WTF?!?!

[Denver_2010]

[quote=Denver_2010]

90% of what's about to happen is EASILY PREDICTED. Use that to your advantage.

Starsky

Pray tell Starsky? Bc I have absolutely no idea what is about to happen...

[Brian in Hville]

I think you did good Denver. The ball is in her court. You stated it clear enough of what you want and need. If she can't decide, then it is on her.

Brian

[MHL]

Denver,

Bravo!!!!

Now get to work on Denver......I think Harrier said it up thread.....

Don't focus so much on going dark or not responding but rather get out there and do something for Denver.

Fill your life with meaningful things for YOU.

Cheers

[Harrier]

Okay, I'm going to disagree here. A bit.

I would say that Denver is still missing the point. He said he wrote the letter in part to pressure her.

Uhhhh, as that her No. 1 complaint during the months of April, May, June, etc.? he was -- pressuring here.

So what does he do? Pressure her by his own admission. Now it's in a different form, but it's pressure none the less.

I think the dating think is a veiled threat. It may feel good but I don't think it helps your M at all especially in the future. I think the OW admission to her was to pressure her as well.

What's done is done, you know your situation, but I see a lot of the old Denver in that email. This could go one of 2 ways - I hope it gos the good way for your sake.

[Denver_2010]

Okay, I'm going to disagree here. A bit.

I would say that Denver is still missing the point. He said he wrote the letter in part to pressure her.

Uhhhh, as that her No. 1 complaint during the months of April, May, June, etc.? he was -- pressuring here.

So what does he do? Pressure her by his own admission. Now it's in a different form, but it's pressure none the less.

I think the dating think is a veiled threat. It may feel good but I don't think it helps your M at all especially in the future. I think the OW admission to her was to pressure her as well.

What's done is done, you know your situation, but I see a lot of the old Denver in that email. This could go one of 2 ways - I hope it gos the good way for your sake.

I'm not missing the point Harrier. But I'm also not trying to be coy with myself or any of you.

There are two parts to where I am at now.

1) It's been 9 months and I'm tired. I need to stop enabling my W to continue to sit on the fence. So yes, there is intended implied pressure. Yes, I hope that the fear that I really am trying to move on with my life and am opening myself up to the possibility of dating causes a reaction in her ... which in turn triggers a positive move by her.

BUT,

2) I really am at the point that I want to begin moving on. I am here still standing for my M and yes, I would still like to reconcile with my W... but I won't be here for her 12 months from now. And the process of getting used to life without my W needs to start for me now. It will be a process. I don't know how long it will take... but I am beginning that process.

So, that email is my truth... but I guess that it has two different meanings. Not sure if that makes sense.

Denver

[Mach1]

I would suggest moving forward, instead of moving on....but that is just me....

I guess the difference will be your actions while 'living' this....

Or if they just become....more words


Did you make this decision to "rock" her ?

Or because it is time for you to step back and heal ?

[Harrier]

I'm not missing the point Harrier. But I'm also not trying to be coy with myself or any of you.

There are two parts to where I am at now.

1) It's been 9 months and I'm tired. I need to stop enabling my W to continue to sit on the fence. So yes, there is intended implied pressure. Yes, I hope that the fear that I really am trying to move on with my life and am opening myself up to the possibility of dating causes a reaction in her ... which in turn triggers a positive move by her.

BUT,

2) I really am at the point that I want to begin moving on. I am here still standing for my M and yes, I would still like to reconcile with my W... but I won't be here for her 12 months from now. And the process of getting used to life without my W needs to start for me now. It will be a process. I don't know how long it will take... but I am beginning that process.

So, that email is my truth... but I guess that it has two different meanings. Not sure if that makes sense.

Denver

I guess I'm missing the point then. I get that it has been 9 months for you. I empathize in ways you can't imagine. But honestly, if you compare that to the years you might not have been so great to your W, it isn't one. (I'm not saying you were a bad guy 100% of the time or even 30%, but remember you are fighting your W's perception of you in the M, not actual truth)

I agree everyone has a breaking point. Everyone's point is different.

