasure most in life.
These "rules" are based on the Div Busting approach.

Div Busting and MWD's approach to preventing Div and helping m's is unusual.
It's not about why our h's or w's are doing what they are doing, or what happened in their childhoods or how they handled their parent's deaths or whether they are spiritually fulfilled, etc.

THOSE ARE IMPORTANT MATTERS TO ADDRESS...BUT NOT HERE...

Here, we focus on doing what helps our marriages stay together, and doing those things more...and

learning what hurts our marriages and doing those things less, or not at all.

it's a "solution based approach" with a simple but radical concept at its' core.

Stay focussed on what part you played in this crisis, "own it" (meaning you have to CHANGE the traits of yours that are not working in your life--)
and then move forward.

"Owning" your problems does Not mean every criticism your h has of you is valid OR that you must change them all.
What you change in you, is your choice only, and is not changed FOR Him...

You change you for you.

I think of DBing as an approach that first says:save yourself
then says, now we save the marriage.

But you cannot save any relationship without first caring for YOU and being in charge of your own life.

No blaming, no co-dependence, no weird clinging, no transference, projections, self pity wallow parties have to have a time limit, etc...

No one is responsible for our happiness but us.


So, figure out your role in the marital crisis, own it, be the best woman you can be--as in

a woman only a fool would leave,

and leave the results up to God.

I'm extra sorry that you're going thru this a 2nd time. At some point you'll look back at what you did in the first sitch and how you picked yourself up and dusted yourself off,

and voila, he found the grass was not so much greener out there...can YOU pick yourself up again, and do things differently at home?

As for letting him go out with new friends and without you all those nights, I'm not wild about that.

Some might say it means you guys are not "co-dependent" and how secure and enlightened that is...my h and I are already apart for work 4 nights a week.

I think it makes for loneliness in the marriage. And in your sitch it might smell a little like apathy on your part.

You couldn't bear to leave your house just one or two evenings a week --to spend time with your h? What's that about? Yes yes, I read about you being a "mousey homebody type"

but IDK what that means. You lack basic social skills? You have a phobia? Or ar these ways of saying You won't try?

Not judging you but giving a bit of food for thought. And IF it was a mistake of yours, you can repair it. Forgive yourself and don't think for one minute I believe I didn't make a ton of mistakes in my m.

I did.

Anyhow, here are the rules to get you started. Keep posting as it takes awhile for people to check in, esp on weekends.

fwiw-- I don't see your h as having a mid life crisis so much as a specific OW or just wanting to be a WAS, again...Guess his memory of the "good single life" is short.

If you reconcile again, THIS TIME you guys will need some tools you have not had before and must change the marrriage's dynamics or you'll be here again in 5...

make sense? I think there is hope for your m.

5 years ago I'd have given my m a 10% chance of survival but here we are.

And no matter what else happens, as you come to learn from the many great and wise people here

you will be more than alright, with or without your h.

Yes, You really will be.



I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.

21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).

27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.

30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than half of what you see. (IOW, nothing they SAY matters and only half of what the DO might. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared and must justify their choices.

33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

[InAPickle]

Wow Lucky. I admire your resolve to have to go through this a second time. I've only been through this once and metaphorically speaking it damn near killed me.

I've imagined what reconciliation might be like, but holy crap, I never even considered my XW would pull the same stunt a second time.

Enough about me. First thing, take care of yourself and your kids first. Second thing, don't go changing just for change sake. It has to be kind of natuaral, so that it isn't so much hard work, which after a while won't stick, because, well, it was just too much work and not natural. I hope you understand what I mean.

Forgive the "opinion" but from what you've written, your H sounds like a habitual offender. I admire you for wanting to save your marriage, but you should may be think about bounderies, not just for you but for him - do you think he'll ever change? Can you see the two of you growing old together?

Well (unfortunately) at least you have experience. Get yourself to an emotionally healthy place and find your inner happiness without him. Honestly I don't think he's worth crying over rignt now. You'll be getting a lot better advice than mine.

Will keep you in my prayers,
Pickle

[Luckyclover]

Sorry everyone about the censored at the end of my first post. I just said that this s-u-c-k-s... but didn't think it would be considered improper.

Do you have kids? Have you read DB or DR?

