To DB, or not to DB, that is the question.

[Psych77]

I can't believe how good you are at understanding my H. It's like you've met him!

Actually, from what I have heard you say, it's more like I am him. Almost.

Talking to you is, in a way, like talking to my W, saying everything I wish I could still say to her. I can't give her this encouragement, because I am the one she has the problem with. I can't show her my insight and apologize, because she has heard too many apologies, and they don't mean anything to her anymore. All I can do is show her my changes. But in the meantime, it is healing for me to help someone else (as much as I can) through what I know I have put her through.

So believe me when I tell you that I am very happy for whatever help I can give you.

[Endeavour]

I also think that he doesn't realize that a loving relationship is a goal, an objective. I think he is still stuck in thinking (whether he realizes it or not) that love is something that happens to him. I think that is a difference between him and me. He seems to expect that a loving relationship with the right woman should just come together of itself. He may consciously, intellectually, know that relationships take work (who hasn't heard that old saw several million times?), but I think his actions are still guided by the expectation that, if you are the right woman for him, everything will be beautiful by itself. And I also think that he believes that you are the right woman for him, which is why he keeps on pulling away and then trying again - maybe he is stymied trying to figure out why, you being the right woman for him, everything isn't happening the way it is supposed to.

E, Psych, this kind of jumped out at me. E - I think this is a very real possibility. This is also the impression I get of my W. I think the right MC could get him on the right track, IF, and it's a big IF he would go in with an open mind.

jb, this jumped out at me as well. I can definitely see some of my H in your W which is probably why I follow your sitch so closely. That, and also because you've been very supportive of mine. I think it's wonderful they way you support, not only the men, but the women on this board as well. I think it must be all that time you spend with the church ladies.

In all seriousness though, yes I agree that if we found the right MC, that might be key. I have been researching pro-marriage counselors in my area and I think I've found one. She does an initial free telephone consultation so I'm going to try and find some time this week when H and the kids are not around. Originally, I had planned to go alone but H might be open to it after our conversation last night...

Anyway, an UPDATE:

Yesterday, my H was showing signs of withdrawing again (I wasn't surprised and knew it was coming.) After work, he met a friend for a quick drink. When he came home we spoke about this friend and his brother (who is in the same profession as me) and then H went upstairs to watch TV with S7.

After S7 went to bed, I went upstairs to lie in bed with H. As we were lying there, he texted me and told me he was feeling blah and needed to go to sleep. Then added that he had booked an appointment with a counselor. Something about the way he did this (texting me instead of speaking to me for one, meeting with his friend but too "blah" to deal with me again), really bothered me and I decided it was time to deal with everything directly.

I told him that I gave him an out with the letter and if he wanted to take it, then please just take it and stop dragging this situation on to the point where it was affecting both of us so negatively. I said he certainly didn't need permission from a counselor to leave, if that's what he truly wanted. (There was just something about he presented it all that left me feeling that this was about getting the courage to leave.)

Anyway, we talked a bit more ( I can't recall all the finite details), and he finally admitted that leaving is not really what he wanted, and that he still doesn't accept my letter. I said that I now believed that guilt was keeping him here, and that I needed more than that in a M.

He said it wasn't guilt and he admitted that recently he's said a lot of things that he truly didn't mean, except that he meant them in the moment but then realized that he didn't mean them only days, sometimes hours later. He added that he thinks his anger is confusing him (and me), and that the counseling appointment was not about wanting to leave, but that it was about a lot of things - the death of him mother which he admitted he has not dealt with, his unresolved anger and working on us. He also admitted he's not happy with himself and with many things in his life (MLC?). But that he had so much to be grateful for and that happiness needed to come from within.

Is this all positive? Yes. Does this mean I believe with absolute certainty that he wants to work on our M? Not really. He's incredibly confused. But I am glad he admits he needs help in dealing with his grief over his mother's death.

As far as we're concerned, I actually fear the wrong counselor will do more harm than good but at least he's realizing that he needs to sort out his feelings before making a decision he may regret.

[Psych77]

I think you are right not to be certain that he is ready to work on your M. However, the counseling he is talking about getting shows the beginnings of insight without which, he will never be able to work on M. Not certainty by any means, but he seems to be going in the right direction

Here's hoping for you.

[jbnati]

jb, this jumped out at me as well. I can definitely see some of my H in your W which is probably why I follow your sitch so closely. That, and also because you've been very supportive of mine. I think it's wonderful they way you support, not only the men, but the women on this board as well. I think it must be all that time you spend with the church ladies.

Thanks for that, E. You're not too bad yourself Also, shoot - you took the time to read through however many threads I have out there now and I was flat-out impressed. You've thrown some challenging questions at me and I value your perspective.

Quite an update there. It sounds like you knew what to do. Although, I do wonder if he feels like when he talks he feels like it comes out as jibberish, and that's why he was right beside you texting you. Who knows? Heck, I can resemble that thought - never texted my W when she's been in the same house though.

Is this all positive? Yes. Does this mean I believe with absolute certainty that he wants to work on our M? Not really. He's incredibly confused. But I am glad he admits he needs help in dealing with his grief over his mother's death.

Sound like you may have nailed it. It sounds like he's very confused and he's desperately searching for a solution to the cause of his pain. I hope he follows through with C and if he does, he is consistent and keeps going.

Are you still going to talk to the MC you found? Do you think your H would be willing to do both?

[Endeavour]

I greatly value your perspective too, jb as I would never talk to my male friends (in real life) about my sitch. Oh, and admittedly, after reading through all your threads, I've decided I need to give myself a break and get the summary of other sitches... or I'll be here all day.

As for H following through on his C appointment, he's there right now so hopefully he will stick with it. And hopefully this C is not some bitter divorced "go ahead and be selfish and get a D if it's going to make you happy!" type. I've had friends who have been given some terrible advice by C's.

