To DB, or not to DB, that is the question.

[Endeavour]

Thatgirl007, thanks so much for your support. Ironically, I just recently started reading your posts but haven't quite finished your threads yet. I will pop by when I've caught up. I hope you're doing well.

DG, thank-you. That means a lot to me.

No, I was just giving Psych some credit for his suggestion. I think he's providing some very valuable input to your sitch.

He definitely is! Everything he says is all so eerily familiar. If it wasn't for the fact that he's in New England, I'd almost think it was my H posting at times. While aside from the fact that Pysch is actually working on his marriage.

So I get the impression his bombs weren't sincere? Like he had no intention of following through? However, because of the repeated bombings, you are not truly living and you're always on edge. I know that feeling and it's very unhealthy.

I may have more later on - I need to get downstairs to be with my son.

I'll be keeping you in my prayers and thoughts.

I'm not sure if the bombs were sincere, or if he thinks they were and now he's not sure... or if he was just trying to get my attention. I think he's depressed and not really processing things very well.

And yes, I'm tired of living on edge. I prefer my drama on the stage or the screen.

I've read some dramatic sitches but I still haven't come across one that has a S that seems to flip flop back and forth so quickly like mine (if I've missed one, please let me know). I'm trying my best but I feel like I'd can't find a proper road map, even here on the boards, to figure out how to handle the constant vacillating.

[Endeavour]

Did you expect your H to react this way or did you think he would take it that you're giving him what he said he wants?

Honestly, I wasn't sure. A couple months ago, I would have suspected that my letter could serve as a wake-up call but I didn't want to use it as a tactic. After him telling me he was only staying out of guilt last weekend, that sort of sent me over the edge and I realized that I couldn't do this anymore.

I thought there was a good chance, he'd take my letter as his "out". So I'm a little surprised at his reaction. Then again, I have thought at times that his anger and pain was clouding his better judgment, and that he truly wasn't "done".

Is there anything he can do to "right the ship", so to speak?

Actions. Consistent effort. No more vacillating. He needs to sit me down and speak with strength and conviction. There is a way he can speak to me that will make me believe him but I'm not telling him how to do that...

Are you done completely or are you just tired of the drama and walking on eggshells all the time?

I was prepared to be done after I gave him the letter. I have my book on abandonment and I'm still reading it so I'm preparing for the worst.

I am tired of the drama. It's two steps forward, two steps back and we're cycling faster now. One week it's good, then it's back to bombing, then days later, it's good. I don't want to live in the middle of a bad movie of the week. I want to get on with my life either with him or without him.

If this was the first time this had happened, I would be more patient but this is the last 3 strikes, so to speak.

Do you think this would serve as a wake up call to your H?

It's possible but he's very angry. He send me another barrage of texts yesterday afternoon letting me know all the ways he's tried. It's like he's been keeping a journal -- "Reasons to Leave my Wife". Dates, incidents, etc.

Anyway, I really appreciate your input, jb. I only have one friend I talk to about this (as I've opted to keep it quiet for now) and I sincerely appreciate the support from you and the other posters on my thread so very much. ((())) to you all.

[jbnati]

E - It sounds like your H is on his heels right now. It sounds like he is doing all things we say in DB'ing NOT to do. He sounds desperate. It sounds like he is trying the wrong things, going down cheeseless tunnels so to speak, especially by listing everything he has tried.

Is there anything he can do to "right the ship", so to speak?

Actions. Consistent effort. No more vacillating. He needs to sit me down and speak with strength and conviction. There is a way he can speak to me that will make me believe him but I'm not telling him how to do that...

I think your H needs a clear picture on what this looks like. This sounds like it is very key to me. I think this would be best place for him to concentrate his efforts. I wish I could give you a roadmap on how he could here from where he is. Perhaps you re-phrase it in action-oriented terms for him?

I don't blame you one bit for not wanting to live through this anymore. If you do it too long, it'll kill you.

Hang in there, E. I, only with many others are here for you with our prayers, thoughts, and support.

[Telemark]

E, just wanted to echo what jb has said to you; your H is all over the map and is putting on whatever face he thinks will get him what he wants. The problem is, your H has no clue what he wants.

If you think it's time to call it, then it's time to call it.

[Endeavour]

jb and Telemark, you're both right. H has no clue, which is only serving to confuse me more.

It's amazing how you can see light in other's sitches but have no idea if there's any in your own because you're too caught up in the emotion of it all.

Anyway, yesterday H was very affectionate. Even more so than he's been since the first bomb in April. He asked my permission to take S7 fishing and texted me numerous times throughout the day to see what me and S16 were up to. We had dinner as a family and he kept asking me to tell the kids some funny stories from my childhood.

Later, he asked me to cuddle with him in bed and then offered me a back rub. I wasn't sure if I should bring up the letter again, or bring up the discussion about when we should tell the children so I just lay there and let him hold me. I declined the back rub but he kept insisting he wanted to so I relented.

It's almost like he's acting "as if" he didn't get my letter.