Yup - we have DS who turned 5 in March and DD who turned 4 in July. They keep me very busy and I'm so glad that they are both starting kindergarten/pre-school respectively. With all the stress of depression, second seperation/marriage refining.. etc etc... I'll be glad to get them in the school system and give myself some more breathing room.

Yup - Currently reading Divorce Remedy. I've gotten up to Chapter 7 and have stopped there because I haven't given the techniques expressed in previous chapters time to marinate yet. I'm thinking, on top of posting here lots, I should reread the first few chapters again. It's amazing how much I'm learning about what not to do and BOOM! I forget it all as soon as H and I start having a conversation... then I realize how much back sliding I did.

WARNING-- THIS IS A LONG POST but it's not all from me...

Thank you so much for everything you've typed, 25years... I appreciate it all... and find I need to read, re-read and the re-read the "what not to do" rules again. I did have to frequently look up the abbreviations as I went along.

You couldn't bear to leave your house just one or two evenings a week --to spend time with your h? What's that about? Yes yes, I read about you being a "mousey homebody type"

but IDK what that means. You lack basic social skills? You have a phobia? Or ar these ways of saying You won't try?

I'm a stay at home mom and part time illustrator (neither of which are very profitable )and I've always been shy and a bit of a wallflower in large groupings. It's never been a bother for us before, even when I did go out with H and our friends... H would always joke about how his wife was the "quiet on in the corner with her sketchbook." I have, however, since the children came along... been getting out less and less. It didn't bother me because hanging out with friends always seemed like such a chore.. it didn't fufill me or fuel my tank... in fact, it takes the gas out of my tank. I can do it (socialize) and enjoy it but not too often and I always feel really tired afterwards. For H, it's just the opposite - being with others fuels his tank and energizes him. He loves to engage and he loves to help other people with their problems... yes, at a detriment to his own.. :S

I had been going out as often as time, money and schedules would allow with him and his new friends... and giving it my best, because I was happy to see him happy and I wanted to show him that I supported him in his new endeavors (he and the new friends have started a charity group that raises money for various children's organizations, I have been helping out and attending the events) and that I was happy to see him out of the house and doing sometime that fufilled him. I am now, *not* eager at all to go out with his new friends on their gigs because one of them is K, who is is very close to and the other is K's best friend.... H has confided to both that he thinks he and I make better friends and not so good a married couple. K even asked him "So, if you and your W split up... do you ever think we could start dating?" He told me that his answer to that was "No, no.. I don't ever want to get in a relationship again."

Yeah.... don't think I'll be going out to dinner again with that group anytime soon... Many of them know that we are having marriage problems, that H doesn't want to really be more than just a friend... etc. etc. I'd be a bright shade of red the entire time, feeling like the elephant in the room.. wanting to get swallowed up into a hole.

I've been making my own plans and stepping out a little bit with my own friends.

Thank you again for the 37 list of rules. I'm going to carry them in my wallet... because I *know* them but my emotions get the better of me and I willfully seem to forget them with conversation time with H comes up.

Wow Lucky. I admire your resolve to have to go through this a second time. I've only been through this once and metaphorically speaking it damn near killed me.

Thanks... at least I'm doing something admirable.

The way I see it, right now... I'm not a victim.. I'm a volunteer. I have no other men... no other life waiting for me in the wings... I have a marriage I am fully committed to. Whether or not the man I love is committed to it as well is moot. I can't control the way he feels. I know that I can pull the plug on our M if I need too... I just don't want to yet. Call me crazy.. (I do myself, many times) but I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet.

At present.. I'm exploring my options.. I'm willing to redefine our marriage and be "married friends". It's much preferable to having him as an XH (which might happen one day, I realize) or an adversary. This way.. for the time being at least... I have a father for my children and a friend around the house. Problem is.. I've been crying so much he can barely stand to be around me so he's not around the house too often.... I know I have a lot of "me work" to do. His work is his own. I inspired him by example before (he admired how I stood on my own two feet and how strong I became after our first seperation and he once called me "his rock") and I'd like to do so again... if I'm up to it.

Now he see's me as an over-loving, quivering, emotional, romantic mess... and it's sending him running. Sigh. *reads the 37 rules again...*

do you think he'll ever change? Can you see the two of you growing old together?