I guess I just kinda see it as the old line about the best revenge is a life well spent. You have a history - at least of what you told us of doing things to get a reaction from W.
1. The flirting at the coffee house.
2. The PF Changes hanging by the bar
3. The OW

I see this as one more thing. I think the actual reason you do this has nothing to do with W and everything to do with you. I mean did the letter need to be sent?

I would have just said something like "We talked about his before."

The best way of detaching is living a life well spent. I'm not saying it's going to be grins 100% of the time. But a lot of it is for you.

That's why I dislike the term detaching. It's like trying to "detach" two pieced of chewed gum from each other.

I'd rather see a focus off your W, off your M, but on yourself. That's how I look at it.

Because I think the only reason you are tired is because you haven't taken the focus off your W or M..even when you were "detaching."

Like I said this can have 2 possible outcomes, but I'd like you to look at what you wrote...

"I do not want my W to return to me because of pressure, manipulation, or any other reason other than she CHOOSES to return because she wants to be with me..."

I hope the letter enables that to happen. Good luck.

[cat04]

Well Denver,

What's done is done. (sigh)

Gotta agree with Harrier, change your focus, which is what you should have been doing all along (in your words, trying to get used to life without her)...

As far as the predictability of what is to come because you have no idea...

She is, at some point, going to try to draw you into R talk. Big R talk. There will probably be anger. There will probably be some blaming...

She will throw bait your way and it is gonna be up to you not to take it...

For you, and I don't usually say this, dark, right now, is your best option...

Because I don't think you can stop yourself from being reactive...

[Denver_2010]

I would suggest moving forward, instead of moving on....but that is just me....

I guess the difference will be your actions while 'living' this....

Or if they just become....more words

I agree Mach. Right now, my plan, my hope, is to move forward... not on. I think that I was pretty clear in that email to W that I am still open to reconciling our M. I just can't go back to where I was from April-July.

Did you make this decision to "rock" her ?

Or because it is time for you to step back and heal ?

What 'decision' did I make? All I did was choose to tell W how I feel about things. I was honest with her. As I told Harrier, I did it for two reasons, 1) with the hopes that it will 'rock' her and shake things loose, and 2) Bc if it doesn't shake things loose, then I need to step back and heal.

So to answer your question, I worded that email for both reasons that you mention.

That's the most honest answer that I can give to you.

I guess I'm missing the point then. I get that it has been 9 months for you. I empathize in ways you can't imagine. But honestly, if you compare that to the years you might not have been so great to your W, it isn't one. (I'm not saying you were a bad guy 100% of the time or even 30%, but remember you are fighting your W's perception of you in the M, not actual truth)

I don't think that you are missing the point Harrier. You make a very valid point. I'm just admitting that you are right... or at least partially right.

ONE reason that I worded the email the way that I did is so that W is clear that she cannot expect me to just be around forever.

I KNOW that this goes against some of the tenants of DB... be patient... time is our friend. I KNOW this.

But yes, 9 months is a long time. No, it is not comparable to the years that W had to put up with me when I wasn't a great H. I realize that. Am I suppose to to sit idly by, let my W believe that she can do whatever she wants for however long that she wants and I will still be here waiting?

I'm willing to be patient with my W... but I am not willing to be a part of her life and let her continue to throw daggers into my heart like I have let her do for the past 6 months.

I agree everyone has a breaking point. Everyone's point is different.

I don't even think that I'm at my breaking point Harrier. I have no plans to go file for D... and like Mach said, I am moving forward, not on.

I just needed to be honest with my W about where I stand. I need to move forward ... and at some time in the future, a point will come when I am moving on to a life without her... A time will come when reconciling will no longer be an option.

I guess I just kinda see it as the old line about the best revenge is a life well spent. You have a history - at least of what you told us of doing things to get a reaction from W.
1. The flirting at the coffee house.
2. The PF Changes hanging by the bar
3. The OW

I see this as one more thing. I think the actual reason you do this has nothing to do with W and everything to do with you. I mean did the letter need to be sent?

I would have just said something like "We talked about his before."

I thought about that Harrier. I talked and debated at length with other bits last night about whether I should respond at all, how I should respond if so, and the wording of a response.

