It's as Clear as Mud

[Jeannine]

I can easily relate to your statements about how you felt prior to the bomb.

My H was acting a lot like Wolfie back then.

And me? Well, I was angry, resentful and thinking ..."Hey, if you can't do better than this, then leave".

Undoubtedly, my thinking was tainting my attitude and that added weight to the downward spiral.

And yes, I agree that our spouses deserve credit for their share of the work.

[shinybear]

Oh yes, I can relate to all of this as well.

In the months that led up to the bomb, CJ was of course on the chatlines and had one then another clandestine A.

I had gotten to the point with our lack of a sex life, our "room mate" status, that I HAD turned away from him.

I fantasized about another life, being single finding another H. One who would meet my needs.

CJ would fall asleep on the couch, yet again, on another Friday night and I would flip him the finger as I walked past the room!!!

I wondered how long I could survive in this desert of an M...although at the same time (denial???) I didn't think CJ felt the M was all that bad...even I thought it was acceptable most of the time....

Confusing, huh?

But yes, I DID feel some of those WAW feelings, but as you said, Sage, I chose not to act on them the way CJ did...I too got angry and frustrated and controlling...

It's just curious to me...tell me ladies were there no opportunities for you all to potentially "slip up" as our H's did?

I know that there are attractive (and attracted ) men where I work, where we socialize, I COULD have played around on-line...never crossed my mind.

Guys flirted, okay...I like the attention. But there was always this LINE..."don't go there!"

Is it that WE just weren't AS unhappy? I mean (Do NOT tell CJ!!!) I had a 24 year old student who developed quite a crush on me two years ago. (he was 22 then)

I thought I was just mentoring him, but when I joked about being old enough to be his mother, he went pale and denied it! He was also visibly shaken when I described how well CJ and I "matched" in a lecture on M (how ironic...this was just a few months before the chat line crap started).

This kid wanted ME...I was flattered but my GOD I am married and have a nephew older than him!!! I gently set him straight.

Okay, now I've lost my point entirely...sorry gang!

Shiny

[phd1126]

It took both of us to get where we were, and it has taken both of us to get where we are now.

Hi Tal-
I love this insight--very true, it does take two to make this journey both good and bad roads. You have taken your R down so many paths and you are so awe-inspiring to me. Your strength and wisdom is so fantastic!!!

I have had an interesting few days--lots on my thread!
I know now that I'm going to be fine whatever happens--I think this is called detachment!!! Finally!!!

[sage]

It's just curious to me...tell me ladies were there no opportunities for you all to potentially "slip up" as our H's did?

My job site consists of 85% men and my school classes are about 75%...there's plenty of men around me! I suppose I could attract 1 or 2 given enough time and inclination . This may be "black and white" thinking on my part but I just feel as though I'm "wired" against infidelity ...it was a major part of my parents marital demise and IN MY FACE for many, many years. I just can't see choosing that path over another...and I'm on "heightened alert" to signs of stepping over boundaries so I just don't see myself "slipping up". It would have to be a conscious decision.

About 8 months ago I started working with a guy on a project that I hadn't worked with before...we had a nice ease with each other...laughed at each other's jokes, etc, when no one else seemed to get them...he emailed me a few things and one day in the course of a 5 minute conversation mentioned that he never saw his wife between her job and the kids...the red flags went way up for me and while I remained friendly I put the brakes on the 1-on-1 friendship. Maybe I wouldn't have been so alert and on guard if I hadn't been dealing with the aftermath of h's ea...

Sage

[RMC]

Shiny,
Oh Yeah. I thought about it. It was purely out of extreme lonliness and pain though.

I fantasized about someone to talk to, that would call me and would WANT to be with me.

All the things my H was not doing.
Yep, I had PLENTY of opportunities to act on it too.

Lots of invitations, but I never took any of them.
BOY, it was tempting because I knew it would ease my pain, and I was in ALOT of pain.

The thing I kept thinking though was how could I do the very thing that I condemed him for? What would that make me?
No better than him.

Not only that, but I was a WAW 12 yrs ago and I promised him I would never leave him or cheat on him-ever.
I take that very seriously even after what he did.

I would gout with my best friend who is single and we'd dance and talk to people but that was it. I never crossed the line.

I think if I had had enough and was ready to call it quits, I might have had a different attitude-MAYBE but, I wanted my H back. I loved him and could not imagine anyone filling his place in my life.