However, not talking about it, is still not moving us forward. So I know I need to be the one to push the conversation because keeping quiet has not worked for the past 4 months. It only leads to another bomb. It's time for me to do something different.

I thought the letter would be his out and that he would take it. I now wonder if it's only bought him more time to vacillate and if I need to insist on a better response then his previous, "I don't accept your letter". He did say he was going to draft up a proper response but knowing him, that will be pushed under the carpet as well so to speak.

Seriously perplexed. I feel like if I don't do something, he won't take my letter seriously. However, I'm not exactly in a huge hurry to blow my children's world apart.

This is so HARD.

[jbnati]

E - from my point of view, I think your H has read and digested the letter. He appears to be reacting to it. I think you are aware of this. His actions are saying he really doesn't want a D. I think you're concerned his changes right now are only temporary. If that's not the case, just call me crazy.

IMO, you may want to wait awhile before bringing up the letter.

What positive changes can you make to affect your H positively?

Would your H be amenable at all to MC?

What's your LL? What's your H's LL?

Please forgive me if I've asked you the questions above before or if you've already mentioned them.

[Psych77]

Endeavour,

I agree, I don't think your H knows what he wants. Literally. That is to say, I think what he wants is to stay with you, someone who loves him (I suspect) more than he is able to wrap his mind around. He just doesn't know that. And without knowing that, he can't make a conscious, deliberate decision (a commitment) to make that loving relationship the goal of his life.

I also think that he doesn't realize that a loving relationship is a goal, an objective. I think he is still stuck in thinking (whether he realizes it or not) that love is something that happens to him. I think that is a difference between him and me. He seems to expect that a loving relationship with the right woman should just come together of itself. He may consciously, intellectually, know that relationships take work (who hasn't heard that old saw several million times?), but I think his actions are still guided by the expectation that, if you are the right woman for him, everything will be beautiful by itself. And I also think that he believes that you are the right woman for him, which is why he keeps on pulling away and then trying again - maybe he is stymied trying to figure out why, you being the right woman for him, everything isn't happening the way it is supposed to.

He may be a very intelligent man (I have a gut feeling that he is - and I am mostly intellectual, so i don't have gut feelings often), but I think he is stunted in terms of emotional maturity. I think you said once that he was very resistive to the idea of mental health treatment (or I may be mixing you up with someone else), but he really needs some help. He needs to accept the fact that his expectation that there will be no conflict is unrealistic and a liability. He needs to accept the fact that there are things about him that need to change.

I know this doesn't help you much, right now. After all, only he can make that decision. However, he is right now making noises like he doesn't want to lose you. It may be that he dropped all those "bombs" because he wanted to scare you, because he wanted to get you to cling to him, because he didn't think you really cared about him (we talked before about fights looking a lot like rejection to me, and possibly him). Now that it is backfiring, he is the one clinging on to you. Maybe I am going out on a limb here, and maybe I am totally out in left field, but I think that he is terrified that all his drama might be coming true. I doubt that he was consciously being manipulative with all this, but I do think he was hoping to get a response, and this wasn't it!

In short, I think that he is close to realizing that he wants to stay with you, and that if he does he will need to change. He might just be scared and confused enough at this time, seeing the failure of his previous tactics, to listen to what you say can change your relationship. You certainly have his attention. Maybe he will stop looking at you as the enemy, and see you as a partner in trying to find the happy life together that, it is obvious to me, he wants.

I know I have been pretty accurate about things that I said previously about your H, but please be warned, I know that I am really stretching this time. Look at all this critically, see if it rings true. Most importantly, see if his actions from here out fit with this interpretation.

This sounds like a real "white knuckle" situation for you. I don't envy you.

Ever hear about the Chinese character for the word "crisis?" It is a combination of the characters for "danger" and "opportunity." Of course I can't say for sure, but I certainly hope that, somehow, this crisis turns out to be the opportunity for things to really change, in ways they could never have done without things getting this bad.

Nonetheless, no matter how things turn out, know that we are all here to support you. {{{{{{{{{{{{Endeavour}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}.

[Endeavour]

E - from my point of view, I think your H has read and digested the letter. He appears to be reacting to it. I think you are aware of this. His actions are saying he really doesn't want a D. I think you're concerned his changes right now are only temporary. If that's not the case, just call me crazy.

Yes, I think he is reacting to the letter and is scared of D but then again he did say last weekend, he was only staying out of guilt. That he didn't want to hurt me and the kids, but that he couldn't do this anymore. I don't want to be with a man who is here out of guilt. I think that is the one thing that he's said that is weighing the most heavily on my mind.

And yes, I believe I still fear his changes are most likely only temporary, considering he's done the flip flop before, even when he was the one doing the bombing. In some ways, I consider the letter my bomb or my boundary.

And if you're crazy, then I'm certifiable.

IMO, you may want to wait awhile before bringing up the letter.

Yes, this is probably the best decision considering my first choice is to bring it up and just have it done one way or another. But I tend to be a bit reactive at times so I'm trying to do a 180. However, I also don't want to appear weak because that's not very attractive either.

It's like a marital game of chess. What move do I make next?