Do I think he'll change? Not sure... I can't really answer that. I do know that I'd like to change myself first. I don't really like where I am or the dependent mess I've become. I want him in my life.. I really do. Putting love aside (which I aim to try and do but it's hard) I like the guy.. I really do.

Can I see us growing old together? I used to. Now those pictures are fuzzy. I try and stop thinking about the future. It's unwritten and trying to write it is like planning a fairytale, only to get disappointed once you realize it's not all going to pull together the way you were hoping. I'm thinking much more short term.

[Luckyclover]

I'd like to start journaling... just to get some of this out. It's really tempting to start going over the past two months when things slid downhill but I'll just start with the present.

Last night I surprised him by arranging my mom to come over for a babysitting and we went out for dinner and a movie. It was both pleasant and awkward and trying to remember some DB techniques, I tried to err more towards pleasant than awkward.

In the movie he noticed that I was extremely fidgety and asked if I wanted to hold his hand. I responded "Yes.. but I'm afraid to ask for it." He reached out and we held hands for about ten minutes. I nearly cried but held it back. Crying around him always does me no good.

Got home and I was exhausted. I'm always tired in the evenings (the kids get up at 7am or earlier) and the anti-depressants I've started taking make me very sleepy. We live in a one bedroom house (the kids share the bedroom) so there really is no escaping each other. I folded out the hideabed and crawled under the covers while he messaged on the computer with his friends, one of whom was K. Both he and K are night owls and if he's not over at her place and night then they txt each other until about 1 or 2 in the morning.

I walked over to give him a friendly squeeze goodnight, being careful not to be over affectionate and noticed that the last thing K said to him was "I miss u so much." I nearly started crying and he noticed it right away.

Argument started. Argument meaning him being frustrated with the way I'm acting. He hates it when I cry but he's the first to admit that he's very impatient and wonders when I'll stop crying about all of this. We patched it up fairly quickly and for the first time in a few weeks he surprised me by crawling into bed next to me and cuddling me from behind.

I didn't ask why.. I didn't even count it as progress. I was just grateful for the contact and let it stay at that.

In the morning I threw up but that's hardly unusual. When I'm stressed, I get what my mother calls a "nervous stomach" in the mornings. It always goes away in about an hour or so and then I'm able to put down some breakfast and start the day. It's a little worse night now with the medication (bleh) in that it's taking me longer to recover from my morning stress stomach.

He looked alarmed, asked me if I was sick and I responded that I wasn't.. and explained it to him.

He got quiet. He stopped looking at me. He started doing all the things that he usually does when he get upset.. gets very quiet... starts cleaning things, short clipped tone of voice and of course.... complete denial that he's upset. Today was my day to go to work and his day with the kids so I hugged them all goodbye and was determined to put up a brave "you being upset is not going to make me upset" front. I did pretty good with it this time.

On the drive to work, reflecting, I realized that when he saw me working through my nervous stomach this morning he felt the same way he feels when he see's me cry. Frustrated that I'm doing this to myself (because as he points out "Your happiness should not be dependent on anyone else") and mostly (by his own admission) guilty. Guilty for what he's done to me and how it's changed me and broken me. And when he feels guilty he feels like a sack of poop. And he withdraws...

I can hide some of the sadness and put on a brave front when he's around during the day. I can't hide vomiting in the morning.

We exchanged brief texts for the first part of the morning. Mostly about his plans for taking the kids to the park (I expect to have a play date with K's little boy but whatever..) and I asked him if he could do a favor for me and make sure that DS got his medicine (for a rash) that I forgot to give him this morning before I left. He said he would do it and I threw out a friendly, non-affectionate "Thanks, you're the best" as my response. His response was "No problem and no I'm not".

I feel like that confirmed my suspicious that seeing my morning stress puke made him feel like a heel again and brought back some of that good old self-loathing. The more I inspire guilt in him, the more he withdraws.

I didn't text him for the rest of the morning but when I had to leave for my lunch break I did send him a note letting him know I was stepping away... only because he mentioned that maybe the kids and him would swing by work. (I wasn't holding my breath but I was hoping)... His responses were short and clipped again but he let me know that he had taken the kids to the playground. I cut off the conversation myself with "Cool. Have fun with them!"

And here I am... at work. Reading the stories on DB.com and writing one of my own.

