I'm still curious about the possible paths you feel like you have to choose from? I'm interested in what you perceive your choices to be.
Why is it important to not let her know that he bothers you? I would think this should be completely obvious to anybody capable of empathy. Do you really think you can hide that?
Why are you willing to talk w/ your W when you know OM is in the room w/ her? Seems almost masochistic.
I understand what you are saying about your W and the OM. How she is enthralled, etc. And you see the silliness of her saying this stuff to you.
How out of character is her behavior, in your opinion?
I think you are correct that much of your W's behavior is very predictable. It seems that infidelity has a lot of predictable patterns. Perhaps someone will codify them at some point for our reference.
As far as communicating about 'friends' - I hear that loud and clear. Everyone has their own motivations and feelings on this. Is her friendship worth the pain of seeing her with someone else? What kind of friend do you feel that she has been lately? Which is going to contribute to your integrity?
I don't know if its so much an ultimatum or just a probable consequence of the decisions she's made. Others might feel differently.
I'm going to go out on a limb here - are you afraid of your own aggression?
M: 32 W: 29 T: 9 Years M: 4 Years I hit rock bottom: 2/11 PA admitted: 4/11 WAW: 5/11 D filed: 6/11 now: Patience, wisdom, and growth - hopefully.
By the way, Song, I'm currently in the process of purchasing my Kindle version of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." I read just a couple of reviews for the book and realized that the thing was practically written for me. I am a "nice guy," and I think that my nice-guy-ism did a lot of damage to our relationship. I have no doubt that I'm probably going to devour this book in just a couple of days.
I'm really glad you took my suggestions the way you did west.
It's hard to know how to communicate with someone you have never met.
Read it. Read the other posts here. And think about it.
Remember.
There is a universe between being too friendly right now and being a dick.
It's that space in-between you need to find.
Compassionate.
Yet firm and strong.
It's not easy. I get it. But work on it.
Be well man.
BITS
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.
I've done the cold and distant with my husband. He accepted it and became cold and distant with me. We've done that now for 7 weeks - today I changed my mind and decided to be friendly to my H. Love blossoms from friendship - I'm not being overly friendly with him, but I changed my tact. He was friendly back to me - but I'm not talking to him about OW, and his love life etc, but I want him to know I'll be here when/if he needs me.
H 34, W 36 T 13.5 M 8.5 C 6yo twins S 6/5/11 OW 7/6/11 OW moves in 9/18/11
West I understand this idea of wanting to be friends with your W.
It is too early for you to seek that kind of R with your W.
Why?
Because you are still in the "if I can only get her to come back" stage.
By being nice to her. Sacrificing yourself to the R. Getting her back at any cost.
These are not good goals
and
Not good how they make you feel.
How does it make you feel when you speak to her and know the OM is there?
Really?
Friendship at that cost?
She is not going to come back to you because you are nice to her. She wants you to be nice to her because it relieves her guilt but she won't come back to you because of it.
What are you goals right now West?
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
Gosh, I don't know. I mean, a lot of me really wants to not be friends with her anymore because this whole thing tears me up so badly inside. I really don't want to communicate the message to her that I think that her new relationship is okay, because it's totally not. And I'm worried that being "friends" with her is going to inadvertently convey that message. The thing is, when I tried telling her that what she was doing was wrong, she only backed away further and held on tighter to it.
However, at the same time, I also know that many WAS' feel a lot of guilt about what they're doing, even if they don't show it or want to look at it within themselves. I'm not necessarily being nice to her because I want her back but because I want to get in touch with that "guilty" side of her, the side that's rational and actually does feel remorse. I don't know. I know that I would feel a lot better if I didn't have to talk to her anymore, but I don't want her to think that I'm not here for her, either.
but I don't want her to think that I'm not here for her, either.
What are you there for her for?
What is it you think she needs from you that you need to be there for right now?
Originally Posted By: West
I'm not necessarily being nice to her because I want her back but because I want to get in touch with that "guilty" side of her, the side that's rational and actually does feel remorse.
This sounds like you are trying to control the situation through guilt.
And
That you think if she feels guilty she might come back?
Guilt applied directly by the LBS usually is received with anger. Then followed by your anger.
You haven't been through the anger phase yet West.
I might submit you are still in denial. Your W is having an affair and your R will not have any chance until she decides to end it and work on your M.
Those are the brutal facts.
and this
Originally Posted By: West
a lot of me really wants to not be friends with her anymore because this whole thing tears me up so badly inside.
causes you pain and inhibits your healing and growth.
The best chance, THE BEST CHANCE you have to save your M is to save yourself first.
That is what you control.
DETACH. DETACH. DETACH.