And yes, I will try and find a time when the kids and H are not around to call that MC. Friday might work as H needs to drop the kids off at their Grandfather's house. It's a few hours a way so I should be alone in the house as long as work doesn't "call". (I never know what I'm doing from one day to the next so it makes it very hard to plan more than a day in advance.)

[jbnati]

Yes, hopefully your H did get a good C. It can be a real mixed bag out there. And he's so confused, he may just listen to anyone - at least if he's anything like my W. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of it, though. My suggestion would be to not pressure him too much right after he gets back. But you already knew that

I hope you're also able to talk to the MC.

[Endeavour]

I didn't ask H about his C appointment last night. It's none of my business, unless he brings it up because I don't want him to feel pressured to share what was discussed. He's still avoiding me for the most part anyway. I don't really see that much difference in his actions (aside from booking the C appointment) since I gave him my letter. Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon though...

Although, I suppose he's been kissing me more on the lips since he read my letter, but he made plans to take S7 out last night. Today, he again made plans with S7 and then texted me later to say they would be eating dinner at a friend's. It's now almost 9pm and they're still not home. So the withdrawing continues. At least S7 is benefiting from all this time alone with H.

I had a nice day with S16 though. We did some shopping (like most teenage girls, she loves shopping!) and then picked up school supplies as well.

Trying not to let the distance bother me.

But something needs to change in this M.

Lack of communication and withdrawing got us here and it's certainly isn't going to get us out.

Can't control H though so I'll just continue to make plans without him.

I just wish I could be rid of this constant anxiety though. It's unrelenting and I feel like I'm always on edge. Ah well, I guess it's normal given the circumstances.

[Telemark]

"At least S7 is benefiting from all this time alone with H."

This is a good thing, yes?

"Can't control H though so I'll just continue to make plans without him."

This is definitely a good thing.

With the exception of my W, I think men tend to be more "come here - go away" than women in these situations. Your H is definitely riding the rollercoaster so much I think he doesn't know what he wants from minute to minute.

Continue to be the rock; for yourself and your kids.

[Psych77]

Disclaimer: The following post includes advice on which the poster has no right to speak, given his own history. Reader discretion is advised.

I just wish I could be rid of this constant anxiety though. It's unrelenting and I feel like I'm always on edge. Ah well, I guess it's normal given the circumstances.

That is what GAL is supposed to help you with.

Believe me, I am in the same boat! But the more we both allow ourselves to get anxious over the outcomes, the more we undermine our own efforts. We are more tempted to abandon our changes, more likely to lose our tempers when the spouse does something that looks like a step backward. And even apart from these things, I think the spouses can tell when we are hanging on their actions toward us. And it only makes the situation look that much more unstable to them.

Let me share with you an insight I recently reached. When W and I started seeing each other, I already had a life. I had friends I loved, I was knowledgeable about things that were important to me, and we loved discussing those things. I went out and enjoyed activities, had nights of regular meetings to which I looked forward, and was valued by others.

When W came into my life, she added to it - she was a bonus, something wonderful that made my good life better than I ever thought it would be.

Once we got married, all that changed. I was less involved with other things, I didn't worry about valuing or loving myself, because she was there, and she gave me affirmation and company. Where she had formerly been a wonderful addition to a good life, she was now a necessary component to a good life. Instead of maintaining the basics of a good life myself and letting W push it over the top into "wonderful," I got lazy and let her contribution to my life mean that I had to do less to keep it "good." She was no longer a "bonus," but a "basic." She was no longer an "abundance," but a "need."

As a result, any time she started to be even a little less present for me, I would get upset, feel threatened, become angry.

I imagine she perceived it, too. All of her efforts used to be met with my delight; she made my life brighter just being there. How disappointing would it be? Now, all her contributions to my life were just regarded as maintaining the bare minimum, and any decrease in her contribution to my life was viewed as a deficit. You call that motivating?

I think you see my point. In reality, we do need our spouses. They have carved a niche in our lives which they must now fill. They must be the parent only they can be, the provider and/or partner on whom we now rely. But their personal presence, their relationship with us, the most personal way in which they are in our lives - this should not be a need or expectation. We should be complete people without them, their closeness to us received as just an extra helping of pleasure in our lives.

And we do that by GAL. By meeting our own needs and thus being someone who wants their presence in our lives without needing it. I think your husband would be happier to know he is your favorite, rather than your requirement. That, having everything you need (emotionally) and having the choice to be with or without him, you would still rather be with.

At least I am working on the theory that this is what my W wants. And, as insinuated above, I struggle with actually doing this.

Boil it down, what I am saying is GAL, do things that make you happy and meet your own needs, and this may help to minimize the anxiety you are feeling. And it can have the added benefit of making you look more desirable to H, and taking your pleasant responses to him as coming from a genuine regard for him, rather than posessiveness.

Good luck.

[jbnati]

I didn't ask H about his C appointment last night. It's none of my business, unless he brings it up because I don't want him to feel pressured to share what was discussed.

E, I would say you handled this perfectly.

But something needs to change in this M.

Lack of communication and withdrawing got us here and it's certainly isn't going to get us out.

This is a very true - valid point. However, I think it's going to take some time to change course.

Can't control H though so I'll just continue to make plans without him.

This is a good perspective. Use this to GAL.

I just wish I could be rid of this constant anxiety though. It's unrelenting and I feel like I'm always on edge. Ah well, I guess it's normal given the circumstances.

Oh, I know this feeling way too well. Psych has good point. The more you can GAL, the better you will feel. Also, if you can detach from your H's emotions, that will also help. You're right, too. This is normal to feel this way. You are living in very stressful conditions.