Youngster's WAW Chooses OM, Now She's in Love!

[Truegritter]

That's really my main goal right now: to just be happy.

That is a good goal West.

Also it is good to do a little digging into your M and more importantly yourself.

A question for you that helped me:

You know WHAT happened or you a trying still to answer that.

The question is WHY it happened.

And you can lose your way real quick if you focus on her whys.

So you let the relationship get out of balance. You became a yes man.

WHY?

Start digging there West.

Also what complaints did she have against you? The ones that sting?

Those are the things to look at in yourself. Things maybe you want to change?

[westcoastfella]

Oh yes, believe me, this is a great time for me to look at my own shortcomings in the relationship and I have not wasted time in that department. I realize that there were things that I could have done better. For example, the answer to your offered WHY? is simple: I made preserving the relationship at all costs for my own benefit more important than doing the RIGHT THINGS for the relationship. In order to do this, I often communicated in a very shifty way about topics that might hurt her feelings, i.e. sugar-coating, long silences made in order to keep from having to answer questions, etc. However, my motive in doing this really didn't have anything to do with her feelings; I was more afraid of invoking an angry reaction out of her (fear of the other person is a great instigator of imbalance). She often told me that, had I just come out with the truth in these situations like it was no big deal, she probably wouldn't be upset. The very idea that I REACTED as though these things needed to be kept from her was what set her off. She then felt that these things really did matter to me, so they then mattered to her all the more.

I also tried to counterbalance being a yes man by arguing and being defensive. However, what I didn't realize was that by "arguing," I often adopted a very punishing and condescending tone. I realize now that you can argue and be assertive while still being loving and non-accusatory. The defensiveness really didn't help things, either; if she would come up to me with a complaint, I would often try to put the blame right back on her, which never failed to tick her off. I would feel self-righteous and would try to avoid blame. I'm betting that if I had just taken her complaint into stead and did what I could to address it, she might have eventually agreed that we both needed to do things differently. The magic of 180s in relationships, everybody...

[Truegritter]

I made preserving the relationship at all costs for my own benefit more important than doing the RIGHT THINGS for the relationship.

Welcome to a club with a lot of members.

Do you now understand at what price this comes? It is worth it? It is healthy for you?

However, what I didn't realize was that by "arguing," I often adopted a very punishing and condescending tone.

When we sacrifice ourselves for a relationship it never comes out paying you back.

When it doesn't you get resentful? Angry?

And

I would feel self-righteous and would try to avoid blame.

Then

The fixing begins. People don't like to be fixed. She was making (and makes now) decisions that she thought would make her happy.

People don't make intentionally bad choices. It is how they look at their own situation and determine their own self preservation.

So understanding that, you can maybe get to a place of peace with what has happened here.

Ok West we got to the first layer of topsoil.

I understand that your motivation was not to rock the boat. To keep the peace.

Why? Why were you afraid of letting her feel the consequences of her own actions?

Why did you allow or choose to be the martyr?

[westcoastfella]

I guess because I don't know how to be someone who rocks the boat. I've always been very charming, personable, and agreeable. Most people like me because of this. When I entered into a relationship, I didn't yet realize that you sometimes have to rock the boat, albeit in an assertive rather than aggressive tone. Thing was, I wasn't sure else how to proceed. I noticed that the more that I fought against her opinion, the more tightly she held onto it. Which is fine, I guess. In her mind, she was right and I was wrong, and if you ever try to tell anybody that THEIR view is wrong, see how far you get.

My W called me last night but wasn't able to get a hold of me. I called her back and left a voicemail asking what was up. She then texted me today to give her a call after I got off work. I was sweating bullets all the way home. The court date for our separation is tomorrow, so I dreamed up all kinds of things that she would talk about. Would she restart the pushing toward the D? Or might she possibly tell me not to go through with it? Which would it be, the lady or the tiger?

As I found out, it was really neither. She simply called asking if we were "good" for tomorrow. I said that we were. After a pause, she asked if I wanted to talk to her some. I said that I could if she wanted to. We then launched into a very friendly conversation. Lots of jokes were made, and her tone was extremely nice toward me. She also wanted to actually know about what was going on in my life. She asked me (for what seems like the fourth or fifth time) if I've gone on any dates yet. There's no jealousy in it; it's almost as if she can't wait until I get set up with somebody.

She's also very much in lovey-dovey mode with OM. He was in the room with her for part of the conversation, and they had some very lovey-type banter while I was on the phone with her. Already he's getting very possessive and whiny. He expressed dissatisfaction multiple times that she was on the phone with me, and he also informed her that she was no longer allowed to wear a t-shirt that she wears as a night shirt that used to belong to me. Oh, really, OM? YOU'RE jealous and insecure? You only stole a married woman away from a good relationship. Whatever might you have to fear? Friggin' jerk. I don't care how many nice things she says about him. He KNOWS what he did was wrong, and a person who KNOWS that can't be a very good person at all.

She talked about him to me during this conversation. She did mention that he "acts like a child" a lot of the time, but she also admitted in a very dreamy voice that "he makes me feel like the only girl in the whole world." As far as I know, these are the "love chemicals" in her brain talking. OM can do no wrong in her book.