From a place of clarity you will find yourself again.
Then maybe. Maybe. She will find you again.
My goal is to some day be the person my dog thinks I am
You all are saying some really great things, things that I'm really starting to agree with. I'm really beginning to feel like true detachment is in order. "No More Mr. Nice Guy" explains that Nice Guys are really afraid of being abandoned, so they act extra nice and pleasing to their partner and try to avoid conflict. But, as I'm reading, it only backfires and causes the partner to lose respect for the Nice Guy, which only pushes the partner to (ironically) abandon him.
Thing is, stuff like this still hangs me up. It's quoted from the "More Wise Advice From DB-ers" thread. These words, as well as similar words, pushed me toward the "act as friend at all cost" route:
"I was the WAS and because my H wasn't here to pressure me was the whole reason that I came to my senses. I was left to think about things on my own. If he had told me how wrong I was, I would have hated him for it. I know it is almost impossible to do but you have to let the other person think about things. My H was being so nice to me, that is the reason that I came to my senses. There is nothing you can do. The good news is is that the WAS IS having guilt. You can't not have it. You have to wait for the day that the guilt becomes greater than the emotional feelings from the OP. It will most likely happen if you can distance yourself. Once the person is getting everything they want, they will probably feel even guiltier. The other posters are right. You are the enemy right now. You are the one that "caused" her to look elsewhere. I know it's not "right" but that is the mentality. You just have to show her that you aren't the cause anymore. Just my two cents. I know it's not what you wanted to hear but you should know.
(continued)....
Yes, I did have an affair. Unfortunately, a couple of our friends know as well and that actually makes it harder. It is much better if only you know. The embarrassment sometimes is so hard to handle that I have thoughts of throwing our relationship in just because of that. That is something I struggle with every day. Yes, I did have a "foglifting". I have no idea what triggered it and it only lasted for a very brief time. But during that time, I told my husband about it. I truly, truly, truly believe that you being nice to her is the best way to go. The guilt will be unbelievable. Unfortunately, my H is trying to make me 'pay' for my mistakes and it is really pushing me farther away. Even if she gives up the OM, don't punish her for it. You can be angry, mad, sad but tell her about those feelings, don't punish her. There is nothing you can do to make a "foglift" happen but you can definetly be there when it does. That's my advice for you from this point of view. Just be her best friend. She is going to need one more than you know."
In addition, Michele's own DR advocates making each interaction a positive one, even in the case of infidelity that the other partner refuses to end. Not trying to argue against you guys or anything. I'm just trying to bounce ideas around in this thread before I make any final decisions. This constructive criticism and advice are really good for me. Keep it coming.
I know I posted about an hour ago already, but I've been thinking about that conversation I had with her again. You guys are right, I'm not objective at all. I want so badly to have her back that it's almost clouding my vision. See, on the surface of my conversation with W, it seemed truly friendly. She laughed, joked around, and wanted to know what was going on in my life. But now that I think about it, there honestly seemed like there was something far more disrespectful and cruel in her tone. It almost seemed to say to me, "I have all the power over you that I want. I can feel free to have OM as a lover and you as a friend all I want. And I know that you'll be okay with this as long as I want because you never say no. You 'love' me and would do anything for me. Because of that, I don't have to give you anything in return. That's the way this relationship works now!"
Sure, I understand that she's high on the brain chemicals of love right now. And I do understand that she probably does feel guilt on SOME level. But to be honest, my last conversation with her made me feel really uneasy. The way that she acted like what she was doing with OM was no big deal and that she could wave his good qualities in my face all she wanted really makes me angry. I've always been a push-over with her, and whether she's doing this on purpose or not, she's revelling in it now. [edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed] says that a lot of women cross boundaries with their husbands because they know that they're able to, and with each crossed boundary, they lose respect for H.
As much as I love my W, this truly is unacceptable to me. I'm really starting to feel like the next time I talk to her, I'm going to draw a line and say that we both need some space during this time. Otherwise, my brain is going to blow up trying to figure out every possible way to keep my relationship intact. If she wants to be with me, she can figure that out on her own. If not, then I don't want to be with someone who never really loved me that much at all.
I think you've got to find a line - you don't need to be her best friend but when things go sour with OM you want her to come running to you - but you don't want her coming to you now telling you how wonderful OM is etc. I keep my chats with H to the kids, the weather, our friends etc. I don't bring up OW and I don't think he'd dare to either. From talking to someone who left her husband after having an affair she said it was the way her H reacted whilst she was having the a that let her come back. He was friendly, but guarded and distant.
H 34, W 36 T 13.5 M 8.5 C 6yo twins S 6/5/11 OW 7/6/11 OW moves in 9/18/11