I could not imagine haivng anyone else share the joy of our grandchildren or our kids with me.

I could not imagine anyone in our home that we designed and built together.
All that stuff.

Truthfully, I'm not as opposed to another R if my H does not snap out of this because I've been doing this a LONG time and he runs hot and cold.

I'd have to be totally done with my H though before I did anything.

I know alot of us probably have those thoughts out of our lonliness, so don't feel bad about it. Rachael

[Zoo]

Interesting convo here Tal...your thread always seems to have these

I've walked both sides of the fence too...WAW and LBS. I think it helped me to some extent being a WAW...I could understand a lot of what H was going through and it did help me to be more patient then I might have been. It didn't STOP me from doing a lot of the typical crazy behaviour in the beginning though In the back of my mind I was always asking mysef WHY I was acting the way I was, I wouldn't like it if it was the other way around.

To Shiny's question...yep, the opportunity was there for me in both instances. It is part of what precipitated me to sep from X. The temptation started to get to be to great on top of all of the other problems. The weird thing was that even after we seperated I still wouldn't allow myself to give in to those urges. It took over a year and being TOTALLY convinced the M was over for me to be with anyone else.

This time around I don't know if I would have held as tightly to my convictions as I did the last time I think the only thing that saved me was the distance from the opportunity and the fact that I'm reliant on others to transport me around. I'm not proud knowing that but realistic enough to acknowledge it. In the back of my mind I know that opportunity still exists too and I think that if H were to seek another A I would more then likely pursue it

Zoo

[talitsa]

Interesting convo, yes. Well...I guess I just knew a lot more about relationships than he did, so I was sure that if we tried to turn it around, we could.
*I knew that no R is "perfect", everybody has their problems. *I knew that every long-term R has its ups & downs and cycles.
*I knew what the danger signs of emotional infidelity were. *I knew what depression felt like and that when depressed, your outlook and perspective on your R's can be very negative if you don't recognize that it is the depression affecting you.
*I knew that women tend to be the ones to "complain" in an R because we are the "caretakers" of our emotional relationships. Often women are the ones who push things to the point of conflict because unresolved problems can fester. (as most of us have learned the hard way. Men tend not to hear that loving motivation behind their wives "complaints"---all they hear is that we are being "bitches" or "don't like of love them anymore". The conflict-avoiding guys ESPECIALLY don't get it, and the women who do that just keep turning up the volume which leads to cycles like David and Pam describe. Been there! Sigh.

I knew all of that, but Wolfie didn't. He learned all of that stuff last year.

Even when I was ready to give up, I didn't consider being unfaithful. Even after the bomb, when I was bellowing around like a mortally wounded animal, I didn't consider being unfaithful. Maybe I'm like Sage...hardwired against it. Maybe I knew deep down that no A was going to ease my broken heart. The only reason I considered it at all was that I wanted to hurt Wolfie at first. I wanted him to feel as much pain as I felt--to be absolutely devistated.

Unfortunately, there were things that I knew about that, too. There were only two things that could heal me...lot's and lot's of time or Wolfie coming home and working with me to rebuild a better R. I'm very thankful that it was the last thing, but it sure took some time and convincing for Wolfie to see that he really is the love of my life--even after he hurt me so.

I guess when you have gained enough knowledge and you "know" all of this stuff, it's hard to be in denial and go to Lala land yourself. Lala land is full of smoke and mirrors to hide from yourself, but you can't do that forever...and when you can't hide anymore...you have to face the remorse and regret someday.

Luckily,

[phd1126]

HI Tal,
I love your posts--always full of such great insight and deep down soul-searching! You are a gem in the DB world!!! No doubt!

Even when I was ready to give up, I didn't consider being unfaithful. Maybe I knew deep down that no A was going to ease my broken heart. The only reason I considered it at all was that I wanted to hurt Wolfie at first. I wanted him to feel as much pain as I felt--to be absolutely devistated.

I think we all go through these emotions and some go for the "retaliatory A" and others are just strong-willed against it. Guess I find myself wondering--is it really an A since H was the WAS--that is where I have issues in determing. My faith says, "yes, it would still be an A and a break of the vows"....that is probably why I havn't really done much in the dating world--tried to, since H encourage me to--but think that was him wanting to ease his guilt! Fortunately, the one guy that I met, that I would possibly consider an R with is smart enough to not go there with a separated woman!