Well, as a positive note, she still called me to talk. Why would she bother to call me if she's got some guy at home who she can talk with all she wants? And why bother to call me about the separation stuff if she could have just texted me? She's very serious about the "staying friends" thing, and I'm cool with that. Like someone else on DB.com stated so eloquently, "by preserving the friendship, you always leave the door open to something more."

In the meantime, I'm really intent on detaching. I can't keep living my life constantly thinking about her and living in fear of what she's going to decide next in terms of our R. It's not a life at all. I'm thinking very seriously about just going out on some casual dates during this time and really emotionally letting myself go from her. After all, she's the only woman that I've ever seriously DATED, let alone anything else. Might as well use this space for something. Plus, I'd feel a lot better about this if we both "felt" like friends. I'm tired of thinking of her as "the woman that I want but can't have." I'm not going to spend this whole time "waiting" for her. I'm done with that.

[♪CS♪]

Oh boy west....

I don't know how to be someone who rocks the boat

I started reading this and didn't know exactly what you meant. But after I finished I realized. OMG. Time to rock the f'ing boat!!!

He was in the room with her for part of the conversation, and they had some very lovey-type banter while I was on the phone with her.

Not Acceptable!!! This is your W!!!!!

Already he's getting very possessive and whiny. He expressed dissatisfaction multiple times that she was on the phone with me, and he also informed her that she was no longer allowed to wear a t-shirt that she wears as a night shirt that used to belong to me. Oh, really, OM? YOU'RE jealous and insecure? You only stole a married woman away from a good relationship. Whatever might you have to fear? Friggin' jerk. I don't care how many nice things she says about him. He KNOWS what he did was wrong, and a person who KNOWS that can't be a very good person at all.

No he is NOT a good person. But I wouldn't assume he knows jack [censored].

But it also takes two to tango west. Take a good look at your W right now. Who she is NOW. Or better stated. What she is doing NOW. We often can't get the idea of who they were out of our head. So we completely ignore the reality of the situation.

She talked about him to me during this conversation. She did mention that he "acts like a child" a lot of the time, but she also admitted in a very dreamy voice that "he makes me feel like the only girl in the whole world."

Again. Not acceptable at all.

Well, as a positive note

There was nothing positive about any of this.

Why would she bother to call me if she's got some guy at home who she can talk with all she wants? And why bother to call me about the separation stuff if she could have just texted me?

Why? I can't say for sure. But my guess? Because she does still care for you. BUT. And it's a big one. She DOES NOT respect you.

For her to do what she did in front of you shows ZERO respect.

I'm cool with that.

Really? Even after your fear runs out?

Like someone else on DB.com stated so eloquently, "by preserving the friendship, you always leave the door open to something more."

NOT when they are in an active A! NOT when she is rubbing your face in it.

I'm not going to spend this whole time "waiting" for her. I'm done with that.

This is great! Now as I read this your W is your "only" correct?

So, you need to find your "man card" so to speak?

Putting your D in things is not going to give it to you. It's simply a process of obtaining courage and strength.

Now. I know I came across tough here. But a big thing to remember.

NONE of what I am saying means you start acting like an A'hole. Few words are needed. It means clear, strong boundaries.

YOU developing strength, compassion and honor. And then LIVING it.

There is a book recommended here "No more Mr. Nice Guy." I think it could be a good one for you.

I hope others give you suggestions as far as how to more clearly deliver the message.

Peace man.

[Truegritter]

In the meantime, I'm really intent on detaching. I can't keep living my life constantly thinking about her and living in fear of what she's going to decide next in terms of our R.

You need to do better at this. It is very hard but you must remove yourself from the trauma that your emotions cause you because of your attachment to the relationship.

You will not be able to think clearly and do the work you need to do on yourself to heal and move forward until you do this.

which is why

I'm thinking very seriously about just going out on some casual dates during this time and really emotionally letting myself go from her.

I wouldn't recommend this ^^^^.

It is a crutch but worse because you involve someone else.

And it will distract you from your work.

This is a process West and you can't skip steps.

I wish you could.

[westcoastfella]

Song: Thanks very much for posting your advice. Your words forced me to do a lot of soul-searching today. I spent several hours thinking about it: Which path do I want to take? I finally decided that, based on what I've read and seen, I want to keep going down the road that I'm going. Yes, what she's doing is immensely disrespectful, and I shouldn't have to take it. I shouldn't have to be her friend during this time, and I shouldn't have to listen to her crap about OM. But the thing is, I firmly believe that this side of her is not the "real" her and unable to be reasoned with. I've read enough to know that right now, she's as reliable as someone on cocaine (it's true! I read that people who are "in love" have the same brain chemistry as someone using cocaine). For me, now is not the time to try to set boundaries or cast disdain on how she's acting. She's not yet functioning on a level where she could understand anything like that.