I should make note that altho' I am the primary caregiver and mostly stay at home mom of my two beautiful babes, I did pick up a job that has me out of the house two days a week, no more. One full day and one evening only. The kids don't like it.. lol... when DS hugged me goodbye this morning he complained "Why do you always have to go to work?" I said "Honey.. I don't go to work very often.. just a little bit. The rest of the time I'm with you." And I encouraged them to be good for Daddy and listen to him.

Thanks for letting me journal here.. I plan on doing this alot more often and getting some of what's churning my gut out. I hope to get lots of input and some advise even.. let me know where I can apply the 37 rules and whatnot... I need all the help I can get.

[Luckyclover]

I should also point out as an aside he has been doing a lot of work around the house... fixing my car (saved me a buttload of money), found me a new fridge (the old one was one the fritz) and surprised me when the kids and I returned from camping with my parents (had to get away for awhile) by installing the new fridge and cleaning the house from top to bottom... it was a nice gesture, no matter the motivation behind it. And I made a point of not reading too much into it.

A few weeks ago he took off his wedding ring. A while back I took off my engagement ring (but not my wedding ring) and I squirreled it away, with H's wedding ring, in my jewelry box. When I got back from camping to a new fridge and a clean house, I was surprised to see both rings hanging up with my necklaces... suspended by a necklace THAT HE GAVE ME WHEN WE WERE DATING. My addled brain slipped into "stupid-hopeful" mode but I didn't mention it right away. I was just telling myself not to be silly about it when H apologized for listening to a message on the answering machine when he was cleaning. I asked "Why should you be sorry for that?" He responded "Because it's not my message machine, it's not my place."

I felt air run out of me, like a balloon.. so I brought up the rings. "Why did you hang out my engagement ring and your wedding ring with the necklace you gave me when we were dating?"

"I just thought that you would like that. Just thought that you wouldn't want to lose them."

"Yes", I responded "But you dug them out of the jewerly box and hung them up for me to see... that feels very..." Cautiously now.. "... romantic."

He was instantly panicked and very quiet. "It wasn't meant to be... sorry...."

[Luckyclover]

Also, when we (the kids and I) went camping for a few days last week, we camped up with my folks at a lake that my phone didn't get reception at. I let H know that there would be no reception at the lake. We had a great time camping (the kids first time at a beach!) and it really felt good to escape the pain for awhile.

When I drove back and moved the phone back into reception area, my phone lit up and started ringing with 8 text messages that H had sent me over the course of the two days I was off the grid. "Are you okay?" "Thank you for making that spagetti for my lunch." "I really appreciate that you're my friend." "Worried about you and the kids." Etc etc.

He was home when we got home (unusual) cleaning the house and initiated a big hug from me and had a happy pillow fight with the kids before their bedtime. He even stayed the night instead of running away to K's house after the kids were in bed. ("Do you live there? Do you live here?" I asked him. "I don't know." He said, "I have no home.") He hasn't been that happy since.

So the answer, like the book says, is to make myself less accessible. Go darker while remaining upbeat and friendly?

Sorry... I know I've been writing a lot here... just getting a lot off my chest.

[FaithnAK]

Do I think he'll change? Not sure... I can't really answer that. I do know that I'd like to change myself first. I don't really like where I am or the dependent mess I've become. I want him in my life.. I really do. Putting love aside (which I aim to try and do but it's hard) I like the guy.. I really do.

Keep journaling please. You really put out your feelings well on "paper".

Let's hear more about the part in bold. What's your goal(Nothing to do with him)? What would you like to accomplish? What does Lucky envision about herself in the future?

It's okay to be you and your honesty about yourself isn't a deal breaker. Like 25 said it's not always you that has the problem, but what we strive for is to make us even better through this crap. As humans, we all seem to want what we can't have, but when it creates negative emotions it's because we do not have healthy boundaries. You seem to have them, but every second you spend crying and upset, is another part of your life that COULD have been happy.

[aeolianchaos]

Hi Lucky,

I think your journalling here is a good idea, and it helps to give some ideas about how you think through things.

From the sound of it, you and your H are a pretty classical Extrovert/Introvert pair?

If thats true, maybe that info can be useful for coming up with some good ideas for ways to get out and about and recharge your batteries.

Do you have any friends you can go for coffee with? One on one types of things? Those might be a lot more enjoyable than your H's get-togethers of large groups.

You can absolutely change yourself - its one of the most self-affirming things that people can do!