What positive changes can you make to affect your H positively?

I'm going to give this question more thought but I think speaking to him in his LL is first on the list.

Would your H be amenable at all to MC?

I don't know. I do recall that when I was acting like a crazy unreasonable WAW, that he did suggest MC (this completely slipped my mind until the other day) but I said no. My reason for this was because he had always quit MC in the past, or said it didn't work so I didn't want to pour my heart out to another MC and feel humiliated when he once again became negative about the process. Obviously, this was my anger and hurt (and ego) talking and not the right choice.

What's your LL? What's your H's LL?

My H's is Physical Touch. We have discussed the book. Mine is a tie between Words of Affirmation and Quality Time.

Right now he is speaking to me in his LL and I am being receptive. I have shown some affection with out him initiating first, but am afraid of pursuing.

One thing he did mention to me yesterday by text (he seems to find it easier to communicate via text right now) is that he didn't think I found him attractive anymore and this hurt him deeply. My H is very attractive and I'd even go so far as to say he could have modeled when he was younger as he has a very handsome face. I assured him that I still find him attractive and that my distance was due to my pain, not his physical attractiveness. I realize now that withdrawing sexually hurt him more deeply than I realized. I was too caught up in my own hurt and selfishness to see this in the past.

[jbnati]

I also think that he doesn't realize that a loving relationship is a goal, an objective. I think he is still stuck in thinking (whether he realizes it or not) that love is something that happens to him. I think that is a difference between him and me. He seems to expect that a loving relationship with the right woman should just come together of itself. He may consciously, intellectually, know that relationships take work (who hasn't heard that old saw several million times?), but I think his actions are still guided by the expectation that, if you are the right woman for him, everything will be beautiful by itself. And I also think that he believes that you are the right woman for him, which is why he keeps on pulling away and then trying again - maybe he is stymied trying to figure out why, you being the right woman for him, everything isn't happening the way it is supposed to.

E, Psych, this kind of jumped out at me. E - I think this is a very real possibility. This is also the impression I get of my W. I think the right MC could get him on the right track, IF, and it's a big IF he would go in with an open mind.

It's like a marital game of chess. What move do I make next?

One takeaway I got from this is he reads and processes your letters. Maybe you don't focus on this specific letter or even follow-up on it at all? The message is in the medium. This seems to be a good way to communicate with your H. Maybe your next step is to write another letter? I think from everything I've read it should probably be a well thought out letter, like the one you just sent him. Perhaps you take a different direction with this letter? Perhaps with this one you can start asking for what you want? I think what I'm hearing here is you want stability, you want him to be receptive and engaged to MC if you go, and you want him to speak to you in your LLs. I would think you would start small - I think the stability is the biggest one on the list, but maybe start with a single LL or MC instead. IDK - just brainstorming here. Perhaps you just acknowledge and validate his feelings in the additional letter. Of course, I may be talking complete lunacy here.

[Endeavour]

He may be a very intelligent man (I have a gut feeling that he is - and I am mostly intellectual, so i don't have gut feelings often), but I think he is stunted in terms of emotional maturity.

Your gut instinct was indeed correct, Pysch. He's well educated (Masters Degree) and very intelligent. He's also very successful both professionally and financially but yes, he lacks emotional maturity at times (not always) and he himself has even admitted this to me.

Maybe I am going out on a limb here, and maybe I am totally out in left field, but I think that he is terrified that all his drama might be coming true. I doubt that he was consciously being manipulative with all this, but I do think he was hoping to get a response, and this wasn't it!

And after my conversation with H last night, I think you are absolutely correct. Psych, you are so good at reading my H, it's scary.

In short, I think that he is close to realizing that he wants to stay with you, and that if he does he will need to change. He might just be scared and confused enough at this time, seeing the failure of his previous tactics, to listen to what you say can change your relationship.

Yes, I "think" we are getting closer to this point.

I know I have been pretty accurate about things that I said previously about your H, but please be warned, I know that I am really stretching this time. Look at all this critically, see if it rings true. Most importantly, see if his actions from here out fit with this interpretation.

Oh, it is ringing so true, my ears are hurting.

Ever hear about the Chinese character for the word "crisis?" It is a combination of the characters for "danger" and "opportunity." Of course I can't say for sure, but I certainly hope that, somehow, this crisis turns out to be the opportunity for things to really change, in ways they could never have done without things getting this bad.

This has been something that has crossed my mind many times during this journey because even I felt "stuck". I think you're right again, this crisis might have been just what we needed to turn things around. Although, it could have been slightly less dramatic in my opinion.

Again, thanks so very much for your support, (((Psych))). Your ability to understand my H has been truly astounding. Sometimes I just sit here and stare at the computer completely stunned as I read your posts because I can't believe how good you are at understanding my H. It's like you've met him!

I'm so glad I joined this board because I've never felt comfortable, especially in recent years, with sharing my marital problems with more than one friend. It's amazing what other perspectives can do for you when they are given by those with similar goals. I'm very grateful for the time that you, jb and the others have given my sitch. ((())))