The thing is, Michele herself advocates that one keep looking at positive baby steps. I've been pulling back while still being friendly over the phone, and so far:

--She's called me almost five or six times over the last month without me having to initiate the contact, and all of them were made because she wants to know how and what I'm doing
--She's expressed doubt about the D and wants to "feel out" the separation first, even though I did not raise the subject and she had no reason to raise it with me

Those are pretty good despite the "rollercoaster" moments I'm preparing for. They're definitely way better than two months ago when I kept trying to reason with her and tell her that what she was doing was wrong. That route did not work for my sitch whatsoever... I've also been reading a lot of stories written by WAS and almost all of them admit that, though their "fog-lifting" came completely by itself with almost nothing that the LBS did, it was usually combined with the fact that LBS was kind and friendly thru the fog despite WAS' horrible behavior. It began to compound WAS' guilt: "I'm treating this person like crap and yet they're still being kind to me!" However, if I DO get to the point where I just can't take it anymore, with nothing changing, I will employ the "ultimatum." But I'm not there yet. I will know when I am.

Gritter AND Song: I agree with both of you that dating other people will probably confuse me and will not solve any problems. I had a moment today where that realization hit me. The thing is, W is acting very much as though she is feeling guilt and needs certain things in order not to feel it anymore. One of those is me seeing other people, as she raises that question almost every time we talk. If I'm seeing other people, then she doesn't have to feel bad about this anymore.

The other one is the legal separation. I just know that she's feeling guilt about this SOMEWHERE in her mind, and she feels that if we're legally separated, she's able to pursue OM guilt-free. As it turns out, I had to call her today and tell her that we were not yet legally S'd because the judge told me that we were missing an additional form. She became very irritated because she too called the court and was not told that we needed that additional documentation. It really hit me then that the reason that she was pushing for S had little to do with me; it had a whole lot more to do with how she's feeling. (After all, she did state in the beginning that she was pursuing S because of "moral reasons" -- seeing OM while being married didn't gel with her.)

Thanks for the advice, fellas. We'll see what happens.

[aeolianchaos]

West,

Which path do I want to take? I finally decided that, based on what I've read and seen, I want to keep going down the road that I'm going. Yes, what she's doing is immensely disrespectful, and I shouldn't have to take it. I shouldn't have to be her friend during this time, and I shouldn't have to listen to her crap about OM. But the thing is, I firmly believe that this side of her is not the "real" her and unable to be reasoned with

What paths do you feel are there for you, as options? Can you describe them?

What she is doing is BS. I understand your feelings - and I think I even follow your logic. It's good reason not to close the door and get divorced ASAP. It's good reason not to abandon all hope. But what she did was blatantly disrespectful AT BEST.

Her being 'under the influence' doesn't make it any less disrespectful, and you tolerating it doesn't make you any more strong or respectable in her eyes.

I think at the least, you set a boundary for yourself - don't bother telling her, because she won't get it, but you can decide that 'I'm not going to talk w/ her about this subject, and I'm not going to be around her while she's doing this.'

As TG suggested - none of this has to be done in a hostile way. It can be as loving and as understanding as you can muster. But you need to respect yourself enough to establish some kind of boundaries for your own well being.

None of this contradicts DBing or BSFT - you can still be focused on the first signs of positive change, and you can continue to refine your strategies and techniques to figure out what really works for your situation.

It began to compound WAS' guilt: "I'm treating this person like crap and yet they're still being kind to me!" However, if I DO get to the point where I just can't take it anymore, with nothing changing, I will employ the "ultimatum.

Guilt sometimes takes a while to manifest overtly for the WAS. For my WAW she thought she was 'over' feeling guilty by the time she walked out. Now she seems to be coming face to face with feelings she wasn't really 'getting' at the time.

What, in your mind, is the ultimatum?

[westcoastfella]

Chaos: Well, I guess I can understand that when you put it that way. The thing is, it's not like I talked with her at length on the subject. Whenever she said wonderful things about OM, I honestly didn't say anything much back to her. I'm just not sure how I can set a boundary without me somehow letting her know that he bothers me. Any ideas on this are greatly appreciated. If there's some way I can avoid talking about OM with her or having him in the same room while she's speaking to me, I'm all ears.

Having thought about it a bit on my mid-day run, I never feel that my W is "waving" OM in my face or trying to purposely hurt my feelings. Instead, I get the very strong feeling that she's trying to justify what she's doing with him to anybody who will listen, including myself. I had the same exact feeling when she told me about all of his AMAZING qualities when her A first began: like she was justifying out loud. It's almost like, if she were really a rational person during this time, she would understand on a very basic level that saying this kind of stuff to an ex would be incredibly hurtful. It only reinforces in my mind just how messed up she is right now.

I guess, if we get to the point where she wants to really get the D going and that she's leaving me for OM, I would have to communicate to her that I would be at the point where I just couldn't be "friends" with her any longer. That if she really thinks that OM is all she needs, then it shouldn't matter much if I withdraw from her life. Yeah. Somehow, I feel quite comfortable with that ultimatum. It would be one that I would feel very much at home.

[westcoastfella]

By the way, Song, I'm currently in the process of purchasing my Kindle version of "No More Mr. Nice Guy." I read just a couple of reviews for the book and realized that the thing was practically written for me. I am a "nice guy," and I think that my nice-guy-ism did a lot of damage to our relationship. I have no doubt that I'm probably going to devour this book in just a couple of days.