There were only two things that could heal me...lot's and lot's of time or Wolfie coming home and working with me to rebuild a better R. I'm very thankful that it was the last thing, but it sure took some time and convincing for Wolfie to see that he really is the love of my life--even after he hurt me so.

I think it is very hard for most WAS's to realize that we have such a deep love even after all the hurt--and in some cases makes it more difficult for them to come back--many of them have already walked away or had the A because they didn't feel worthy of the spouse they had..so now they have done this terrible thing, making them evem more-unworthy! It's is their vicious cycle in their head, I think!

Yes, LaLa Land cannot last forever, eventually they have to deal with the mess they have created for themselves!!!

Take Care Tal!
Have a great weekend!
And as always, thanks for your wealth of knowledge and wisdom!!

[talitsa]

Well, I'm feeling a bit more like a Cubic Z than a gem today. I guess I just need to do some venting.

I'm feeling like we are drifting back to some of the same-old-same-old in regard to communication. We can talk about anything and everything easily...except for anything to do with our R. Especially the sore spots. Ugh.

One thing that we have discussed several times in the past is a tangible feeling of lack of emotional intimacy when we ML. Now I understand that DURING might not be the best time--but yeah--I would definately like SOME pillow talk before/after...ever? Hell, I wouldn't even mind if he woke me up at 3AM out of a sound sleep.

The last time the issue came up--he said "guys don't want to talk after". Ok, well that only seems to involved not talking about anything sweet or emotional, cuz he does a good job on other subjects.

Is it just me? Would anyone else be bothered? I mean, if you had just had passionate sex with your spouse and 5 minutes later, they are going on and on about something to do with work--or what was gonna be on TV that night...would that be annoying?

The last time we ML, I noticed afterward that he has a slight frown on his face and ask what's wrong. He says, "I'm thinking about sausage. I'm really hungry for some sausage."

My God, Homer Simpson could do better than that, enit? Basking in the afterglow and wishing for sausage? Oooookay!

I have tried showing by example...using romantic verbal affirmations and terms of endearment. He seems to really like that--but his response in return involves some sort of pleased grunting sound.

Even off the subject of communication in the bedroom, I have tried several times to initiate some e-mail conversations with him. I told him that I thought it seemed like sometimes it was easier to express ourselves in writing...I didn't get into anything heavy in the conversation (even passed on a few jokes that someone had sent to me).

No response from him other than "I got your email today". This is a guy who was for several years having regular email correspondance with several ff's that were quite emotionally intimate. I mean, he used to look up their horoscopes and send them. They would be telling each other all kinds of private stuff. With me--nothing!

I know that you guys are probably going to give me some deserved 2x4's about unrealistic expectations and I probably deserve that. This all probably has something to do with my own LL's and why I am seeing many other ways that he shows love, but still feel like I've got an empty tank.

Sometimes I get so frustrated with his boneheadedness

[sage]

Hey Tal -- No 2x4s from me! I can relate to both of the items that you brought up.

Re. emotional connection after intimacy...h and I definitely seem to have differing needs in this area. I could loll around cuddling forever but he has tended to be pretty restless. How have I handled it? Well...when his eyes glaze over with a desire for sausage, I say "That's a great idea, let's go get some". (OK, not word for word since I tend not to eat too much sausage...but my point is that I've definitely focused more on his need for sausage than my need for cuddling).

the result? Well, at first we just went along and got some sausage. Then gradually he'd say "Hey, is it ok with you that we just switched gears so fast?" which would give me an oportunity to say something like "Well...I also love cuddling but am I someplace with you? That's darned good!". Finally...lately (and this is VERY recently)...my h has taken more time both before and after to slow down and cuddle.

I dunno...what's your reaction when he talks about sausage?

As for the email stuff...well...I don't have any advice since it's actually currently weighing on MY mind. h and ow seemed to have a very active email r. h ebbs and flows re. responding to me in emails...he'll go for weeks or months when he's real good about it and then for weeks when all I get is "I got your email today".

I try to send them w/o expectation. For example, I send h a "welcome to school" email each night he's at school. I almost stopped doing it because he rarely responded but towards the middle of december he would email back and say "I love getting these from you".

I'm babbling!!!!

LONG version...I'm not sure what to suggest!

Sage (big help, huh?)