What you suggested would not have been sufficient. W's response would only have been to say that I was still dodging the question. Ultimately, I had to respond to her.

That's why I dislike the term detaching. It's like trying to "detach" two pieced of chewed gum from each other.

That's actually a great point.

I'd rather see a focus off your W, off your M, but on yourself. That's how I look at it.

That's what I was trying to do, what I was prepared to do, beginning with that last R convo that I had with W at the end of July.

But then the casual contacts made by W began screwing with my head. It's hard to hear her tell me that she loves and misses me and NOT stay focused on her and the M.

Like I said this can have 2 possible outcomes, but I'd like you to look at what you wrote...

"I do not want my W to return to me because of pressure, manipulation, or any other reason other than she CHOOSES to return because she wants to be with me..."

I hope the letter enables that to happen. Good luck.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but I understand your point.

I do want her to CHOOSE to come back without pressure and/or manipulation. What I mean by that is that I am done trying to convince her. I'm done apologizing for the past. I'm done trying to spend as much time with her as possible in order to SHOW her that I have changed.

I understand that it can be argued that my email is pressure and manipulation of this kind. And yes, I did admit that it was worded to apply some implied pressure.

But I think that it is different.

IF the idea of possibly losing me... or me dating someone else... is an IMPETUS to W realizing that she truly does miss me, that she truly does want me in her life, and that she truly does want to be married to me, then what I told her in that email, and how I worded it, is a bad thing.

If it causes her to put her head in her hands and say to herself, 'what have I done?', is that a bad thing? Wouldn't that be W coming to a conclusion of her own free will?

When I say that I intended to apply implied pressure that is what I meant...

In other words, I didn't mean it as an ultimatum... "come back to me or I am moving on and dating OWs"...

I meant it as a truth as to where I stand... but I did intend to be very CLEAR about that truth with the HOPE that it is an IMPETUS... with the hope that it would jar loose the traffic jam in her thinking.

I don't know if that makes sense... and I know that I'm going to hear that this is just the lawyer in me talking myself out of a corner, but so be it.

The bottom line is that my situation is at a crossroads and I want my W to understand that. What she does with that information is up to her. I know how I am going to move forward from this point.

And I would suggest that there is a third possible outcome to this. The third being that W takes that information for what it is and does nothing with it. In which case, we both move forward with our lives giving each other time and space, while not knowing what the future holds.

(This is assuming that the 2 possible outcomes that you speak of are 1) that this causes her to commit to working on M, OR 2) this pushes her to end things)

Well Denver,

What's done is done. (sigh)

Why the sigh Cat? I also sensed a (sigh) from 25 too...

I'm not sure what I said to my W that was so terrible or final??

As far as the predictability of what is to come because you have no idea...

She is, at some point, going to try to draw you into R talk. Big R talk. There will probably be anger. There will probably be some blaming...

She will throw bait your way and it is gonna be up to you not to take it...

I'm done talking with W about everything that I did wrong in our past Cat. I've apologized for a million different ways. I need to forgive myself for those things, stop letting W use them as justification for her choices, and I need to leave it up to her as to whether or not she can ever forgive me.

If she wants to go to MC and start working through those things, then I am more than willing. Otherwise, I'm done talking about them.

As for our R? I've made my position clear. There is no in between for me any longer. If she wants me in her life, then she will choose to commit to working on the M. If she doesn't, then she will continue to make the choices that she has been making.... but I will not let her drag me along any longer.

For you, and I don't usually say this, dark, right now, is your best option...

Because I don't think you can stop yourself from being reactive...

LOL...

My plan is to follow LRT as it is set out in DR. I will not initiate contact with my W, but I will not ignore her if she contacts me.

At this time, I do not plan on making any other big moves with my sitch. The ball is in her court.

Denver

[Harrier]

I just wanted to add I was NOT being sarcastic. I really do hope the letter gets your wife thinking in way that she comes back to because of the person you've become.

I don't think you want her to come back b/c of pressure or fear alone.

I guess I would have just worded what you said differently, if I was going to write something like that. For example, I wouldn't have used the world "detach" in an email.

I won't judge you for being lawerly.